I'm almost afraid to bring this up...
because I've never ever seen it mentioned directly. I'm afraid it might be somehow taboo or gauche, but I'm afraid I really have to ask. I would absolutely LOVE to bring a Shikoku into my family, but I'm not a rich man. I understand all about the cost of care and all, but I'd like to get a rough idea how much I'd have to pay for a Shikoku pup and papers.
My wife really doesn't like the idea of paying for a purebred, when there are so many nice rescues to be had, and I partly agree (although she just recently had a couple of Brittany Spaniels, which makes her attitude just a teensy bit hypocritical)... but I'd really like to see a number, just so I know if it really is a pipe dream to think of adopting a Shikoku.
Would some of you mind terribly telling me what you paid or would expect to pay?
My wife really doesn't like the idea of paying for a purebred, when there are so many nice rescues to be had, and I partly agree (although she just recently had a couple of Brittany Spaniels, which makes her attitude just a teensy bit hypocritical)... but I'd really like to see a number, just so I know if it really is a pipe dream to think of adopting a Shikoku.
Would some of you mind terribly telling me what you paid or would expect to pay?
Comments
Also, since Shika's aren't common here in the US the waiting lists can be lengthy and I would expect to wait at least a year or more for a pup.
Other than the original purchase price, they cost the same as any other dog. I'm not rich either, but dogs are basically my passion, so I don't mind investing a significant amount of money in something I plan to have for 10-15 years. Besides, they make me happier than other things I could spend that money on.
The dog community is not immune to the economics of supply and demand.
I wish you the best of luck. I'm also in a similar situation as you in terms of wanting a Shikoku to join my Shiba.
Thanks,
Jesse
I am on a waiting list for a shikoku with Katja Weber in B.C. My contract is for $2,200.00 U.S.
I was honestly kinda looking at Siberian Huskies for awhile, because I want a fairly rugged dog that can keep up with me... but their temperament isn't really what I'm looking for. Shikoku-ken seem absolutely ideal in that respect, you know. Wow, this is heartbreaking. I'll just have to keep hoping, I guess.
To be honest, I've met a few dogs over the years who displayed dominance or aggressiveness toward their owners, and way too many who were - not to put too fine a point on it - sloppy and dumb.
You probably could rescue a dog that fits your criteria, too.
Buhunds seem pretty neat, karelian bear dogs, too...
Looking at the agility stats over time after this year will be interesting and may tell more about its versatility.
Snf
They may be slightly harder to train than a Shikoku but they have better problem solving skills and are less likely to roam, imo. Also, Kai Ken are more rugged than Shikoku, and some may argue that they are more "primitive" (depending on your definition of the term).
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Also hiking an Akita is nice, until you have to cross any amount of water - then forget it - you will be dragging a 70+lb dog across a tiny puddle.
I have only experience with import lines tho, American Akita may be more rugged.
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Jesse
How about the Elkhound?
Snf
Jindo IMO are a lot like Shibas. They can be difficult to train, will do what they want, and have boundless amounts of energy. I wouldn't recommend either without really doing some major research to find out if either one are the best breed for you. I also wouldn't call a Jindo "primitive". Under my definition of the word. You may find one who likes to hike with you, but that would be up to the individual dog not really the breed from what I have seen.
With all of that said, I'm totally bias towards Kais and Akitas, as far as the Nihon Ken go.
Generally, "primitive" and intelligent, independent dogs are usually of the Spitz type, mainly because the original breeding intention was for work instead of companionship. They had done studies breeding foxes with a good temperament, of which they started to develop curly tails, floppy ears and various coat colors/patterns.
I'm curious in the reasons why you wouldn't consider a Jindo primitive?
-Ann
...roundtrip flight (US - JP & JP - US)
...flight to other areas within Japan
...ground transportation fees (train, subway, taxi, bus)
...health certificate for travel
...crate
...other expenses (i.e. hotel, food, etc)
I paid 100,000 Yens (about $1,000) for Shoushuu
and 170,000 Yens (about $1,700) for Kotomi
My Shikoku were born in Japan. I got my dogs from one breeder who has 5 different lines, but it does vary from breeder to breeder...some charge 200,000 Yens or more (about $2,000+). Prices are usually depending on particular breedings, availablity, other costs involved and the current economy.
If you want to go for an "average" I think about $2,000 is about right.
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Maybe you and your wife can come to some sort of an agreement? I mean, obviously she likes dogs, so it isn't the actual dog that's the problem. Just the pricing of this particular dog...correct?
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Kai Ken are very nice dogs too -smiles-.
We have quite a few Jindo's here in California. Now, it might just be that they were overbreed, mixed, or whatever other reason that deferred them from their origin, but personality wise I would not say they are "primitive."
Ok, so that is such a generic word that I guess I have to explain. I see Jindo as being too hyperactive to concentrate and not too loyal to one person or a pack. I see a lack of "community" in them that a primitive pack type dog would have.
I do not want to put the breed down at all. They are very pretty dogs who can make great pets to the right person who has done their homework. They need A LOT of care and attention. I have said this in the past, and I will keep saying it there are WAY too many in shelters here and that's because they are not dogs for unexperienced owners.
I heard my neighbor yelling at 6am for Scooter her Jindo this morning. (Not a primitive name....lololol) It was what woke me up. He escaped and was running down the street. She always complains about him tearing up the house and yard. He is walked everyday, but I would think that he would do better, not be so destructive, if he was in doggy daycare everyday and was walked 2-3 times per day. All he wants to do is get out of that house. Koda and I will probably be taking him hiking with us. I think he needs it, and I'm sure my neighbor doesn't do it enough.
I've raised 4 Jindos at one time myself. Two of them were actually littermate sisters which is usually the craziest pairing you can think of for most any breed. In Arizona, they could all be let loose in the yard and in the house with no supervision. They wouldn't argue about caught lizards, birds, or get displaced aggression against the stray cat teasing them on top of a fence. Three of the dogs have gone through at least two sessions of formal obedience school. Though they didn't have a high interest in food treats, they did just fine in learning the commands. Though I've never enter the novice class to do off-leash work, they have done long-distance recalls from across a fenced high school field just dragging a 6 ft leash. The fourth dog was too shy to bring to class (panicked when man-handled into positions like they often did back then), but she picked up the commands from simply watching me train the other dogs. The ability to learn and concentrate is definately there if only the owner knows how to tap into it. I will conceed that when young, one of my dogs was extremely hyperactive and was a very destructive chewer, but he did eventually mellowed out with age and get his CGC and ATTS.
I have one friend who owns a pack of Jindos and Malamutes and another friend who owns Jindos, American Akitas, and a Japanese Akita. I've seen pictures and a video of a hunting pack of Jindos in Korea. One picture had 7 hunting dogs coupled all together. The ability to live in a pack is still there in the breed although many dogs that lack the proper upbringing are not great candidates for a crowded, urban, multi-dog home.
For the loyalty aspect, the description for Jindos swings in a pendulum. At one time, they were considered one-owner dogs and could never accept a new master. If sold to a new person, they would escape to return to their original master. Understandably with Jindos in shelters, their reputation was tweaked but to the extreme that some people say ANY Jindo can easily accept a new master. The truth... somewhere in between. It depends on the dog, it depends on how the original owner treated the dog, and it depends on how the new owner treats the dog.
I've met quite a few "purebred" Jindo dogs in Los Angeles on neutral territory and at their home. Imports and 1st generation domestic. From Seoul, from Jindo island, and from other sources. Some dogs catagorized as show dogs and others as hunting dogs. The biggest problem I see in soCal is not so much the lack of quality dogs who can be trained, but a disproportional lack of quality owners. A quality owner, in my view, is not necessarily the super experienced dog person with tons of dog handling skills in their resume. It's someone with a willingness to learn, adapt, and grow into a dog-savy owner.
I'll stop with this picture of 4 trained Jindos, not trying to kill each other. :-)
A Karelian Bear Dog is probably not for a person who isn't -very- into the outdoors. I knew a girl with one and it was not the type of dog, at least for her, that had the right temperament to be a housedog. I don't mean, sit around the house all day, but I mean the type that you could exercise outdoors and then bring back home to live with you indoors. Of course, others may have other experiences but this is just from what I know.
As for Alaskan Klee Kai, I really doubt that a well-bred AKK is 2x the cost of a similarly well-bred Shikokuken. We are highly involved with AKK and most of the breeders (of which there is only a limited amount) do price pet puppies (and all-white, disqualified ones at 1/2 price) very reasonably. If a Shikokuken is 1/2 the price of Lilith, that would really be less than most pet-quality pups of even the most popular breeds.
And Jindo. I do consider the Jindo, at least a purebred, Korean one, to be quite "spitz"y in its temperament.. we fostered one for only a short time and that was our experience. He has since found his forever home with a family with no dogs (he didn't like all of our other dogs).
And, sorry, Ippus, but I do contest your assessment that many dogs are "sloppy and dumb". I believe all dogs can be bright if given the correct training and inducement suitable to their breed. You aren't likely to get the same results from a German Shepherd Dog and from, say, a Chow Chow, not because one is dumber than another, but because one may be more suited to the training style you offer, and the other, not. Some are just not biddable in the sense that they don't find enjoyment in "pleasing" the owner. Many "more cultivated" dogs are more dependent on humans because that's the reason behind their breeding. Many primitive breeds are more independent by nature, and perhaps the independence is what you're looking for.