Thanks for everyone's dedication to this, it's really touching. I hope these pups find a way out of the shelters there, they're both stunning & it's a shame they're there to begin with ~
My dad is a council man for the Kanagwa prefecture and I can write a letter to the Osaka prefectual governor. Riki came from Japan on a plane and he was just fine. I'm sure its not comfortable but its better then sitting in a shelter.
I guess the one other issue would be funding this "operation". With 3 kids, expensive hobbies, and a hunry pack of hunting dogs, I'm gonna have to calculate what its going to take to get these dogs. I will call some shipping companies and find out what is involved in transporting dogs. I can get them from Japan in august but between now and then I have to convince my dad to care for them.
Not a 100% but I'm gonna do my best to figure out a plan and rescue these dogs.
Well if it's more than $1400/dog then it's cheaper to have 2 people fly to Japan and bring them back as baggage. If I remember correctly, it was going to cost about $2-3k to ship my cat to/from Japan so someone going along might be the best course of action. If it's not till August I know we'll be able to help out financially.
Thanks Gen, i hope we'll get a positive response from the Osaka governor. I will be willing to help fund this "operation", and please let me know if you need any other help. I can figure out something to watch them til Aug if your dad cant...im in kanagawa too. let me know what i can do or if any help is needed.
So I guess this must be some sort of agreement ARK has with the local authorities? Sounds pretty wacky to me, as none of the rescues I work with over here have that sort of limitation on their activities.
As with all bureaucratic red tape, there's usually some loophole to be found. I have a lot of friends down in the Kansai area, so if I could get some sort of clarification on the exact 'rules' for adoption, I may be able to help fish them out and get them sent up here.
Guess it'll probably be faster if I just whip up an email to ARK directly and ask about their re-homing policies. I re-read their website policy, and found nothing in there about needing to reside in the local area.
Gen, how much did it cost you to ship Riki over there? I guess I have mixed feelings about shipping dogs halfway around the world to new homes. Someone suggested once that there might be more interest in some Akitas we were looking to re-home, over in the States. While this is probably true, I kind of cringe at all the time and finances that would go into the shipping.
Hope we can figure something out for these pups, fingers crossed
Shigeru san no cost when I brought Riki over. He was part of my luggage. One thing I did was to physically make sure he was on board withme. When I transfered a flight from LA to SD the air line company was about to put him on another flight but I made them put Riki in the passenger area of the plane. But being post 911 I'm not sure how that will work.
My only thing is I'm still trying to get Yuki over here and so I probably can only take one of those dogs. Any one up for a road (flight) trip to Japan???
Thanks every one I will keep people posted......I hope this works out.
I've been hearing changes in air flight rules, due to gas issues. I know that around here, they were starting to charge for carry-on luggage and per weight(or bag) of luggage in cargo.
I don't disagree that it is possible for dogs to fly across the pacific safely (most of the time) I just wondered if that was the best thing for *these* dogs. It is a lot of trouble for them and their supporting humans as well as considerable expense. I don't know what the dog adoption situation in Japan is like, maybe it is so difficult for the native dog breeds that their best chance is to emigrate? In that case it might be worth it. It's just that there is a little more to this than just springing the pooches from the clutches of some cranky bureaucrats and arranging air transport.
To enter the US, dogs need at least a certificate of a rabies vaccination dated at least 30 days prior to entry, otherwise they may be quarantined at the shippers expense for up to 30 days. I don't know whether the certificate has to be in English or not yet, that seems a little unclear: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dq/animal/dogs.htm Also see: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/animals/animal_import/animal_imports_pets.shtml
According to the AKC, unaccompanied dogs entering the US need to be handled by a "registered/licensed shipping/cargo/freight agent or broker" as of new US federal regulations put into place just last February: http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=3749
Finally, many US states have different rules that must be followed, depending on where the dogs enter the country: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/animals/animal_import/animal_imports_states.shtml
Each airline seems to have slightly different rules about what kind of crate, supplies, instructions, health certificates etc are required. The AKC has a list of links to different airlines' policy pages: http://www.akc.org/pdfs/canine_legislation/airline_chart.pdf In general, they seem to require a large, metal crate with ventilation on all sides (I guess that is in case the crate gets pushed up against another piece of cargo).
Prices seem to vary by airline and weight, but are often not very clearly described. American Airlines has a price sheet, however: https://www.aacargo.com/downloads/rates/i_pps_rates.pdf;jsessionid=EVJJZYYQ2CZMQCSOQMXCFEY
This map explains what the US regional codes used in the price sheet are: https://www.aacargo.com/downloads/rates/PPS_zonemap.pdf;jsessionid=EVJJZYYQ2CZMQCSOQMXCFEY
According to the price sheet, if the two dogs are under 20 kg (about 44 lbs) they would each cost 38,100 yen or less (or about $388) to fly to most parts of the US from Narita at the current exchange rate. The Southeastern US is more, for some reason.
$388 is not really too bad, but the costs for the paperwork, veterinary certificates, agent fees, boarding the dogs during any waiting periods, fancy metal crate, etc, could mount up fast. Also, this means a lot of legwork for lingmorton or for shishiinu's dad, or whoever was handling things on the Japan end.
I would have no problem paying $388 airfare for one dog if I were going to adopt it, but I am a little concerned about all the other costs or potential complications. I don't mean to be a pain, I just like to look at worst case scenarios before committing myself to a situation that could compromise the safety and happiness of other creatures (humans, dogs or whatever.)
I have a feeling that what led these dogs to that kill shelter is that they were declared as "dangerous" or something. Who knows why that happened; it probably doesn't matter, at this point it is likely impossible to remove that stamp of "dangerous" since somebody would have to be punished for doing their job.
My thinking is that Osaka-fu can't let the dogs be adopted outside of its borders, because then it would be allowing "dangerous" dogs out, and there is likely some kind of law against that. Then there is probably a law on the books in Osaka-shi and Sakai-shi saying, no "dangerous" dogs are allowed here.
The question is, really, whether there is a law against allowing "dangerous" dogs outside of the country. There may not be such a thing. However, it boils down to the dogs needing somebody to stamp them as okay for export. How do we get that stamp?
I.e.: How do we get these dogs into a legal status where they are exportable? That's a question for anybody fluent in Japanese.
About writing a letter to the governor of Osaka-fu, I recommend that you remind him that the Shikoku is a Natural Treasure / Living Monument of Japan and has been since 1938. If these dogs are considered dangerous in Japan, then why not allow us Americans to take them away. We have lots of room in America and most of us have big yards where the dogs can run. Also, we are a very dog-oriented culture and we keep dangerous dogs like these in our homes all the time....after a few weeks of exposure to the soft, leisurely American style of living these dogs will become as tame as kittens...we'll feed them hamburgers and drive them around in SUVs and soon they'll be too big to move very fast. Two specimens of a Living Monument will be saved from destruction, two dangerous dogs will be permanently off the streets, and nobody will have to lose any face.
Also, I would donate a couple of bucks to any collection fund that were set up to bring these dogs over here, though I think the person who adopts them should bear most of the cost since they'll be your dogs and probably a lot of work.
Stranger, the Japanese are not dog people - they like small, toy-sized dogs unless they are Serious About Dogs, and most Japanese dog geeks go after western breeds anyway. The Japanese breeds we love on these forums, with the exception of the ubitquitous Shiba Inu, have a reputation of being rough hunting dogs. To most Japanese people that means they are "dangerous breeds," though even the Japanese that are more enlightened on the topic realize that they require a lot of work and a lot of attention. Since most Japanese live a lifestyle that is most similar to that of a Manhattan resident and don't have a lot of their own space, finding a local owner for two dogs like this will be a very difficult task. I bet you these two dogs aren't hunting dogs, which might mean a hunter would think they'd be too tough to train to be of any use.
Shipping a dog seems to be a lot of stress for them, but there are many stories of it on this forum, and it looks like they pretty much get over it and get on with their lives. Also, I haven't seen any verifiable horror stories.
In general, my feeling is that extracting these dogs from Japan will be the absolute best thing for them. Or any similar dog in their situation.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that we Gaijin lovers of Japanese dogs should consider forming a group for rescuing nihonken from Japan. If we could establish a relationship of some kind with organizations like ARK in Japan and do whatever we need to do to get a process for extradicting Japan's unwanted Shikoku, Kishi, Kai, Akita, etc.
Be careful with that thought, Kenshi, some people will complain with that sort of dealing since we have so many shelter dogs in the US as is. I know plenty of people who complain when other try to rescue a dog from another state, much less another country. With that said, I'd love to see those shikas come over here, just for the sake that there are plenty of people on this forum alone who really wanted this breed, and desire the added bonus of rescuing one. Heck, the minute this post was made, they would have already had a home with a forum member, if it weren't for this rule.
We'd have to be aggressive about that in our PR. But I expect existing breed-specific rescue organizations face similar problems. In the end, it'll still be quite pricey to do - though I imagine it will be cheaper than getting a puppy from O Ikon or Akashima. So you've got private individuals spending private funds to rescue a dog from Japan.
The bigger concern is what is basically the problem right here - how do we convince the Japanese to let us take their stray National Treasures?
Here is what i think would work best. Since there are many people offering to take these dogs in ...I think that they should pay for all the expenses...just like if they were going to import a dog from a breeder. Forum members can donate money to these people to help out with the costs too. So, for anyone who is seriously interested, please step up and let us know (Kristin, Jen, Stranger, Casey, Beth?). Maybe the people living in Japan or have connects in Japan can get these dogs out of the shelter and transport them to the airport. From there, the dog(s) would be shipped directly to the person. This way, they will not have to be shipped to CA and then shipped/transported again. Once someone steps up, we can get a letter out and hope for approval - if we get approved for the adoption and transporting of the dog, we're good to go.
Is it possible for anyone in Japan to go visit these dogs and report back their personalities? This will be a big risk for any potential adopter as with importing any dog...but, I see more risk here, since these dogs are shelter dogs. There is not much background on these dogs and you will not be able to meet them before you make your decision.
I would be willing to foster, going through heartworm with Henson right now I'm not sure how much more of an expense I could handle/contribute - but I am serious to want to help in any way possible.
Shipping these dogs to the east coast would be rough on them, though, wouldn't it? Much longer than from Japan to the west coast, right?
Maybe, if Shishiinu's father is caring for them until they could be brought here, he could give a basic assumption to their personalities. From what I gather, Shishiinu's father has a dog or two, so he could see how dog reactive these shikas are at least.
I would love to have one, but I'm actually in the process of getting a pups through Peggy from a 2010 or later litter, so I feel that it would be best to give this opportunity to someone else. But, if there is anything I could do to help (donation, transport), don't hesitate to ask. I'll be going to the Wisconsin Meet up, so if someone wants one and can't go, I'd be happy to bring one to them.
Well, for this topic, a lot has gone on today while I was traveling...
Jen and I would be willing to donate some $ to help these dogs.
I do find it kinda strange that we (a group of enthusiasts in AMERICA) are the ones that may be rescuing these dogs. You would think they would be rescued in Japan, I mean the dogs are rare over there too.
This makes me think Kenshi is on to something - we may not be getting the full story. It would be really bad to rescue these dogs, bring them over here, and then find they are abused and too reactive to live comfortable in a forum members home - then what?
So, my word of caution is this: If you are REALLY interested in saving these dogs, and want to give them a home, please make sure you are 100% prepared to take on a dog that could potentially be a serious issue.
Having said all that, if it does cost around $400 to ship one, add some extra cost for a crate and etc... So lets say it's $800. That's not a bad price really. If someone is looking to get a Shikoku, and is willing to rescue one of these, the cost would be less than buying from a kennel in North America.
Also, as I said before, they can always live here with us (Jen and I have the experience to handle them). So if they where brought over and found to be a "bad fit", please know that they can come here - please don't let them end up in a shelter in America - I would really hope that everyone does everything they can to not have that be the case.
Jen and I could also help with fostering them, if needed.
What Jen and I can't do is fly to Japan or take any long road trips right now, we have lots of that already planned for this year.
PS: I really think the best thing for these dogs would be to find them a home in Japan. If we could all work to get them out of that shelter and prefecture and into the hands of someone like Shigeru (who knows the rescue system well over there), then we will be giving these dogs the shot at a happy life they deserve... my point is, they don't have to come all the way to America to give them a good home.
The only way we could help is financially and even then, it wont even start to cover the cost of exporting them.
If only my grandma was younger, I know she'd be willing to take a dog in. But I doubt they would want a 75 year old lady from Hiroshima taking in a young dog lol.
what everyone said makes perfect sense. i am most likely to make a day trip down to ARK at the end of this month, so i can visit them and see how their temperament is like, or if Gen or her dad is going to visit them, or Shigeru. Not sure what the outcome will be after writing to the governors office, but if the dogs are allowed to leave the prefecture, may make things a little easier for adoption, i can try to spread the word around the bases here too. But if no1 is willing to take them and they are allowed to leave the country, its nice to know there are potential homes here on the forum.
I look forward to your report--the ARK website gives me the impression they are not trying to trick anyone into taking traumatically messed up dogs--they mention a number of medium-minor issues, but nothing really bad. Independent confirmation is a big help though, especially since the breed itself will be somewhat unfamiliar territory for most in the US. Probably ones first Shikoku should not be one suffering from a major personality disorder, unless you are a pro, or the near equivalent.
i honestly do not think they will be allowed on space-a. tried calling the terminal here today but seems like they are very busy, so i emailed them. if they can travel space-a, i will be able to take them to the states to whoever is able to take them in. im no pro when it comes to dog behavior/personality, but i think i can still judge if the dog has any major issues, i dont know if any other forum members in japan are interested in making the trip down to Osaka, but i am pretty much going there for sure at the end of this month, any1 interested to visit together let me know.
I am willing to help anyway I can. (except with taking them in or $$ unfortunately). I live in CA so if anyone needs west coast airport pick up and transport I'm available. I am also willing to travel or fly out if needed, but unfortunately do not have the extra $$ to do so. As of the end of this month I will be without a job and have a TON of free time until June 22nd when I start full time school.
Comments
I guess the one other issue would be funding this "operation". With 3 kids, expensive hobbies, and a hunry pack of hunting dogs, I'm gonna have to calculate what its going to take to get these dogs. I will call some shipping companies and find out what is involved in transporting dogs. I can get them from Japan in august but between now and then I have to convince my dad to care for them.
Not a 100% but I'm gonna do my best to figure out a plan and rescue these dogs.
I will be willing to help fund this "operation", and please let me know if you need any other help.
I can figure out something to watch them til Aug if your dad cant...im in kanagawa too. let me know what i can do or if any help is needed.
As with all bureaucratic red tape, there's usually some loophole to be found. I have a lot of friends down in the Kansai area, so if I could get some sort of clarification on the exact 'rules' for adoption, I may be able to help fish them out and get them sent up here.
Guess it'll probably be faster if I just whip up an email to ARK directly and ask about their re-homing policies. I re-read their website policy, and found nothing in there about needing to reside in the local area.
Gen, how much did it cost you to ship Riki over there? I guess I have mixed feelings about shipping dogs halfway around the world to new homes. Someone suggested once that there might be more interest in some Akitas we were looking to re-home, over in the States. While this is probably true, I kind of cringe at all the time and finances that would go into the shipping.
Hope we can figure something out for these pups, fingers crossed
My only thing is I'm still trying to get Yuki over here and so I probably can only take one of those dogs. Any one up for a road (flight) trip to Japan???
Thanks every one I will keep people posted......I hope this works out.
To enter the US, dogs need at least a certificate of a rabies vaccination dated at least 30 days prior to entry, otherwise they may be quarantined at the shippers expense for up to 30 days. I don't know whether the certificate has to be in English or not yet, that seems a little unclear: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dq/animal/dogs.htm Also see: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/animals/animal_import/animal_imports_pets.shtml
According to the AKC, unaccompanied dogs entering the US need to be handled by a "registered/licensed shipping/cargo/freight agent or broker" as of new US federal regulations put into place just last February: http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=3749
Finally, many US states have different rules that must be followed, depending on where the dogs enter the country: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/animals/animal_import/animal_imports_states.shtml
Each airline seems to have slightly different rules about what kind of crate, supplies, instructions, health certificates etc are required. The AKC has a list of links to different airlines' policy pages: http://www.akc.org/pdfs/canine_legislation/airline_chart.pdf In general, they seem to require a large, metal crate with ventilation on all sides (I guess that is in case the crate gets pushed up against another piece of cargo).
Prices seem to vary by airline and weight, but are often not very clearly described. American Airlines has a price sheet, however: https://www.aacargo.com/downloads/rates/i_pps_rates.pdf;jsessionid=EVJJZYYQ2CZMQCSOQMXCFEY
This map explains what the US regional codes used in the price sheet are: https://www.aacargo.com/downloads/rates/PPS_zonemap.pdf;jsessionid=EVJJZYYQ2CZMQCSOQMXCFEY
According to the price sheet, if the two dogs are under 20 kg (about 44 lbs) they would each cost 38,100 yen or less (or about $388) to fly to most parts of the US from Narita at the current exchange rate. The Southeastern US is more, for some reason.
$388 is not really too bad, but the costs for the paperwork, veterinary certificates, agent fees, boarding the dogs during any waiting periods, fancy metal crate, etc, could mount up fast. Also, this means a lot of legwork for lingmorton or for shishiinu's dad, or whoever was handling things on the Japan end.
I would have no problem paying $388 airfare for one dog if I were going to adopt it, but I am a little concerned about all the other costs or potential complications. I don't mean to be a pain, I just like to look at worst case scenarios before committing myself to a situation that could compromise the safety and happiness of other creatures (humans, dogs or whatever.)
My thinking is that Osaka-fu can't let the dogs be adopted outside of its borders, because then it would be allowing "dangerous" dogs out, and there is likely some kind of law against that. Then there is probably a law on the books in Osaka-shi and Sakai-shi saying, no "dangerous" dogs are allowed here.
The question is, really, whether there is a law against allowing "dangerous" dogs outside of the country. There may not be such a thing. However, it boils down to the dogs needing somebody to stamp them as okay for export. How do we get that stamp?
I.e.: How do we get these dogs into a legal status where they are exportable? That's a question for anybody fluent in Japanese.
About writing a letter to the governor of Osaka-fu, I recommend that you remind him that the Shikoku is a Natural Treasure / Living Monument of Japan and has been since 1938. If these dogs are considered dangerous in Japan, then why not allow us Americans to take them away. We have lots of room in America and most of us have big yards where the dogs can run. Also, we are a very dog-oriented culture and we keep dangerous dogs like these in our homes all the time....after a few weeks of exposure to the soft, leisurely American style of living these dogs will become as tame as kittens...we'll feed them hamburgers and drive them around in SUVs and soon they'll be too big to move very fast. Two specimens of a Living Monument will be saved from destruction, two dangerous dogs will be permanently off the streets, and nobody will have to lose any face.
Also, I would donate a couple of bucks to any collection fund that were set up to bring these dogs over here, though I think the person who adopts them should bear most of the cost since they'll be your dogs and probably a lot of work.
Shipping a dog seems to be a lot of stress for them, but there are many stories of it on this forum, and it looks like they pretty much get over it and get on with their lives. Also, I haven't seen any verifiable horror stories.
In general, my feeling is that extracting these dogs from Japan will be the absolute best thing for them. Or any similar dog in their situation.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that we Gaijin lovers of Japanese dogs should consider forming a group for rescuing nihonken from Japan. If we could establish a relationship of some kind with organizations like ARK in Japan and do whatever we need to do to get a process for extradicting Japan's unwanted Shikoku, Kishi, Kai, Akita, etc.
The bigger concern is what is basically the problem right here - how do we convince the Japanese to let us take their stray National Treasures?
Is it possible for anyone in Japan to go visit these dogs and report back their personalities? This will be a big risk for any potential adopter as with importing any dog...but, I see more risk here, since these dogs are shelter dogs. There is not much background on these dogs and you will not be able to meet them before you make your decision.
Shipping these dogs to the east coast would be rough on them, though, wouldn't it? Much longer than from Japan to the west coast, right?
I would love to have one, but I'm actually in the process of getting a pups through Peggy from a 2010 or later litter, so I feel that it would be best to give this opportunity to someone else. But, if there is anything I could do to help (donation, transport), don't hesitate to ask. I'll be going to the Wisconsin Meet up, so if someone wants one and can't go, I'd be happy to bring one to them.
Jen and I would be willing to donate some $ to help these dogs.
I do find it kinda strange that we (a group of enthusiasts in AMERICA) are the ones that may be rescuing these dogs. You would think they would be rescued in Japan, I mean the dogs are rare over there too.
This makes me think Kenshi is on to something - we may not be getting the full story. It would be really bad to rescue these dogs, bring them over here, and then find they are abused and too reactive to live comfortable in a forum members home - then what?
So, my word of caution is this: If you are REALLY interested in saving these dogs, and want to give them a home, please make sure you are 100% prepared to take on a dog that could potentially be a serious issue.
Having said all that, if it does cost around $400 to ship one, add some extra cost for a crate and etc... So lets say it's $800. That's not a bad price really. If someone is looking to get a Shikoku, and is willing to rescue one of these, the cost would be less than buying from a kennel in North America.
Also, as I said before, they can always live here with us (Jen and I have the experience to handle them). So if they where brought over and found to be a "bad fit", please know that they can come here - please don't let them end up in a shelter in America - I would really hope that everyone does everything they can to not have that be the case.
Jen and I could also help with fostering them, if needed.
What Jen and I can't do is fly to Japan or take any long road trips right now, we have lots of that already planned for this year.
PS: I really think the best thing for these dogs would be to find them a home in Japan. If we could all work to get them out of that shelter and prefecture and into the hands of someone like Shigeru (who knows the rescue system well over there), then we will be giving these dogs the shot at a happy life they deserve... my point is, they don't have to come all the way to America to give them a good home.
----
If only my grandma was younger, I know she'd be willing to take a dog in. But I doubt they would want a 75 year old lady from Hiroshima taking in a young dog lol.
i am most likely to make a day trip down to ARK at the end of this month, so i can visit them and see how their temperament is like, or if Gen or her dad is going to visit them, or Shigeru.
Not sure what the outcome will be after writing to the governors office, but if the dogs are allowed to leave the prefecture, may make things a little easier for adoption, i can try to spread the word around the bases here too.
But if no1 is willing to take them and they are allowed to leave the country, its nice to know there are potential homes here on the forum.
if they can travel space-a, i will be able to take them to the states to whoever is able to take them in.
im no pro when it comes to dog behavior/personality, but i think i can still judge if the dog has any major issues, i dont know if any other forum members in japan are interested in making the trip down to Osaka, but i am pretty much going there for sure at the end of this month, any1 interested to visit together let me know.