question on correcting behavior
Got a question for you guys to see what we should do here. My fiance and I have read both of Cesar Milan's books on pack leader and cesar's way. We are trying to bring up our new puppy with this philosophy of correcting unwanted negative energy and praising calm energy. However, our puppy is 9 weeks old, and puppies have lots of hyper excited energy. My question is, should we be correcting her behavior when she gets in a playful mood and is running around snapping her teeth trying to play bite everything (and i mean everything, furniture, us, her toys, etc.)
Its hard because we dont want her nipping, not even playful because she can still do some damage with that, yet we want her to be playful. the problem is that when we correct her for nipping she just flips on her back and starts trying to bite the hands your correcting her with...she thinks its even more fun and games for her. (when I say correct, we are using Cesar's idea of a dominant dogs touch on the neck all the while projecting calm assertive energy).
We are Just looking for some suggestions here on what we should be doing because we realize that she is still a puppy and not an older dog. From what we have read Cesar's methods are for adult dogs, I have never seen him working with a puppy.
Its hard because we dont want her nipping, not even playful because she can still do some damage with that, yet we want her to be playful. the problem is that when we correct her for nipping she just flips on her back and starts trying to bite the hands your correcting her with...she thinks its even more fun and games for her. (when I say correct, we are using Cesar's idea of a dominant dogs touch on the neck all the while projecting calm assertive energy).
We are Just looking for some suggestions here on what we should be doing because we realize that she is still a puppy and not an older dog. From what we have read Cesar's methods are for adult dogs, I have never seen him working with a puppy.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I prefer more positive reinforcement training. Have you ever watched "It's Me or the Dog" with Victoria Stillwell? She is AMAZING when it comes to training.
For the bititng, instead of doing a "touch" I would let out a human version of a shiba yelp or a loud "ouch", get up and turn your back to the puppy or walk out of the room for 10 seconds. This way they realize that you don't want to play rough and if they want to continue play, they have to be less nippy.
Also clicker training is an amazing thing. I am just now researching using a clicker and I wish I had started sooner.
Corrections are best limited to an "ANh ANh" or a stern "NO" when a a dog is going to hurt itself or someone else.
Pick up Karen Pryors Puppy training kit Plus
http://www.clickertraining.com/store/?item=putrkitpl
Also explore the website, she has lots of very useful info and videos.
And be patient.
Anyways, positive reinforcement training definitely goes a lot further with Shibas. The way I have delt with play biting is to yelp. Make it loud, shrill, and short. And then get up and walk away. This will make her understand that biting means an immediate stop in fun. I know it can be inconveinent to get up and leave the room, but trust me, it helps. After a couple of days of this behaviour, my pups both learned that humans are not fond of teeth. Once she starts to play nice, reward her with treats, toys, or a belly rub. (whichever she likes the most) By rewarding the positive behaviour, it teaches the dog to do that behaviour more versus the behaviour that gets them ignored.
As independent as Shibas are, they really want nothing more than to be the center of attention. :-P
The only problem I see with yelping and getting out of the room, is that it kind of shows her that she won. If you remove yourself from the problem then she thinks that biting you makes you move. Also it wont help for the couch as I cant move the couch out of the room ;)
I will try making a sound though and giving her stern NO's when she gets nippy again.
If you would like an accurate understanding of canine behavior, read Patricia McConnells The Other End of the Leash, or The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson.
There is a reason Cesar is not respected in the animal behavior community for the most part. His methods, all though very entertaining on television, are often dangerous and irresponsible.
As Jess mentioned, his training techniques are outdated. There are many other techniques you can use that follow positive reinforcement. I understand some breeds need a powerful leader to put them in check, but from my experience, Shiba's do not react well to physical corrections (alph-rolling, jerking the leash, etc.) I have had GREAT success with clicker training and re-direction.
When I see a puppy about to get nippy- I always say "AH AH!" and turn away before they can actually nip me. It's best to always set your dog up for success. Catch your puppy before the act and correct vocally and redirect the biting/nipping to a chew toy and praise.
You may also want to start teaching "Leave It" - I taught my friend's 12 week old mini schnauzer in 30 minutes. It is THE best trick I have taught my dogs....I don't know what I would do without it!
(Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson, Patricia McConnell).
"I like Cesar's philosophy on things, why not use the natural method of nature to train your dog".
--That's just it, it is merely a philosophy. Actually Cesars way really is NOT the natural way to train. Maybe for humans it is gratifying and natural but for a puppy it is plain confusing. Wild dogs do not alpha roll or jab other members in a dog pack (in the neck) as a normal part of cooperative social interaction/dynamics, unless they are attacking another dog to drive it from the pack or take over a litter, which can end rather violently.... Not something you want to emulate. Domestic dogs don't normally either.
"yelping and getting out of the room, is that it kind of shows her that she won."
--Again you are looking at it from a human perspective. The dog isn't thinking about winning, it is about play and learning limits with the only tool it has, its mouth. At this point it has no concept about pounds per Sq inch of pressure. That is where you step in and remove the puppy from the situation by giving it a time out in the crate or x-pen with a toy OR optionally you enforce a time out by removing yourself. Puppies will and do stop play with each other when another in the litter does not play appropriately. This is also the case with the mother once she is tired of the antics. Puppies want nothing more than to be the center of attention so removing yourself and ending play is actually a form of correction.
"it wont help for the couch as I cant move the couch out of the room"
So are you saying she is chewing on the couch? In that case redirect your puppy to another activity with his toys or place him in a more appropriate area.
There will always be a jungle hour where a Shiba gets the "zoomies" and with that comes rascal type behavior that gets out of control with chewing or biting and dashing under objects such as the couch. Usually it passes, if not, get the dog outside to bust some of the energy or place it in the x-pen to wind down.
Redirect any biting to a "ropy toy/bone". So instead of the hand, another object goes into the mouth.... Also known as teaching re-directed displacement.
ALL Puppies will be a pain in the butt for awhile with mouthing. It is the worst phase and least enjoyable as a dog owner. Up to four months of age or more are all about mouthing.
Look at Victoria Stillwell also and read read read beyond the Ceaser book(s).
Snf
I can definitly confirm that the tips that the other members gave you are great and work!!!
You dont want a dog that behaves because he fears the consequences!!!
You want a dog that behaves because he respects you and your rules!!!
and if you watch a packleader of wolves in nature you will see that he is the calmest one in the pack, who gives the other ones a safety sensation and not terror...
Read the books and you will understand and become the next positive reinforcement junkie
YOU are a PERSON, not a dog or a wolf.
Your DOG is a DOG, not a person, or a wolf.
Wolves and dogs behave VERY differently, and both behave VERY differently from humans.
Your dog knows you are not a dog, as you know your dog is not a person (or a wolf).
So why would you use a "technique" or "method" that is based on you acting like something your are not? It makes no sense.
----
Also, if you act violently toward a dog/puppy (yes I consider the "alpha role" violent), then you are teaching that dog/puppy to interact violently with you. Do you really want that?
If your dog jumps and bites at you, turn around! Ignore him/her. They want attention, if you show them that behavior doesn't get attention (good or bad) then they will stop. Give them attention when they sit, or lay down.
----
Which brings me back to why anyone and everyone who ever wants to own a dog should read Culture Clash. It clears away all the mythology and just leaves you with the truth.
We are not dogs.
Dogs are not wolves.
Dogs do not consider us dogs.
dealing with sophie I felt it in my inner but it wasnt clearly on my mind.. you can use some things of dogs body language like calming signals cause dogs use them in communication with other animals/humans but not everything in dogs behaviour is suited for us humans...
and the thing with the mothers mouthsnap.. its not a snap.. she just gently puts her mouth above the mouth of the youngster
I'm currently working my way through "The Power of Positive Training" by Pat Miller. So far, its a great read.
Tony, if you want to communicate in a "dog like" manner Turid Rugaas' "On Talking Terms With Dogs:Calming Signals is an EXCELLENT and quick read.
As is
Patricia McConnell's "How to be the Leader of the Pack...and Have your Dog Love You for it!" which is only 16 pages long. You can read it during a lunch break and be an even better owner for it!
Understanding the calming signals, and maybe even using them, is very different from trying to manage your dog/dogs with techniques that other dogs use to mange each other (aka acting like a dog).
When I had my rough start with Luytiy I noticed some things...
When I would try the calming signals with him he wouldn't react to them, he would just look at me like "what are you doing?". Yawning, stretching, lip licking, turning away, these didn't seem to help at all. His stress level around me was still very high and the situation was still very dangerous for me.
You know what worked? Smiling! When I would smile at Luytiy he would calm, and become playful... Dogs don't smile, but people do. Here I was trying all these methods to communicate with him on his level, and what I needed to do was communicate with him on MY [human] level.
I think this points something out that we should all keep in mind: dogs domesticated themselves. They found an opportunity to exploit humans to get an easier meal and so they started living closer to people. Eventually people took note of their presence and started using them and the relationship. the (newly evolved) dog's low-flight level (aka tameness) could be used to the humans advantage. People then started to play god, and selectively breed dogs into the variety we see today (aka breeds).
You see, dogs have spent most their evolutionary life watching humans. Our dogs read our body language better than we read other people's body language. This, to me, is really the key reason things like "alpha rolls" and other wolf/dog mimicking techniques fail.
Dogs know us. Dogs have evolved to master understanding humans - so much that they even mimic us.
I have found that if you are in a situation where you need to communicate with your dog - calming them or whatever - the easiest and most effective thing to do is to act like a human and treat them like a dog. Smile at your dog if you want to calm them. Be happy, energetic, and supportive when they do something you like. If you want to correct all it takes is a simple frown (no physical contact)... they know how you feel, trust me. They read you like a book.
----
I am not saying I liked the episode where he rolled the Jindo, or the one where he cornered the sheltie with the toaster oven...but I think his training methods actually do show a good amount of understanding of the dog/owner communication.
It's like the whole thought of "you have to be like a wolf to get through to your dog - be the pack leader who doesn't take any insubordination!" is ass backwards because you are actually being more like a chimp and less like a wolf.
I think you make a good point about how dogs react to energy. While it is true that Cesar's practice of "calm assertive" energy does work well in many situations with dogs, I do not believe his reasons for using it are correct. He often cites "alpha" wolves as his motivation/inspiration for exuding calm assertiveness. There is no evidence to support that theory and, in fact, there is evidence to refute it for domesticated canines. Dogs respond to human's calm assertive energy because it enables us to communicate clearly with them. It has more to do with human-to-dog communication than it does with wolf-to-wolf or dog-to-dog communication. When we're excited or nervous our dogs pick up on that and react excitedly or nervously. The fact that it works for Cesar is more of a "happy accident" than it is a useful technique.
i trained with Sophie an off-signal ( if I tell her off she shouldnt take the available treat in my hand, later on you can use it for telling your dog during training that the thing hes doing is not the right one)... Sophie read my bodylanguage so well that she knew only on the way how i presented it, if i would say off or not...so she backed away even before i said off... and i tried like hell to present it always in the same manner
I'll admit that I'm a bit old-schooled in some ways and not so much in others. The thing is you want to be fair to that particular dog. For example, with my dogs, my Malinois can handle more pressure then my Shikoku. So yes, I'm more harsh with her. My Shikoku are very sensitive, they don't handle pressure very well. Usually all it takes with the Shikoku is a verbal command. Sometimes a little nudge. My Malinois sometimes takes a lot more effort but she recovers nicely.
My favorite method is the "positive negative positive". I need to go eat dinner right now but if you type up Ot Vitosha, Ivan and Malinois you're bound to come up with an explaination to this method.