breeder or puppy mill

Comments

• tsukitsune

  August 2009 edited November -1

  This is a good preliminary list to familiarize yourself with:
  http://www.jlhweb.net/Boxermap/reputablebreeder.html/
• ljowen123

  August 2009 edited November -1

  I hate that you got bashed. As a forum, we need to be thankful when someone starts looking for more information. If you've got your pup before joining the forum, you couldn't have known. If you got him after joining the forum, we may not have done our part to educate.
  
  The important thing is that you are here and looking for information to help guide others. Thanks for coming back, even though you got bashed.
• lindsayt

  August 2009 edited November -1

  When they say stuff like, "great gift", "rare colours", "various sizes to choose from", "AKC bloodlines" or "we are not a puppy mill", you know there was an issue for them somewhere in the past and that's also something that is not really great (granted pedigrees are not the end all be all).
• BradA1878

  August 2009 edited November -1

  I have learned that, unless you go and meet the people or have someone you know personally and trust that has met them, it's a crap shoot.
  
  ----
• lindsayt

  August 2009 edited November -1

  Good call.
• PLwarped59

  August 2009 edited November -1

  Anyone who sells their puppies to a pet store is a puppy mill, aka commercial breeder. A puppy mill is a place where the dogs are bred for profit, without consideration of temperaments or breed conformation. Some actually do care for them as far as health goes, but thats just to have healthy looking dogs to sell and it stops there. A puppy mill doesnt mean it has to be a junkyard or disgusting and unclean, though many are. But when you consider socialization, playtime, exercise, and other things a dog should have, those are things puppy mills will never provide. The dogs are kennel kept. They are dollar signs. Puppies are churned out in high numbers to provide someone with an income. When you see the price of a puppy in a pet store, remember that the store paid about a fifth of what they want from customers. That $1000 Shiba was bought from a supplier (who got the puppies from the breeder) for around 200-300 dollars. In order for a breeder to afford letting a puppy go for that they would have to be selling a lot of puppies very, very often. The large production number would get them regular buyers and discounts on vaccinations (if they actually give any). So if you think about the ridiculous number of puppies you would have to be selling and how many dogs one would have to have in order to produce that, how could anyone have time to consider genetics, temperaments, breed standards, and good dog care and interaction. Or why would they bother for that matter, when that little cream Shiba can be called "rare" and sold for more? A breeder that isnt a puppy mill would have their dogs compete or perform in something like conformation, obedience, tracking, or working in some manner, etc. It shows the dedication to the breed, because in order for a dog to perform well you would have to care about everything a commercial breeder does not. You want to know they have done and do things like that with their dogs themselves. Meeting a breeder in person is always better, but if you know what to look for you can find a good breeder no matter the distance. A website can be a good front fro false advertising.
  
  Other will have more to add, too.
• Mylo

  August 2009 edited November -1

  Always look out for people who want to get the dogs out quickly. You can always try calling them under a false name (or just not give a name) and ask if they would allow you to do things that strict breeders would not allow. aka "Can I please please please get the puppy at 5 weeks old?" If they say yes... Bad news all over it! Or you can try the line "I'm thinking of getting a dog as a gift for my husband/aunt/mother/brother." Any responsible breeder will ask for way more info from you about that person, encourage you to make the decision WITH that person, or just not let you have a puppy at all.
  
  There are other clues you can look for though, like how many litters they produce per year. A lot of well run breeders will limit their litters in order to properly provide for each one. It's always a good question to ask to get a feel for their priorities.
  
  I hope this helps a bit =0)
• StaticNfuzz

  November 2009 edited November 2009

  Considering we are heading into the holidays I want to re-emphasize DONT BUY PETS ONLINE. http://www.internetpuppies.org/legalside.htm
  
  It is so easy to just point and click on a cute picture. However, behind the photo may be an different tale and not the kind you would expect.
  
  Snf
  
  
  Best Friends Society provided this valuable article.
  The direct link can be obtained from http://www.internetpuppies.org/legalside.htm
  
  Selling Pets Online: Best Friends Animal Society’s position
  http://www.bestfriends.org/
  
  Best Friends Animal Society is opposed to the sale of pets on the Internet. The Web is
  fast becoming one of the most dangerous enablers for pet abuse and exploitation;
  thousands of websites, with millions of entries of animals for sale are cropping up at an
  alarming rate. Meanwhile, millions of animals flood into the country’s shelters every
  year; of these, 4-5 million are euthanized. At least 25% of the dogs in shelters are from a
  breeder or a breeding operation. Encouraging people to breed more animals by giving
  them a cheap and easy way to sell them contributes to this problem.
  Websites that allow pet “for sale” ads provide an inexpensive and unmonitored vessel for
  the sale of live animals. Pets sold through Internet ads are often shipped to customers,
  sight unseen. Despite claims of being a “small kennel,” with “home-raised” puppies,
  countless puppy mills are now using the Internet to sell their puppies direct to the public,
  skipping the pet store middle man.
  While we do not recommend buying puppies in pet stores, Internet sales are even riskier,
  for both the customers and the animals. The reason is, puppy mills and all breeders who
  sell pets online operate with no oversight from the USDA and often without state or local
  oversight to ensure pets are raised humanely, and are healthy. Puppy mill breeders are
  increasingly shifting to Internet sales because they can legally drop their USDA license
  and continue to sell puppies. Websites that allow pets to be sold are what makes this
  possible.Since online buyers are not privy to the living conditions of the animals, they acquire
  what they think is a cute, healthy animal. However, when puppies get sick, or are found
  to have genetic defects—common situations with commercially-bred, puppy mill dogs,
  there is little or no recourse for the customer who purchased the pet online. Pet “lemon
  laws,” enacted in many states, are difficult to enforce when animals are shipped out of
  state. Sellers also often tout a puppy’s registration papers or pedigree, which is an implied
  statement of health or quality to the customer, but is no actual guarantee or indication of a
  puppy’s health, quality, or that it was raised in a humane way.
  The online sale of animals perpetuates suffering and adds to the pet-overpopulation
  problem."
• kati

  November 2009 edited November -1

  I'm no expert and I don't currently own a Nihon-ken. But from what I have heard here is research research research. Definitely meet the breeder, the pups parents, etc. Don't be in a rush. See if the breeder will provide references like previous buyers and find out about their experiences. I am currently on a 2 year learning/research plan, even though Akita are readily available I want to do as much research as possible on various breeders. Even then nothing guarantees perfection and great health. I've had pups that have come from good strong stock but ended up with cancer, etc... Internet sales make me uncomfortable, you're selling a living being not a couch.. Know what I mean?
• violet_in_seville

  November 2009 edited November -1

  Also, places that have lots of litters per year, breed more than 2-3 breeds of dogs (and to be honest I would just say 2), places that don't screen you rigorously and ask you lots of questions about your circumstances (for instance, we rent so we had to provide a copy of our lease and a signed letter from our landlady stating that she would allow us to keep a dog), places that don't compete in some sort of show (be it conformation, agility, obedience, or something else). Also keep in mind that just because a breeder owns a champion or two does not mean that they actually compete. I've seen at least one thinly disguised shiba mill in NJ have a champion or two but those were dogs that were purchased from breeders that actually did show.
  
  A good breeder should ask you a ton of questions, ask you for references, and will usually have a very vigorous contract. The contract terms should usually have (at the least):
  
  - requirements for neutering or spaying
  - a mandatory vet check within the first 3 days
  - obedience or puppy kindergarten (for socialization purposes)
  - a lifetime health guarantee
  - a clause stating that they will take the dog back at any point if you find that you can no longer keep the pet
  
  Also, to be honest (and this is judgmental) I don't understand, unless someone is getting a puppy from overseas, how it would be that they are unable to visit the breeder if they are interested in getting a puppy from them. I would hope for the sake of the dog, that one would be willing to make the invest of time and/or money to make a trip out to the breeder at least once (and a good breeder would prefer the potential adopter visit at least once I believe).
• tjbart17

  November 2009 edited November -1

  Good advice! I also want to add that a breeder may want regular updates and the allowance to come and visit and keep in touch. Welcome these opportunities.