Very frustrated - Had a better day today :o)
We've been working SO hard on Loki's fears and reactiveness... but it only seems to get worse and worse.
We haven't been able to get him into a regular training class because he would either cower in the corner or go ape shit crazy barking at people. The barking/lunging looks scary, but it seems as though it comes from fear.
Here's just one example:
When my mom came to visit he went off on her, until I broke out the salmon/chicken gizzard treats I made. He would take treats from me but still growl at my mom, for a while... then he stopped with the growling, but still took treats from me. His eyes always returned right back to my mom as soon as the treat/focus command were over. slowly I got him to focus on me handing her the treat and she would toss it to him - he was still cowering. Finally we got to the point where he'd take the treat from her.
It took about 20 minutes of SLOW progress to finally get him on my lap on the couch with her next to him. Pretty soon I slipped away while she treated him and he was on her like ants on honey - TONS of kisses lots of and wanting belly rubs.
He really is a sweet dog, but every time I have to walk him (and we HAVE to... the condo people are getting down right mean if we let him go in our yard... even though we immediately clean it up) I'm worried about running into another person or dog. He scared a woman half to death today, all the while I'm trying my hardest to get his attention. I seriously need Victoria Stillwell *sigh*
I know there's something I could be doing better, but I'm so thick into the forest I can't see the trees!!
We put a call in to our trainer asking about something private, but I'm not even sure we could take him to the training school because there are ALWAYS dogs and people around
/
Anyway... just a mini-rant... hopefully she'll call back with some suggestions and/or a behaviorist recommendation.
**Edited the title to seem less "giving up" and more "AHHH I wish I knew what to do!"**
We haven't been able to get him into a regular training class because he would either cower in the corner or go ape shit crazy barking at people. The barking/lunging looks scary, but it seems as though it comes from fear.
Here's just one example:
When my mom came to visit he went off on her, until I broke out the salmon/chicken gizzard treats I made. He would take treats from me but still growl at my mom, for a while... then he stopped with the growling, but still took treats from me. His eyes always returned right back to my mom as soon as the treat/focus command were over. slowly I got him to focus on me handing her the treat and she would toss it to him - he was still cowering. Finally we got to the point where he'd take the treat from her.
It took about 20 minutes of SLOW progress to finally get him on my lap on the couch with her next to him. Pretty soon I slipped away while she treated him and he was on her like ants on honey - TONS of kisses lots of and wanting belly rubs.
He really is a sweet dog, but every time I have to walk him (and we HAVE to... the condo people are getting down right mean if we let him go in our yard... even though we immediately clean it up) I'm worried about running into another person or dog. He scared a woman half to death today, all the while I'm trying my hardest to get his attention. I seriously need Victoria Stillwell *sigh*
I know there's something I could be doing better, but I'm so thick into the forest I can't see the trees!!
We put a call in to our trainer asking about something private, but I'm not even sure we could take him to the training school because there are ALWAYS dogs and people around
/Anyway... just a mini-rant... hopefully she'll call back with some suggestions and/or a behaviorist recommendation.
**Edited the title to seem less "giving up" and more "AHHH I wish I knew what to do!"**
Comments
Does he act so fearful with the other two pups around, or is it just when he is by himself?
I am sorry that I do not have much advice for you, but it sounds like what you are doing is working, it just might take time for him to come around.
It's hard to admit that I don't feel 100% in control of the situation... especially because when he first came to live with us I did!!
Are they (trainers) familiar with reactive dogs?? If they have enough space they can move you from a low threshold place and then work you back to the mainstream class as your dog progresses.
It can't hurt to contact Victoria Stillwell. I know she had casting calls sometime ago. Check her site out to see if she is near you for casting.
You will be the first celeb here on the forum (LOL).
Let us know how it goes.
Snf
PS: I forgot to mention....BREATH deeply. : ) The spitzies can certainly push one's buttons at times.
Talk to your veterinarian about an anxiolytic for Loki. It may be just the ticket to get him over the hump. Many dogs can be later weaned off, though some do best with prolonged therapy of a reduced dose.
There is herbal such as rescue remedy that some swear by.
Snf
20 minutes seems like forever, but its not really- to do what you guys did. That's really very good! Don;t be hard on yourself.
For mom visits, or for training Loki to accept people he has to accept (not merely ignore) first look at your mom's body language, then try Treat and Retreat. Is mom staring at him? Is she looking tall, is Loki somewhat cornered? are her arms crossed? Dog language is very subtle and there things your mom can do to make him being to see she is not a threat sooner. If mom is amenable to these things, she can look away from Loki, she can stand casually, weight shifted, she can yawn. These things are not going to cure him, but they are ways to take the top off his fear of her.
Next give mom many tiny treats. She can throw them toward Loki, but still not stare at him and not approach him. When he looks to her for another treat, have her toss it either behind him or to the side of him so he does not have to walk toward her. Have mom toss a treat and turn away, toss a treat, turn and take two steps away. He will begin to look to her for more, and will be doing it of his OWN volition. He will move toward her because he wants to. the difference between this and the focus exercise you did before is that Treat-Retreat is not cued- there is no command and Loki is free to choose to approach mom at his own pace. He is looking to you or to her because it is his idea to, not because you cue Watch Me, which he does because you ask him to. When its his idea, not cued, it sticks sooner. If you go through this with mom a few times, he will begin to Get that your Mom is a proven Source of Good Things and will not fear her.
Because you have to take him on walks, you have a harder problem (which I share- in fact I am all happy because it is raining today which means I know I can walk Sage without running into any triggers and you understand!). As you know, it is impossible to get his attention once he is fixed on his dread and fear. You need to have his attention before the scary thing appears- as you know once it appears its all over. This is really slow, but loose leash walking and the Auto Check In are the first steps. There is no quick fix to this, you have to go back to the core of your relationship (boy, am I fresh off a seminar or what? sorry!) and slice your expectations for him into very thin slices. In our Reactive Dog class, our trainers impressed upon us to not let the dogs stare, that we know what's going to happen (explosion) and that we need to teach the dog to target our hand, to split their attention between us and the environment. We did this via clicker training and the juciest, smelliest, best treats imaginable cascading in sequence every time the dog looked at us. We did this by forcing ourselves to remain calm and not express how embarrassed the behavior is, or how angry we feel that our dog is doing this again.
Our reactive dogs are really scared, and they need to know we will protect them. This means we have to be there every time they look at us and reinforce that look, we need to pre-empt unwanted conflicts - step in front of him and tell approaching dogs GET BACK! or tell people "We're Not Friendly" ( I hate saying it because he IS friendly but he is afriad of strangers and we cant go through counter conditioning to everyone, only people he will see often enough to make it worth the effort) When you see a person far away, you need to say Hey, Loke, a person! Cool! chicken party! and then turn around. (It would be better if you could have the strnage person turn around but people tend to want to keep doing their own thing and not help us out with our dogs.) You have to get to him ridiculously early and bail on encounters you know he can't handle. Tiny steps.
I dont know where you are but what you need is a Reactive Dog class- you may be able to find one at karen pryor's clickertraining website- in these classes, the dogs are separated into cubicles where they practice looking at you for treats while another dog is walking quickly by the opening for a short exposure- the dogs are kept below explosion threshold by time and distance and with enough reps and incubation time they will begin to learn that when a scary thing happens, Looking At Dad seems like the best choice. "Feed the crap out of him" is what they tell us, and get the hell out of Dodge. IF I look to Dad, I get yummies and he'll make it so I dont have to go near the scary thing.
Another thing I learned is when praising for him looking at you, praise warmly but don't add excitement. Some of us were all "Woo hoo Yay!" and the dogs just amped up further. Keep yourself and your body language calm.
I'll check out the website and see what I can dig up!
Also we are still going through it. It takes a long time. And the truth is that our dogs will always be reactive- we just need to change the relationship to - I guess- a necessarily more dependent one. Dogs like ours will always need us to be there for them, as kindof touchstones against their fear. Manage what you can, train what you can and lower your expectations for him. Like how you knew taking him to the parade was not his thing!
One more thing- I left this till late with Sage because I was all hung up against putting dogs on drugs- where it is so hard for you to find situations where he can be kept under threshhold due to the condo association situation, consider seeing a Veterinary behaviorist if you can. Sage and I happen to live near Tufts Univ. Vet School and I took him to see Dr Moon and Dr Ogata who prescribed him sertraline (zoloft) which is an SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor). To be very clear about this: he has improved, but the improvement is that he takes a few seconds longer to think before pitching a reaction. It is enough time for me to implement our training. The drug doesn't work without management and training. He will still explode if you don't do anything. It just buys you a little more time for him to think, and with that time, you do your part- which is teach him to look to you when he is scared and make it SOOOOOOO worthwhile when he chooses to look at you. Sage and I were very stuck at a particular level and not getting better, so we took the Reactive Dog class and went on drugs and are moving forward again. He will never be a dog park dog, or enjoy backpacking or camping, but he's a good backyard frisbee dog.
I can go on and on about this topic, and I dont want to overwhelm everybody yakking on and on. But don't be afraid of anti anxiety meds for dogs- Suzanne told us this weekend at our seminar that it makes no sense to be against drugs for these dogs when you consider the emotional, physical and chemical toll the stress they are under takes on their bodies. The body is not designed to handle chronic stress and the chemicals it produces under stress are not kind to them. Sustained levels of these can make them very sick. So if you can get a vet behaviorist to assess Loki, it could be a big help.
Then I got to thinking... why don't I just call up Oregon Humane Society, figuring they might have a suggestion. They did indeed! Turns out they offer reactive dog classes! So we'll see what the other woman has to say, but I'm thinking we'll register to take class at OHS in July. Just have to get one last shot set first
Speaking of getting his shots done - I'm going to call ahead and warn the vet that he's even more (if that's possible) reactive now than he was the first couple times they saw him. Is it ok to put a muzzle on him so there's no risk of me getting bit during the temperature/shot phase?? Treats work for a little bit, but any discomfort or pain seems to outweigh even the stinkiest of stuff.
I know you like Ms Stillwell. I know I saw an episode (I think her Britain series not American) where she was teaching an owner to use a muzzle.
I'll have to youtube to see if I can find that episode
I tried a new route with him today, hoping there would be less people because it's kinda out of the way to get to. Unfortunately there were still some people, I guess it just can't be avoided.
Our walk went really well, although there was a lot more sniffing than usual, and even some whining because he couldn't get to the birds in the tree to eat them. We did turn a corner at one point to find a woman walking a pug. Luckily I noticed them and immediately did a u-turn. That u-turn just led us into the path of two oncoming bikers - one of the big fears Loki has. Thankfully I was quick to grab the bag out of my pocket and started feeding him lil bits of treats til the bikers passed... he was so great about it - pretty darn proud of him
The rest of the walk was uneventful. I did treat him a few times to practice loose leash walking (which he's kinda 50/50 on... sometimes it's great other times it's like trying to control a runaway bulldozer on the end of a string).
Feeling much better today, and can't wait til classes start in July.
(At first reading I thought you wrote "to find a woman walking a pig," and I thought GEEZ the poor dog's gotta handle dogs, people and a PIG too?)
You did GREAT with lots of reinforcing, a super duper treat, and a timely Uturn. The bikers were probably a better bet than the pug anyway due to the fact that they wont bark at him and pass more quickly. You should be proud of Loki and yourself, too! You guys are partners in it- working together. Good days, bad days but always onward!
GOOD JOB, EVAN!
Glad to here things are looking up. Well done.
If you can, maybe picking up a few books would help until classes start would help? I've read a few tips and tricks on "Control Unleashed" that applies to reactive dogs that would help you. I always love the "Look at that!" game (Look at object, immediately followed by a "watch me" command), and the "Dog in my face!" game (Look at dog, immediately followed by "watch me" command with stinky treat). :P I'm oversimplifying, but I've learned great insightful things from the book thus far.
Congratulations on the progresss you've made with Loki to date. I agree with others, 20 minutes pales in comparison to the 30min - 1hour of what I've been able to get my dog to "warm up" to that he's normally reactive to (still working on people and dogs).
Don't sell yourself short. Your progress with Loki was significant.
Jesse
Good luck! This sounds like it's a tough trick.