I'm almost afraid to bring this up...

because I've never ever seen it mentioned directly. I'm afraid it might be somehow taboo or gauche, but I'm afraid I really have to ask. I would absolutely LOVE to bring a Shikoku into my family, but I'm not a rich man. I understand all about the cost of care and all, but I'd like to get a rough idea how much I'd have to pay for a Shikoku pup and papers.

My wife really doesn't like the idea of paying for a purebred, when there are so many nice rescues to be had, and I partly agree (although she just recently had a couple of Brittany Spaniels, which makes her attitude just a teensy bit hypocritical)... but I'd really like to see a number, just so I know if it really is a pipe dream to think of adopting a Shikoku.

Would some of you mind terribly telling me what you paid or would expect to pay?
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Comments

  • edited June 2009
    It really depends on a lot of factors. Your best bet is to talk to the breeders and see what they have planned. I started looking into getting a Shikoku earlier this year (before some plans changed) and I was informed that prices would be $2400-$2800, they are always changing though so I would defanatley start talking to breeders if you are serious about the process.

    Also, since Shika's aren't common here in the US the waiting lists can be lengthy and I would expect to wait at least a year or more for a pup.
  • edited November -1
    The best way to find out would probably be to contact breeders directly. I've heard a lot of different costs, so I think the breeders determine the price by several factors. One being the quality of te individual dog, and also, I think it depends on how much that particular breeding cost them. Also, I suspect that the price will go down with the number growing.

    Other than the original purchase price, they cost the same as any other dog. I'm not rich either, but dogs are basically my passion, so I don't mind investing a significant amount of money in something I plan to have for 10-15 years. Besides, they make me happier than other things I could spend that money on.
  • edited November -1
    Definately talk to the breeder, the prices are always changing due to circumstances. I will not put down the amount my shika pups is priced at, don't want to give you false expections. But I would have to say this, comparing a shikoku puppy with other hard to find breeds, they are pretty reasonable. Tom was thinking of getting a Klee Kai (mini-husky, the fact that is is kind of a designer dog brings up the price as well), but the cost of a pet quality pup is alomst twice the amount of my quoted price for a show quality Shikoku.
  • edited June 2009
    Nevermind, everyone else responded to you. I agree with what everyone else have said. I've heard of some breeds (King's Cavalier Spaniels, English Bulldogs, etc.) going higher than 5k from reputable breeders.

    The dog community is not immune to the economics of supply and demand.

    I wish you the best of luck. I'm also in a similar situation as you in terms of wanting a Shikoku to join my Shiba.

    Thanks,
    Jesse
  • edited November -1
    Hey Philip,

    I am on a waiting list for a shikoku with Katja Weber in B.C. My contract is for $2,200.00 U.S.
  • edited November -1
    *sigh* Eh, if it was just me, I'd probably do it anyway. It really is an investment in a companion who will be with you for more than a decade... but I'd never get my wife to agree.

    I was honestly kinda looking at Siberian Huskies for awhile, because I want a fairly rugged dog that can keep up with me... but their temperament isn't really what I'm looking for. Shikoku-ken seem absolutely ideal in that respect, you know. Wow, this is heartbreaking. I'll just have to keep hoping, I guess.
  • edited November -1
    What kind of temperament are you looking for in a dog?
  • edited June 2009
    Highly intelligent & active, trainable, independent-thinking but not stubborn, I think that's the gist of it.

    To be honest, I've met a few dogs over the years who displayed dominance or aggressiveness toward their owners, and way too many who were - not to put too fine a point on it - sloppy and dumb.
  • edited November -1
    There are some other spitz breeds that are more bidable. The Scandanavian breeds, for instance. There are also other hunting spitz breeds that are similar in many ways. Karelian Bear Dogs, the laikas, and such.

    You probably could rescue a dog that fits your criteria, too.
  • edited November -1
    I just met the most adorable family of Buhund, some pups and parents (pups weren't as cute as Shiba). They are exceedingly smart little herding spitzies, and very willing to please, a little larger than Shiba but probably not as tall as Shikoku. I have my eye on some, but we will see, the barking may be a little much. I agree on the pricing you were given for Shikoku in North America.
  • edited November -1
    I've considered getting a buhund for a herding dog. They're adorable. I will probably still get one some day, but then I really will have to decide if I'm going to focus on the Iceland sheepdog or the Buhund!
  • edited June 2009
    Another reason I'm interested in Shikoku, aside from the fact that they're utterly beautiful... seriously, I've never seen the like... is that I like the fact that they're a more primitive breed. The dumb factor seems to go up the longer a given breed has been under cultivation, so to speak. Any leads on other primitive breeds, or are they most likely to be found within the general spitz group?

    Buhunds seem pretty neat, karelian bear dogs, too...
  • edited June 2009
    Buhunds are a nice breed to work with. They have elements of the spitz very similar to Shibas but some do bark a bit more. They have a better drive in some instances but not over the top border collie nuts. Heck the Shibas even do a double take when they see a buh at the training center. However, there are some that can be a bit standoffish or head shy, so again it depends on breeding and early socialization. All that I have encountered in the service dog program have finished as hearing or therapy dogs. They have a pretty good track record in that regard.

    Looking at the agility stats over time after this year will be interesting and may tell more about its versatility.

    Snf
  • edited November -1
    Well, there's the akita. Kai, too. I don't think they tend to cost as much as shikoku... I don't know, though, I don't own either.
  • edited November -1
    Kai Ken have a temperament similar to what you described and are sold in the states for $500 - $1000. There are also many in the rescue system.

    They may be slightly harder to train than a Shikoku but they have better problem solving skills and are less likely to roam, imo. Also, Kai Ken are more rugged than Shikoku, and some may argue that they are more "primitive" (depending on your definition of the term).

    ----
  • edited November -1
    Akita are tough, but I wouldn't consider them rugged. When the weather reaches extremes out here - hot, cold, rain snow, wind - our Shikoku and Kai will be outside and our Akita and Shiba will be inside.

    Also hiking an Akita is nice, until you have to cross any amount of water - then forget it - you will be dragging a 70+lb dog across a tiny puddle.

    I have only experience with import lines tho, American Akita may be more rugged.

    ----
  • edited November -1
    What about Basenji's, or Jindos (plenty of Jindos in rescue)? I agree on the Laika's, lovely dogs. Never heard of a Buhund before, pretty.

    Jesse
  • edited November -1
    Buhund are supposed to be excellent agility dogs. They are on my top 5 list of potential additional breeds. Ike DID do a double take when we met them. For a few moments, he was super excited thinking they were Shiba.

    How about the Elkhound?
  • edited June 2009
    Basenji are not usually what works at the assistance level. Very independent....Though they are cool dogs. Jindos, only very few have met the criteria when we took them in for eval. Most were not flexible enough to work around other dogs off lead in terms of people in wheelchairs and walkers and hospital visits. They calm down but they just aren't that eager to please in most cases until much older.

    Snf
  • edited November -1
    Brad lives with both breeds, Shikoku and Kai so his description of the breeds is probably the best, but I would say, with my limited knowledge, that Kai are more primitive, sturdy, and rugged than Shikoku. You can find them for up to $1,000 plus shipping costs if you do not live near a breeder.

    Jindo IMO are a lot like Shibas. They can be difficult to train, will do what they want, and have boundless amounts of energy. I wouldn't recommend either without really doing some major research to find out if either one are the best breed for you. I also wouldn't call a Jindo "primitive". Under my definition of the word. You may find one who likes to hike with you, but that would be up to the individual dog not really the breed from what I have seen.

    With all of that said, I'm totally bias towards Kais and Akitas, as far as the Nihon Ken go.
  • edited November -1
    You know, if anything, maybe you can contact one of the shikoku breeders and offer to take a dog that may be returned or a retired breeder. They wouldn't be a puppy, and the wait may be longer than for a puppy; but the price would probably be cheaper, don't have to go through the puppy phase and you would have a basic idea of the personality of the dog. Just a thought.

    Generally, "primitive" and intelligent, independent dogs are usually of the Spitz type, mainly because the original breeding intention was for work instead of companionship. They had done studies breeding foxes with a good temperament, of which they started to develop curly tails, floppy ears and various coat colors/patterns.
  • aykayk
    edited November -1
    tjbart17,

    I'm curious in the reasons why you wouldn't consider a Jindo primitive?



    -Ann
  • edited June 2009
    NOT incorporating all other expenses:
    ...roundtrip flight (US - JP & JP - US)
    ...flight to other areas within Japan
    ...ground transportation fees (train, subway, taxi, bus)
    ...health certificate for travel
    ...crate
    ...other expenses (i.e. hotel, food, etc)


    I paid 100,000 Yens (about $1,000) for Shoushuu
    and 170,000 Yens (about $1,700) for Kotomi

    My Shikoku were born in Japan. I got my dogs from one breeder who has 5 different lines, but it does vary from breeder to breeder...some charge 200,000 Yens or more (about $2,000+). Prices are usually depending on particular breedings, availablity, other costs involved and the current economy.

    If you want to go for an "average" I think about $2,000 is about right.

    --------------------------------

    Maybe you and your wife can come to some sort of an agreement? I mean, obviously she likes dogs, so it isn't the actual dog that's the problem. Just the pricing of this particular dog...correct?

    --------------------------------

    Kai Ken are very nice dogs too -smiles-.
  • edited June 2009
    Wow. Thanks so much everybody for all the great info and alternatives!
  • edited November -1
    Ann,
    We have quite a few Jindo's here in California. Now, it might just be that they were overbreed, mixed, or whatever other reason that deferred them from their origin, but personality wise I would not say they are "primitive."

    Ok, so that is such a generic word that I guess I have to explain. I see Jindo as being too hyperactive to concentrate and not too loyal to one person or a pack. I see a lack of "community" in them that a primitive pack type dog would have.

    I do not want to put the breed down at all. They are very pretty dogs who can make great pets to the right person who has done their homework. They need A LOT of care and attention. I have said this in the past, and I will keep saying it there are WAY too many in shelters here and that's because they are not dogs for unexperienced owners.

    I heard my neighbor yelling at 6am for Scooter her Jindo this morning. (Not a primitive name....lololol) It was what woke me up. He escaped and was running down the street. She always complains about him tearing up the house and yard. He is walked everyday, but I would think that he would do better, not be so destructive, if he was in doggy daycare everyday and was walked 2-3 times per day. All he wants to do is get out of that house. Koda and I will probably be taking him hiking with us. I think he needs it, and I'm sure my neighbor doesn't do it enough.
  • aykayk
    edited June 2009
    Thank you for sharing your perspective but I've got to share another side of Jindos.

    I've raised 4 Jindos at one time myself. Two of them were actually littermate sisters which is usually the craziest pairing you can think of for most any breed. In Arizona, they could all be let loose in the yard and in the house with no supervision. They wouldn't argue about caught lizards, birds, or get displaced aggression against the stray cat teasing them on top of a fence. Three of the dogs have gone through at least two sessions of formal obedience school. Though they didn't have a high interest in food treats, they did just fine in learning the commands. Though I've never enter the novice class to do off-leash work, they have done long-distance recalls from across a fenced high school field just dragging a 6 ft leash. The fourth dog was too shy to bring to class (panicked when man-handled into positions like they often did back then), but she picked up the commands from simply watching me train the other dogs. The ability to learn and concentrate is definately there if only the owner knows how to tap into it. I will conceed that when young, one of my dogs was extremely hyperactive and was a very destructive chewer, but he did eventually mellowed out with age and get his CGC and ATTS.

    I have one friend who owns a pack of Jindos and Malamutes and another friend who owns Jindos, American Akitas, and a Japanese Akita. I've seen pictures and a video of a hunting pack of Jindos in Korea. One picture had 7 hunting dogs coupled all together. The ability to live in a pack is still there in the breed although many dogs that lack the proper upbringing are not great candidates for a crowded, urban, multi-dog home.

    For the loyalty aspect, the description for Jindos swings in a pendulum. At one time, they were considered one-owner dogs and could never accept a new master. If sold to a new person, they would escape to return to their original master. Understandably with Jindos in shelters, their reputation was tweaked but to the extreme that some people say ANY Jindo can easily accept a new master. The truth... somewhere in between. It depends on the dog, it depends on how the original owner treated the dog, and it depends on how the new owner treats the dog.

    I've met quite a few "purebred" Jindo dogs in Los Angeles on neutral territory and at their home. Imports and 1st generation domestic. From Seoul, from Jindo island, and from other sources. Some dogs catagorized as show dogs and others as hunting dogs. The biggest problem I see in soCal is not so much the lack of quality dogs who can be trained, but a disproportional lack of quality owners. A quality owner, in my view, is not necessarily the super experienced dog person with tons of dog handling skills in their resume. It's someone with a willingness to learn, adapt, and grow into a dog-savy owner.

    I'll stop with this picture of 4 trained Jindos, not trying to kill each other. :-)

    image
  • edited November -1
    I'm really new here but I just have a few things to add in regards to all the dogs mentioned here:

    A Karelian Bear Dog is probably not for a person who isn't -very- into the outdoors. I knew a girl with one and it was not the type of dog, at least for her, that had the right temperament to be a housedog. I don't mean, sit around the house all day, but I mean the type that you could exercise outdoors and then bring back home to live with you indoors. Of course, others may have other experiences but this is just from what I know.

    As for Alaskan Klee Kai, I really doubt that a well-bred AKK is 2x the cost of a similarly well-bred Shikokuken. We are highly involved with AKK and most of the breeders (of which there is only a limited amount) do price pet puppies (and all-white, disqualified ones at 1/2 price) very reasonably. If a Shikokuken is 1/2 the price of Lilith, that would really be less than most pet-quality pups of even the most popular breeds.

    And Jindo. I do consider the Jindo, at least a purebred, Korean one, to be quite "spitz"y in its temperament.. we fostered one for only a short time and that was our experience. He has since found his forever home with a family with no dogs (he didn't like all of our other dogs).

    And, sorry, Ippus, but I do contest your assessment that many dogs are "sloppy and dumb". I believe all dogs can be bright if given the correct training and inducement suitable to their breed. You aren't likely to get the same results from a German Shepherd Dog and from, say, a Chow Chow, not because one is dumber than another, but because one may be more suited to the training style you offer, and the other, not. Some are just not biddable in the sense that they don't find enjoyment in "pleasing" the owner. Many "more cultivated" dogs are more dependent on humans because that's the reason behind their breeding. Many primitive breeds are more independent by nature, and perhaps the independence is what you're looking for.
  • edited November -1
    yeah, I don't think anyone was saying the opposite of that about KBDs.
  • edited June 2009
    I think you may have a point, Yuki, and I appreciate the correction. You're probably right in that there is an independent-thinking quality that I value, perhaps to the point where I fail to recognize - or value - other qualities to the degree I should.
  • edited November -1
    I haven't been ignoring this thread, just out of town. Thank you Philip for sharing your opinion with me.
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