Bloat...

Darwin67Darwin67
edited March 2009 in Food, Nutrition, & Health
So, from what I have read about the American Akita, they are in the top 10 of breeds who can suffer from Bloat.

Naturally, I'm a little freaked over that statistic. So, from what I can gather, in order to lessen the chances of this happening I should:

1. Feed a grain free diet.
2. Smaller meals 2 to 3 times per day.
3. Keep food/water seperate...meaning when she's eating take the water away.
4. Reduce activity level after meals.

Is there anything else someone might reccommend to reduce this risk?? Suggested supplements?

I'm still out on the food choice. I'm leaning towards Solid Gold Wolf King Adult and mixing with a high-end canned food for variety. I don't know what the kennel has been feeding her...I'm going to guess not a high end food.
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Comments

  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    edited November -1
    Check out the Purdue University study

    http://www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/update2.htm
    http://www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/bloat.htm

    (Brandon gets props for these)
  • CaliaCalia
    edited November -1
    I've heard, from greyhound enthusiasts, that giving food and water on raised bowls is supposed to help as it's supposed to reduce gulping up air. They also try not to give water for an hour before and after any major exercise. Some have even gotten the surgery that keeps the stomach from twisting to help prevent bloat.
  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    edited November -1
    Beth - That's what I had always read too. Brandon got me on track when he told me about this Purdue University study, that is more recent than any of my sources.
  • CaliaCalia
    edited November -1
    It is quite an interesting study, and one that would take quite a bit of reading to fully understand. They followed mainly big dogs, but don't go over some of the really deep chested dogs, such as some shepherds and greyhounds.

    I'm surprised they didn't have greyhound on the list, bloat seems to be the biggest concern with greyhound owners.
  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    edited November -1
    If I remember it correctly they had Great Danes, which are the epitome of bloating breeds. Great Danes are also very similar to Greyhounds in what regards depth of chest. One of the reasons for that might be that supposedly the Greyhound is the breed that helped shape the Dane.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    edited November -1
    Some of the greyhound owners from work feed with raised bowls. I think they worry most about bloat, bone cancer and running injuries with their Greys. A few of them have had the stomach tacking surgery done on their Greys and other large deep chested breeds. Since she isn't spayed,you could opt to have her stomache tacked at the same time as her spay.
  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    edited November -1
    If you are really serious about it, there is a procedure where they can tack the stomach and spay arthroscopically at the same time. Thea, the Swissy that is visiting us this week, had that procedure done. It was done at the UGA Veterinary teaching hospital, so you may need to ask your regular vet for a referral to a teaching hospital near you. I believe it was around $1,200 for the procedure, but it is is minimally invasive so there's a benefit to the added cost.
  • KissuiKissui
    edited November -1
    Bloat is one of the very worst things ever. It is the most serious problem in dogs IMHO and not enough has been done to even understand it let alone prevent/stop it.

    I had a Komondor die in the middle of the night with zero warning from bloat.

    Eight hours after being fed.
    No strenuous excersise.
    None of the warning signs of an attack.

    Just woke up and found her dead. A healthy and beautiful four year old girl.

    None of the suggested preventative really work all that well. I do know that kibble dogs do bloat with more occurence than raw fed dogs. Taking the stomach is pretty good, but it is invasive and the staples can come loose.

    Elevated feed bowls are not the way to go. It is unnatural for a dog to eat standing up like a horse or giraffe.

    One thing is you need to keep a large syringe with no plunger on you at all times. If you can catch an attack you can plunge that into the dogs stomach to release the air. That will buy you the time to get the dog to the vet.

    With all of the talk about hip certifications it is a shame that the silent killer bloat is not talked about nor researched enough.

    Find out the truth about how many dogs in that dogs line have bloated.
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    edited November -1
    It is tragic when something happens and it's out of your control. Although advice is sometimes free on this forum it may be best to take some recommendations from a professional medical provider.

    (Logically speaking...Keeping a needled syringe on one at all times seems rather impractical and dangerous. If you don't have an idea on what you are doing the risk of perforating another area by accident can be pretty horrible too.)

    Being aware of symptoms is half the battle and having an idea where the nearest emergency clinic is located is probably the best plan.

    Snf
  • KissuiKissui
    edited November -1
    Almost every serious Irish Wolfhound breeder keeps an unplunged syringe handy. This is something the old time breeders will tell you, that is where I learned about it.

    A lot of times with bloat a symptoms just don't occur until the dog is near death. The only hope is to release that gas.

    I know it seems extreme but then again bloat is an extreme problem.

    I am puzzled by what is often a laidback attitude twards bloat but mouth frothing ferver twards HD. I just don't get it.
  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    edited November -1
    Brad - The syringe technique is a good one, in principle.
    But, done by any average person it might be just as fatal as bloat itself. Done right it could save the dog's life, but if done wrong it could kill the dog right there.
    Bloat is a huge problem for a dog, yes.
    That's why it is extremely important that people always keep aware of the symptoms and know the location of the closest emergency vet, as well as the phone number, to phone ahead so they are expecting your arrival and act faster on the problem.
    Extreme measures can aggravate the problem and I don't think any one wants to add guilt to the grief of loosing a friend.

    As for bloat in the bloodlines, a responsible breeder should never breed a dog whose close relatives had bloat.
  • Darwin67Darwin67
    edited November -1
    What is sad is that so few undestand or even know what it is. I will raise my hand and say I had never dealt or heard of bloat until I had seen an episode of "Dog Town" where a Chow Chow had to be put down earlier this year. Then of course I read in a book about a dog who also had to be put down....then when I saw "BLOAT" under Akita issues, I was really amazed, and also shocked.

    Luckily, I live less than 5 minutes from our regions top Veterinarian Emergency Clinic. We had to go there to put Cody down in February. I don't know about keeing a syringe, You'd have to be pretty well versed on Akita anatomy to perform that procedure...we'll definately talk to our vet about this.

    I will read the Purdue study, definately, and will follow the feeding guidelines. Unfortunately, I have no family history on her as she is a rescue.
  • KissuiKissui
    edited November -1
    In some breeds every bloodline has had bloat, let's not kid ourselves.
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    edited November -1
    Leonberger well stated….

    And by the time you need to get Pulp Fiction/Vincent on the stomach of a dog with severe bloat, the animal generally is well on its way to renal failure. Soooo there better be an immediate serious follow through plan for keeping cardiac arrest at bay. Hence you will need the emergency clinic!

    Yeah, Bloat (gastric torsion) happens in several species of animal, not just dogs.
    It helps to have some meds in your toolkit to use if you suspect early symptoms. Again its best to talk with own veterinarian about it.

    Snf
  • ljowen123ljowen123
    edited November -1
    I am familiar with bloat in livestock, but until a couple of months ago, I was unaware that dogs were susceptible. Scary, scary stuff.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    edited November -1
    I remember from living in Montana that with the cattle who bloated the farmers in the area had no qualms whatsoever about plunging an old dirty knife into the side of the beast to release the gas. There was often no vet visit except for what the farmer couldn't do himself. This was succesfully peformed by a vet on one of our goats after ingesting massive amounts of rhodies.
    Breeders and farmers have been known for somewhat undesirable practices regarding home remedies in the past, perhaps in a time before access to good vets was the norm this was the standard practice. Old habits die hard, hopefully the dogs don't. I have heard of adding oils directly to the foods to help reduce the chances of torsion/bloat.
  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    edited November -1
    I do that with Kuma, adding oil to the food.
    It was an advice left here on the forum by Michael, of Misaan Akitas. Doesn't hurt to try, and I found a vegetable oil, low on saturated fats, with Omega 3 added that is a boost for the Omega 3 on the salmon oil he gets for his skin and coat.
  • okironokiron
    edited November -1
    I wish people didn't rely on vets so much and did research enough to be able to do things themselves (to a point of course). Giving vaccines, sub-q's, etc are pretty easy, using a syringe to release air to save your pet from death is more than doable if you take a minute to learn. That's not to say vets are useless, I just don't believe in using them as a clutch to stay ignorant. It is a "if only" mentality. I do realize it's asking too much from the average Joe.
  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    edited November -1
    Learning how to do something like sticking a long, large caliber needle in a dog's stomach requires practice. Practice requires something to train on. It's not something you see once and you learn. Other than vet or vet tech students, I'm not seeing a lot of people with access to dead animals on which to practice that, not only the average Joe.

    Also, there will also be a strong emotional bond to the dog, and it's a very stressful situation, and it is a very big needle. I don't think it's very likely that anyone in that situation won't be affected.
  • okironokiron
    edited November -1
    I agree, there will always be a line of can you do it physically and can you do it emotionally. I guess that's why some knowledge will stay with those who breed, farm, or just have a lot of animals. Not to be cold hearted, it's just not cost efficient otherwise. A dead livestock is loss of profits.
  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    edited November -1
    I have to disagree with your characterization that people use vets as a "clutch [sic.] to stay ignorant" (I assume you meant "crutch"). People use vets for their expertise. I think Linday's point is the right one. If you don't have access to a *good* vet and there are life threatening problems that you may have to deal with on a regular basis, then *being taught* (rather than "doing research enough" to do it themselves) is a viable option. Its not like we're dealing with a car here. If your car breaks down and you do some research and try to fix it, you may do some more damage to it or you may not. Regardless, if you don't get it fixed, you can always pay someone who knows more to fix it for you. With animals, if you try to fix things yourself and screw it up, there may be no returning from that. Why take that risk?

    I go to a vet because when something is wrong, I want an expert to help me diagnose and fix it. I want the best possible care for my animals regardless of the price. It seems highly unlikely that any pet owner without formal vet training will be able to provide the same quality of care to their animal based solely on research.

    I also have to disagree with your characterization of veterinary procedures not being cost effective. I pay a premium to a high priced vet because I trust them and I have heard from a lot of people about the quality of care. The cost goes towards ensuring my dogs get what is best for them and the chances of a mistake or problem are minimized. I'd call that money well spent, even if it is something I may be able to learn to do for myself.
  • okironokiron
    edited November -1
    Yeah, sorry for the misspell. And I guess I didn't clarify enough. I'm not suggesting that everyone should know how to diagnose every little thing and perform brain surgery but simple things like vaccinations and sub-q's are not hard to learn. If your dogs have diarrhea, don't you give them pumpkin? There are owners that don't even know to give pumpkin. It's simple stuff like that. You shouldn't have to run to the vet for every little thing. There are some things you could handle yourself.

    And I think you misunderstood me or I didn't explain correctly (seems to have a bad habit of doing that). A farmer will usually live in a rural area where it would take a while to get to the vet. He could learn how to help his livestock and prolong its life so they could get to the vet to begin with (or have the vet get to them) or have the livestock die while waiting. That's what I meant by it not being cost efficient to not learn how to take care of your own animals.
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    edited November -1
    "It seems highly unlikely that any pet owner without formal vet training will be able to provide the same quality of care to their animal based solely on research."

    I agree entirely. I'm a trained nurses aide, and while I can get a glucose reading with an arm prick and give a human an insulin shot, I don't feel comfortable giving my dogs a vaccine just because I know how to administer an injection. Even if (heaven forbid!) my dog developed diabetes, I would want the vet to train me to test and administer whatever was needed.
    There's a reason vet's are called professionals, and why specialists are called specialists, and while all are not created equal, the ones I trust for my dogs care, I trust entirely for everything because I'm not the trained professional.

    Now, in the last two months, I've started a huge on-the-side research project for myself regarding vaccines, which are required by law, which are core, why they are core, which are non-essential, why are they non-essential. I am still planning to discuss what I find with my vet, explain what I tried to figure out via limited research and how I want to apply that to my dog's vaccine schedules, but at the end of the day, I'm still going to trust and pay that professional.
  • okironokiron
    edited November -1
    "Even if (heaven forbid!) my dog developed diabetes, I would want the vet to train me to test and administer whatever was needed."

    Knock on wood for that. Just wanted to let you know vets will train you if asked. Same with sub-q's.

    And I would like to note I do go to the vet for my animals' vaccinations because I have a fear of handling needles.
  • NekopanNekopan
    edited November -1
    As a livestock owner, I've done sub-q and intramuscular injections on my sheep. While I agree that taking livestock to the vet every time they get sick is not cost-effective, there are still instances where we'd go in emergencies even though it was hours away. That being said, livestock are relatively expendable compared to companion pets, which are, well, companions. If you try to save a sheep and it dies, you know what to do differently next time. Dogs have a relatively small stomach as compared to a sheep's, which has four chambers, so I wouldn't risk the needle trick. It's much more likely that you'd hit the intestines or some other organ and cause even more damage instead of relieving the pressure.
  • okironokiron
    edited November -1
    *shrugs* I guess I just have a different mentality because of my rabbits. They're fragile and sturdy animals at the same time. They could be fine one minute, dead the next. Their signs of illness is very subtle and your options of care are pretty limited. You learn to deal with it yourself unless you want a bunch of dead rabbits around. My opinion isn't unique within the rabbit community.
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    edited November -1
    Yes, there is base knowledge for everyday living which is hand me down or learned through others to ease "general" care. However, like Jen and Dave have pointed out there is a reason and a time to seek a professional. Bloat in dogs should be one of them. (Note: There are less invasive methods, not every case of bloat requires a dramatic procedure.)

    In any case, doctors and vets are versed hands on for years before being considered qualified to practice. A mere "how to" layman's reference guide does not address all the tricky factors that go along with treatment in many medical emergencies. For example: In the case of bloat you can relieve the gas, but then what?...Do you have the means to stabilize the animal??

    Hack and slash methods of medical care do exist. However, the probability of survival is NOT putting the odds in favor of the dog, if there is full torsion. IMHO if the animal lived after the hack I suspect probably another less invasive method most likely could have been performed to begin with to alleviate the bloat condition. The ignorance makes the likelihood of wounds or tissue becoming septic and you will still need to seek a professional to patch up and also explain away an ill performed procedure. In the mean time valuable minutes have be lost when the animal could have been on the way to the vet to begin with. For many folks who are living in somewhat urban areas I suspect access to a professional/vet or emergency clinic is not too far away.

    PS: And yes as Lindsay states farmers practices their own type of treatment out of necessity for cows/sheep/goats. However to ease misconceptions, ruminants and dogs have two different types of anatomy so don't think one method can fully pass for the other, if at all, depending on the case.

    Snf
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    edited November -1
    SnF and Kyla-that is a very good point regarding the anatomy differences, the side of a cow is a huge target, hard to miss compared to a dog.
    It seemed to me that the farmers were moslty concerned with cost of treatment and transport. If it cost more than $5, it was too expensive for a single animal when their herds numbered in the 500's. Some of things I assisted with were terrible and I regret it, but it's a fact of farming life (for someone other than me now).
    Vaccines and subq's are completely different, but every pet owner should know some basic first aid for what ever critter they live with. If it involves needles, fine, just know what to do and be careful.
  • NekopanNekopan
    edited November -1
    Here's the digestive system of a ruminant:

    image

    And here's the anatomy of a dog:

    image

    Ruminants have very large, compartmentalized stomachs, whereas in dogs it's much smaller and tucked behind other organs. I suppose if you felt comfortable enough or had enough practice it would be fine, but I personally wouldn't want to attempt it.
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    edited November -1
    wow, Kyla! Great diagrams, THANKS!!
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