Miso doesn't know "speak" but he does know "Thank You" as a command to STOP barking. When he is alerted to something outside he will bark, I just say "THANK YOU" and he stops because he knows that I now know of the "danger" outside the window (usually just a bicycle going by).
Jessica, we got the idea from one of Pryors books I think we're really into her training ideas.
Kristin, we tried that and failed miserably though it is early days yet. We're still trying but will also be trying the first training method. Whichever works, lol.
I think it's funny how your dog has picked up "Thank you" as a cue to stop barking. Ours have too. Except Yoshiki told me I should probably not say "Thank you" because if our neighbors heard, they might misinterpret it as "Thank you for barking at the neighbors", lol.
Anyone ever see the movie "Garden State"? There was a GSD named Ice or something who played a service dog who humps Zach Braff in a Dr's waiting room.
In the 'making of' documentary they showed the trainer with the dog, to which the action was clearly the 'reward'. His 'command' was "who's your bitch". The ASPCA was there making sure the dog was safe, etc.
Anyway, to 'teach' a dog to do something it already knows HOW to do, just HOW to control it and therefore make a natural action/drive the reward. I thought it was fascinating, but yes I think its exploiting to a point, because i'm a human and I'm sensitive to certain aspects of sexuality just like everyone else is to a degree.
But then, wouldn't pushing be similar? Its something Natural Dog Trainers use as the first 'portal' into the dog's energy and its relation to you. The dog pushes into you while you feed it by hand, and you give some resistance to the dog to make it push harder into you. Lee Charles Kelley explains this with much more clarity, but the point is - this is something the dog already KNOWS how to do.. it knows how to push into you if you have something it needs/wants. But you are showing the dog that this action begets the reward of the food in my hand when you do it. Am I exploiting their natural tendency to push towards a desired object/prey when resistance exists? Yes, but I'm not bothered by it.
Same with a basic sit, I guess. It already knows HOW to sit, you show the dog to do it to a certain signal and a reward is offered. Exploiting? I'm not sure which drive this taps into, but it is related. Its all related.
So, with the defense drive/protection work.. yes I do think its exploiting BUT this is what the dog was born to do, this is its job, its function in MAN's world. So, you 'teach it' by controlling what it naturally does anyway, just when and to what degree. Ethical in the sense that you are molding the dog to be the best at its function as defined by you.
Regardless if a youtube video stars a trainer, or what the action is - I think if any of this is done for our entertainment only or for our pure amusement at the expense of the safety or wellbeing of the dog, Or if the action stresses or otherwise puts the dog in any sort of ill comfort - than the exploiting is and will always be unethical.
I've been trying the teach-to-prevent technique with Shira. She used to stand up and put her paws on furniture/me/other people, which I'm not a fan of. So as she'd put her paws up, I'd say "on!", treat, and so forth til she got it. Then the same for "off". Now "off" means paws off missy! She still paws things (mostly when food is on the coffee table) so I haven't really rid her of that behavior, but at least now I don't have to get up to remove her I'm trying the same with speak. She seems to understand the word/hand signal 90% of the time. Only about 70% that "okay" or "thank you" means no more, though it's tougher because she only barks once with speak anyway!
Ive written a bunch this morning, trying this different ways, but taking too long to finish, so I will try to take my turn quickly.
- yeah the video still bugs me, probably because its a sex video in public by someone I respect. That said, I think the dog and Donaldson enjoyed it, so good on them. Whether it is on cue or used as a reinforcer is fine and the whole thing is none of my business and I can opt not to watch, laugh at or snort soda up my nose over humpy dog videos. I agree it does make sense that if you have an incorrigibly humpy dog it is better to bring it under cue and direct it to appropriate times and objects. handy. I think she is rewarding the dog with the privelige (?) of humping her leg, which is clever if that's what the dog finds so rewarding, I dont like that she makes fun of Buffy though for the audience. and now I am done I think with that.
- So, can we reinforce a behavior with an opp to defend as the reward? Defending is satisying, for sure, but I think it is satisfying only in the presence of the fear it relieves, necessitating the application of fear to produce the defense response. Brad, correct me if I am wrong please- if the dog behaves with pursuit and effort toward an object but NOT out of fear, it is probably Prey drive or a play enactment of prey drive? Is it fear that makes the difference? If so, I know that my dog, Sage, is not the solid dog you describe who can switch emotionally from fear to attack, and thus for HIM, I cannot ethically apply fear to stimulate a relieving/satisfying defense reaction. It'd be like rubbing poison ivy on him so he could get a rash to scratch, because scratching feels so good. But for a solid dog that can switch I guess that is what protection training does, right? Someone here does schutzhund- is it Corina and Lynxiene? Is there fear in protection training, or is the dog always playing a biting game with the sleeve? Is it prey or defense, or for that matter, offense?
- I don't know if Sage is really "game" because from what I can tell by googling, gameness is intensely eager, confident, fearless and never quitting on a task. I think he does have a defense drive that yells louder to him than his devotion to me, which is also impressively strong (and which is also a quality of game dogs). But he is fearful, often right after a surge he searches desperately for a private place to defecate. He is not being brave, and he is not hardworking. I think Sage is much more like a wary wild animal (outside of his pack and home where he is like a normal dog we all expect) than like a game dog.
- Job 1= keep Sage safe, dont expose unnecessarily to triggers- walk when nobody else is out. Job 2- provide clear instruction/choices for coping when we DO see a Scary. Job 3= enrich the den, yard, territory with fun, games, training, and belonging, companionship so the home base is not compromised. Exercise his non-reactive drives with play. Are non-reactive drives (such as prey drive) then "assertive drives?"
Brad, correct me if I am wrong please- if the dog behaves with pursuit and effort toward an object but NOT out of fear, it is probably Prey drive or a play enactment of prey drive? >> Yes, I believe that is true.
Is it fear that makes the difference? >> Yes, mos def.
Sage, is not the solid dog you describe who can switch emotionally from fear to attack. >> Few dogs are, that is why a "balanced dog" is so valuable to a PP trainer (or any person who needs a working dog).
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Is there fear in protection training, or is the dog always playing a biting game with the sleeve? Is it prey or defense, or for that matter, offense? >> A good decoy (trainer) will lean into the dog to get a defensive response, then move back to the sleeve biting game. This keeps the dog moving in-and-out of the 2 drives without over stressing. All dogs need defensive drive, that is what keeps them safe/alive - prey drive is what keeps them happy and why they love "games". Schutzhund is a test the Germans came up with to test dogs before they were allowed to be trainer for the military, so it's important the the decoy push the dog into defensive to test their recovery time. You don't want a dog that snaps and wants the throat of the decoy when pushed into defense (*cough* Masha/Luytiy) and you also don't want a dog that shuts down when pushed there either (*cough* Lani/Maui). You want one that can take a little scare and move on.
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I don't know if Sage is really "game" because from what I can tell by googling, gameness is intensely eager, confident, fearless and never quitting on a task. >> LOL! Sorry, not laughing at you, just laughing at the rhetoric of the fighting world. Of course they want the qualities that make a dog "game" to be sold as confident and fearless!!!
Truth is, how many confident dogs feel the need to fight? Not many!
Who's more confident: the dog that snaps at another dog when they look at them wrong or the dog that ignores the other dog's look and moves on?
How many "alpha wolves" do you see fighting?
Who's more confident, the dog that gets all stiff and tough looking when a dog wants to play with them, or the dog that's initializing the play?
It takes a lot more confidence to walk away from a person who is being abusive toward you or picking a fight, right? It takes a lot more confidence to introduce your self to a new person - doesn't it?
For a dog fighter, Gameness = Scared out of their mind, completely alienated from the world (under socialized), HUGE defensive drive, a little prey drive (you know just enough to give chase when the opponent runs away - OUT OF FEAR), and a bit too "well practiced" in the behavior of fighting. (don't like one of your dog's behaviors - don't let them practice it, right?)
You think fighting dogs are being brave? Most of the time their master poke them in the side with a stick to trigger the fight. Poor dogs are scared out of their minds (maybe even literally - hints the mental illness theory).
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- and finally, since we have Jean Donaldson, Brad and C.A.T. in the same thread- have you read her take on CAT? >> Haha, yes I've read that. I would like to see a setup where you could do a similar type of training as C.A.T. but with a different reinforcer. Like treats... I would like to see that done, the same structure as C.A.T. but instead feeding treats to the dog for acting appropriately. I wounder how that would work? Really, not being rhetorical, I'm being serious. Seems the environment is too volatile to get the same results from R+.
Jen - That was an interesting post. The pushing concept is something I am still trying to get my head around. It feels a bit like voodoo to me (all the energy talk), but I'm so intrigued by the basis of the training method.
Lynxiene and Shoushuu both approve of "humping" as a reward! Kotomi has no idea of what to make of this...she just wants the food .
A trainer's job is to find out what motivates a dog.
Then find out which motivation would be best. It may be 1 drive, 2 drives or a combination of drives...depending on that individual dog.
One uses whichever gets good results. And it really doesn't matter how one choices to get there, so long as they're producing results and the dog is happy, healthy, having fun and has a full/clear understanding of "the game". Sometimes certain behaviors or wanted responses warrants use of another drive. Again, doesn't matter how one gets there so long as the dog isn't being ruined, but made a better dog.
I do not find this video clip in any way offensive, instead I find it amusing. Once one gets suckered into the world of canines and then works with a lot of dogs, one starts to become creative and "thinks outside the box". And believe me, we appreciate creativity...one can expand oneself as a trainer and one can bring out more of a dog's potiential.
I agree...to get a dog to stop doing something is to teach the dog how to do it and when to do it. Thus giving the trainer control of the behavior, kinda like an "on" and "off" switch. And no, I don't like robotic dogs either. I like teaching my dogs to think for themselves and to do things for themselves. So they have times when they are allowed to "self-reward".
All drives have their uses, even fear. While I do not like to see fear-based obedience (complying simply for the sake of avoiding a correction), you can tell this kind of training...as the dog is generally crouched low, alert/focused and worried, I do see its uses for other things. There are definitely times I want my dog to be truely afraid. These are times in which my dog has the chance to demostrate self-decision. The idea of using fear in this particular situation is to motivate the dog to make the right decision...
...my example for a fear-based...if my dog is dog aggressive and REALLY wants to "go after" that other dog. She better demostrate a ton of self-control and decide for herself that this isn't a wise choice. Why? Cause otherwise I will kick her ass (pardon my word choice, but this is more effective)! Should she decide to "go after" another dog she'll have to deal with the consequences. The wise choice would be to just sit there, ignore the other dog and behave for mommy. What's in it for the dog? Absolutely no severe punishment and all the rewards she loves .
In protection sports, an important thing to teach is how to handle and work under "pressure". In other words, teaching a dog to deal with stress. It's vital, especially for those who want to be competitive and do high level trials (i.e. the World Championships).
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By the way Brad , to promote confidence both in weak dogs and as reinforcements for other dogs in protection...we'll have several different people or just the decoy (depending on the dog) "run away scared"/"move away"/"back off" (in other words relieve pressure) at the slightest bark. In all dogs, we teach them that THEY CONTROL the decoy's movement with their bark .
I think we should all come over and practice "running away" from Luytiy! It actually sounds like fun, lol.
*** [Is there a preview before post option? I'm always editing my posts for silly typos and such, lol...ah well] ***
I mean that Sage isn't being brave as an illustration of his fear, not my perception of fighting dogs. Brave is functioning despite fear and my dog isn't there yet. I really know nothing about fighting dogs, guard dogsr personal Protection training. And some of you do, so I am all ears.
The confident dog you describe is Reilly exactly. Every example you made. Perhaps with her as my first, I expect too much of my second.
:edited to more appropriately absorb Brad's enthusiasm, not get reactive to it:
Having met Sage, and seeing his demonstrations when frightened (the roofers next door), I would say he does in fact qualify as possessing "gameness". Piglet did too.
"if my dog is dog aggressive and REALLY wants to "go after" that other dog. She better demonstrate a ton of self-control and decide for herself that this isn't a wise choice. Why? Cause otherwise I will kick her ass (pardon my word choice, but this is more effective)! Should she decide to "go after" another dog she'll have to deal with the consequences. The wise choice would be to just sit there, ignore the other dog and behave for mommy. What's in it for the dog? Absolutely no severe punishment and all the rewards she loves ."
This is what I have been conflicted about: I think Corina's example is providing the dog a very clear choice. one option is BAD, one option is very good! That's clarity, a YES and a NO (not a YES and a "I have no particular approval of that behavior") and going after other dogs is serious, so more than ever we need to be clear. But I have been steeping in all this positive only stuff, counter conditioning, etc. and now that I see that the lunge/bark thing is self-satisfying, I can only conclude that my rewards were nice but lunging is satisfying too, so there was no obvious clear choice and the behavior persists. Only once I started using the prong collar have I seen results more like what I hoped for, but I felt somewhat guilty. But reading Corina's words, I now wonder if I can feel better because -a) he doesnt mind wearing the prong b) I dont have to pull it, his foundation behaviors of check ins and loose leash walking are strong, so it only activates when he lunges into it c ) the clear instruction is MORE kind than wishy washiness and watching him surge over and over again. Is that right?
I get all bent out of shape by reading (too much) books that say stuff like "If you have to use one of these collars you have no place owning a dog" and "these cruel devices." but I am not using it to make my dog look tough, or because I get angry at him and want to punish/hurt him: three years of "have a treat instead" have made it abundantly clear to him that he has options and one option is tasty! Three years of loose leash walking and reinforcing auto check in have laid a foundation that he truly knows what the choices are but I *think* that only recently, with the prong, has he been able to perceive "Don't do THAT" as well as "YES! DO this." I think the fact that he knows the best choice option so well already makes it fair to let him feel the prong, because its not punishment in the absence of a YES. He knows the YES, if he didnt know what TO do, then punishing would be terribly unfair.
Using the prong in this way seems fair: I am not yelling at him, looming over him, kicking, poking, rolling, scruffing, shaking, pinning him or personally scaring him, the lunging just plain doesnt feel good anymore, and he controls whether to lunge or stick with me and my chicken. So I hope I am not a monster for going prong, but if it works to keep him choosing the good stuff, then I *think* I did better by him? We walked yesterday with treats and prong and I was so proud of him: we met strangers, we stayed and talked with two women at the corner while the lhasas (that usually set him huffing and puffing, and eventually out of his thinking brain) barked on and on and he looked toward them and studied the situation but did not even growl, he just looked & sniffed around. In fact he lay down on one hip after a few minutes. He went back and forth between visiting the new person and considering the cursing lhasas and doing what I taught him: to sit by my side for treats. He remained operational, if not perfectly Reilly-level relaxed. Not hind-brain crazy. On the way home, he heard barks and chose me and chicken, and then he SAW the barking spinning dog and still stayed calm and WITH me.
I couldn't do it with clicks & treats, so maybe I am not a good trainer, but I am tired of dicking around and self handicapping and him suffering with this reactivity, or gameness or whatever it is. We have only used the prong for a very short time but I think the clarity outweighs the prongyness. and I dont think it destroys his relationship with me, because Mama is still calm (years of practice!) and encouraging and giving chicken.
Some of you know much much more than me about drive, aggression and Sage-y kinds of dogs, so I seriously crave your - well, really "approval," but will settle for kind correction and information. As Jessica knows, I am working this all through for myself live out loud with you guys, and I will know what to believe more clearly for the process (I hope). It sucks being so unsure all the time- for both me AND Sage.
Chrystal, I wholly admire your honesty and devotion to Sage! I do not think the collar is cruel at all! I have barely any experience with dogs in general (and I really appreciate the help you and everyone else has given me so far) but in my opinion this seems like a very logical and well-thought out answer. You have exhausted every option trying to help him and he is very lucky to have you! I'm getting all emotional at work reading about your loyalty to each other Thank you for having the courage to share your experiences, even if one may seem like a mistake at the time. You have already helped me better understand my furry friend exponentially!
Crystal, the prong collar does work for certain cases. In your case I think you have wrestled with many options before moving forward with what you are doing. If you are humane and correct then it should help you out. It is obvious you are dedicated to your dogs and their welfare.
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In regard to basic obedience it would not be my first option for starting training but certainly it is there as a tool in circumstances when other methods are not working for reactive animals. My main mantra to those in training is to "use the most cooperative methods first" before moving on to harsher tactics and see a professional to make sure you are using the "tools" (collar, leash, commands etc) correctly and to develop some skill sets to coordinate activities.
I see far too many self proclaimed experts resort to the most severe methods and products at the beginning of their journey, when their "know how" is limited and their patience is thin. Particularly I worry about harsher methods since it provides some with a sort of perverse satisfaction that they are able to punish and control when most are confusing and escalating their situations more.
My point to others out there, always learn to use the tools and methods correctly so that you gain the greatest benefits and reduce the risks.
Advice here freely flows but it should be backed by a qualified trainer that can help with hands on. What you see on a video clip or gain in the info provided may not always be complete enough to ensure adequate solutions to a problem or full understanding in of a particular situation. Be wise in application of tools and methods of training.
I'm jumping in here a little late, but "exploiting" drive is what training is all about. High drive dogs make the best workers. Same with people, actually. As someone who's not particularly ambitious or motivated, sometimes I wish I could be more like those high-drive, high-energy people.
Humans use positive reinforcement all the time, too. The issue of women using sex as a reward for their husbands was brought up. It's the same for most social/family situations, really. The act of being angry at or nice to someone are negative and positive reinforcements for behaviour. If someone is behaving undesirably, you give them negative reinforcement. Either you're mad at them, or you just avoid/ignore them, which is small scale social isolation. It happens at work, it happens between friends, at school, at the gas station between strangers, and between married couples. Even if it's not on purpose, if your spouse was supposed to do something and they didn't, you're going to be annoyed and not feel like having sex with them.
As for dogs humping, well, personally I find it annoying when they're humping me or another person. Rakka occasionally tries to hump Isaac and she always knocks him over and he cries, and it's a big fuss. Tojo and Skella like to hump each other - especially when Skella's in heat, it's like they're on their honeymoon or something, lol. I don't care about that. They seem to be having a good time, so whatever. It's hard for me to imagine using sex drive in a dog for something constructive, just because it's not as direct as using prey drive for hunting, for instance. I can't really think of any humping-related activities that would be all that useful. I mean, we do routinely spay and neuter our dogs. I would also think it'd be a little trickier to really apply the reward because it's something the dog does to you, so it's not like a treat where you give the dog a treat. You'd have to have a dog that wanted to hump all the time to be able to use it.
As for me, I don't like it when dogs hump me. It's annoying.
Chrystal I don't think you have anything to worry about with using the prong collar, I only vaguely know what it is but from your description and explanations I think it's the right thing. You're right, if when it comes down to it, lunging is more satisfying than chicken then no matter how many times you offer it, the rewards not high enough. Tiger wont respond to food at all outside of the house or garden and so we stick to silence and walking the opposite of whats exciting him and vocal praise when he's calm and uses good manners I know our situation is not nearly as strong or been going on for as long but I think it's the same, the excitement of meeting a new dog and wanting to play (in a bad, rude and potentially dangerous way) far outweighs the food we're offering, so we just take it away and hope he learns that he only gets to play when he acts a certain way. He seems to be learning, some dogs just send him over the edge ha.
I think you're doing the right thing I'm, again, really proud and impressed at your dedication and love. Sage is one lucky boy.
I used a prong collar to help train Rakka not to harass the donkey. In my opinion, it's more humane than the popular choke chain. Also, not that there's anything wrong with halti's, or that I used the prong collar for pulling, but I happen to know that Rakka and Tojo would both prefer a prong collar to a head halter type anti-pulling device. I had one for Tojo once and he screamed like he was being lynched.
same experience here: Sage willingly approaches me to accept the prong collar when we leash up to go out- you all know I am very sensitive to him and overthink and if he indicated to me that this was hurting him or added to his stress, I would not make him wear it. I agree with you (Heidi) that the prong is more humane than the choke chain.
We gave a fair try to both the GL and then the Halti, and he tolerated the Halti better, but I didn't like the way his head moves if he surges with a headcollar on, It looks like he'll break his neck. The directions for activating the headcollars have you pull forward and up to constrict the loop. In a surge, Sage would buck like a swordfish and whip his head around. His discomfort and stress with halters was clear. -------------
I appreciate the discussion - its a lot to think about the whole thread through- and I thank everyone for support of Sage and I and for teasing out the variety of angles we all found on the issue of non-traditional choices of drive to train with. It was a lively one!
can I ask what the difference between the prong and the choke is? Tiger had a choke on when we rescued him and I know they're supposed to be bad for them etc, we replaced it with a nice new collar
I leave for a couple of days and miss all the excitement. Man it took me almost an hour to catch up on this thread. I'm late, really late....I personally don't mind using a dog's sex drive for training purposes. Although, humping me probably wouldn't be my choice.
Chrystal, I think you are doing a great job with Sage. I know I always say this, but I do not fault you for using a prong collar at all. I would do the same after exhausting all other options. I'm glad to hear that Sage and you had a great walk!
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Kristin, we tried that and failed miserably though it is early days yet. We're still trying but will also be trying the first training method. Whichever works, lol.
Also, I may have gotten my named mixed up, maybe it was Karen Pryor and not Donaldson.
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In the 'making of' documentary they showed the trainer with the dog, to which the action was clearly the 'reward'. His 'command' was "who's your bitch".
The ASPCA was there making sure the dog was safe, etc.
Anyway, to 'teach' a dog to do something it already knows HOW to do, just HOW to control it and therefore make a natural action/drive the reward. I thought it was fascinating, but yes I think its exploiting to a point, because i'm a human and I'm sensitive to certain aspects of sexuality just like everyone else is to a degree.
But then, wouldn't pushing be similar? Its something Natural Dog Trainers use as the first 'portal' into the dog's energy and its relation to you. The dog pushes into you while you feed it by hand, and you give some resistance to the dog to make it push harder into you. Lee Charles Kelley explains this with much more clarity, but the point is - this is something the dog already KNOWS how to do.. it knows how to push into you if you have something it needs/wants. But you are showing the dog that this action begets the reward of the food in my hand when you do it. Am I exploiting their natural tendency to push towards a desired object/prey when resistance exists? Yes, but I'm not bothered by it.
Same with a basic sit, I guess. It already knows HOW to sit, you show the dog to do it to a certain signal and a reward is offered. Exploiting? I'm not sure which drive this taps into, but it is related. Its all related.
So, with the defense drive/protection work.. yes I do think its exploiting BUT this is what the dog was born to do, this is its job, its function in MAN's world. So, you 'teach it' by controlling what it naturally does anyway, just when and to what degree. Ethical in the sense that you are molding the dog to be the best at its function as defined by you.
Regardless if a youtube video stars a trainer, or what the action is - I think if any of this is done for our entertainment only or for our pure amusement at the expense of the safety or wellbeing of the dog, Or if the action stresses or otherwise puts the dog in any sort of ill comfort - than the exploiting is and will always be unethical.
She still paws things (mostly when food is on the coffee table) so I haven't really rid her of that behavior, but at least now I don't have to get up to remove her
I'm trying the same with speak. She seems to understand the word/hand signal 90% of the time. Only about 70% that "okay" or "thank you" means no more, though it's tougher because she only barks once with speak anyway!
- yeah the video still bugs me, probably because its a sex video in public by someone I respect. That said, I think the dog and Donaldson enjoyed it, so good on them. Whether it is on cue or used as a reinforcer is fine and the whole thing is none of my business and I can opt not to watch, laugh at or snort soda up my nose over humpy dog videos. I agree it does make sense that if you have an incorrigibly humpy dog it is better to bring it under cue and direct it to appropriate times and objects. handy. I think she is rewarding the dog with the privelige (?) of humping her leg, which is clever if that's what the dog finds so rewarding, I dont like that she makes fun of Buffy though for the audience. and now I am done I think with that.
- So, can we reinforce a behavior with an opp to defend as the reward? Defending is satisying, for sure, but I think it is satisfying only in the presence of the fear it relieves, necessitating the application of fear to produce the defense response. Brad, correct me if I am wrong please- if the dog behaves with pursuit and effort toward an object but NOT out of fear, it is probably Prey drive or a play enactment of prey drive? Is it fear that makes the difference? If so, I know that my dog, Sage, is not the solid dog you describe who can switch emotionally from fear to attack, and thus for HIM, I cannot ethically apply fear to stimulate a relieving/satisfying defense reaction. It'd be like rubbing poison ivy on him so he could get a rash to scratch, because scratching feels so good. But for a solid dog that can switch I guess that is what protection training does, right? Someone here does schutzhund- is it Corina and Lynxiene? Is there fear in protection training, or is the dog always playing a biting game with the sleeve? Is it prey or defense, or for that matter, offense?
- I don't know if Sage is really "game" because from what I can tell by googling, gameness is intensely eager, confident, fearless and never quitting on a task. I think he does have a defense drive that yells louder to him than his devotion to me, which is also impressively strong (and which is also a quality of game dogs). But he is fearful, often right after a surge he searches desperately for a private place to defecate. He is not being brave, and he is not hardworking. I think Sage is much more like a wary wild animal (outside of his pack and home where he is like a normal dog we all expect) than like a game dog.
- Job 1= keep Sage safe, dont expose unnecessarily to triggers- walk when nobody else is out. Job 2- provide clear instruction/choices for coping when we DO see a Scary. Job 3= enrich the den, yard, territory with fun, games, training, and belonging, companionship so the home base is not compromised. Exercise his non-reactive drives with play. Are non-reactive drives (such as prey drive) then "assertive drives?"
- and finally, since we have Jean Donaldson, Brad and C.A.T. in the same thread- have you read her take on CAT?
http://www.jeandonaldson.com/jeans-blog-mainmenu-51/55-constructional-aggression-treatment
>> Yes, I believe that is true.
Is it fear that makes the difference?
>> Yes, mos def.
Sage, is not the solid dog you describe who can switch emotionally from fear to attack.
>> Few dogs are, that is why a "balanced dog" is so valuable to a PP trainer (or any person who needs a working dog).
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Is there fear in protection training, or is the dog always playing a biting game with the sleeve? Is it prey or defense, or for that matter, offense?
>> A good decoy (trainer) will lean into the dog to get a defensive response, then move back to the sleeve biting game. This keeps the dog moving in-and-out of the 2 drives without over stressing. All dogs need defensive drive, that is what keeps them safe/alive - prey drive is what keeps them happy and why they love "games". Schutzhund is a test the Germans came up with to test dogs before they were allowed to be trainer for the military, so it's important the the decoy push the dog into defensive to test their recovery time. You don't want a dog that snaps and wants the throat of the decoy when pushed into defense (*cough* Masha/Luytiy) and you also don't want a dog that shuts down when pushed there either (*cough* Lani/Maui). You want one that can take a little scare and move on.
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I don't know if Sage is really "game" because from what I can tell by googling, gameness is intensely eager, confident, fearless and never quitting on a task.
>> LOL! Sorry, not laughing at you, just laughing at the rhetoric of the fighting world. Of course they want the qualities that make a dog "game" to be sold as confident and fearless!!!
Truth is, how many confident dogs feel the need to fight? Not many!
Who's more confident: the dog that snaps at another dog when they look at them wrong or the dog that ignores the other dog's look and moves on?
How many "alpha wolves" do you see fighting?
Who's more confident, the dog that gets all stiff and tough looking when a dog wants to play with them, or the dog that's initializing the play?
It takes a lot more confidence to walk away from a person who is being abusive toward you or picking a fight, right? It takes a lot more confidence to introduce your self to a new person - doesn't it?
For a dog fighter, Gameness = Scared out of their mind, completely alienated from the world (under socialized), HUGE defensive drive, a little prey drive (you know just enough to give chase when the opponent runs away - OUT OF FEAR), and a bit too "well practiced" in the behavior of fighting. (don't like one of your dog's behaviors - don't let them practice it, right?)
You think fighting dogs are being brave? Most of the time their master poke them in the side with a stick to trigger the fight. Poor dogs are scared out of their minds (maybe even literally - hints the mental illness theory).
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- and finally, since we have Jean Donaldson, Brad and C.A.T. in the same thread- have you read her take on CAT?
>> Haha, yes I've read that. I would like to see a setup where you could do a similar type of training as C.A.T. but with a different reinforcer. Like treats... I would like to see that done, the same structure as C.A.T. but instead feeding treats to the dog for acting appropriately. I wounder how that would work? Really, not being rhetorical, I'm being serious. Seems the environment is too volatile to get the same results from R+.
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A trainer's job is to find out what motivates a dog.
Then find out which motivation would be best. It may be 1 drive, 2 drives or a combination of drives...depending on that individual dog.
One uses whichever gets good results. And it really doesn't matter how one choices to get there, so long as they're producing results and the dog is happy, healthy, having fun and has a full/clear understanding of "the game". Sometimes certain behaviors or wanted responses warrants use of another drive. Again, doesn't matter how one gets there so long as the dog isn't being ruined, but made a better dog.
I do not find this video clip in any way offensive, instead I find it amusing. Once one gets suckered into the world of canines and then works with a lot of dogs, one starts to become creative and "thinks outside the box". And believe me, we appreciate creativity...one can expand oneself as a trainer and one can bring out more of a dog's potiential.
I agree...to get a dog to stop doing something is to teach the dog how to do it and when to do it. Thus giving the trainer control of the behavior, kinda like an "on" and "off" switch. And no, I don't like robotic dogs either. I like teaching my dogs to think for themselves and to do things for themselves. So they have times when they are allowed to "self-reward".
All drives have their uses, even fear. While I do not like to see fear-based obedience (complying simply for the sake of avoiding a correction), you can tell this kind of training...as the dog is generally crouched low, alert/focused and worried, I do see its uses for other things. There are definitely times I want my dog to be truely afraid. These are times in which my dog has the chance to demostrate self-decision. The idea of using fear in this particular situation is to motivate the dog to make the right decision...
...my example for a fear-based...if my dog is dog aggressive and REALLY wants to "go after" that other dog. She better demostrate a ton of self-control and decide for herself that this isn't a wise choice. Why? Cause otherwise I will kick her ass (pardon my word choice, but this is more effective)! Should she decide to "go after" another dog she'll have to deal with the consequences. The wise choice would be to just sit there, ignore the other dog and behave for mommy. What's in it for the dog? Absolutely no severe punishment and all the rewards she loves
In protection sports, an important thing to teach is how to handle and work under "pressure". In other words, teaching a dog to deal with stress. It's vital, especially for those who want to be competitive and do high level trials (i.e. the World Championships).
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By the way Brad , to promote confidence both in weak dogs and as reinforcements for other dogs in protection...we'll have several different people or just the decoy (depending on the dog) "run away scared"/"move away"/"back off" (in other words relieve pressure) at the slightest bark. In all dogs, we teach them that THEY CONTROL the decoy's movement with their bark
I think we should all come over and practice "running away" from Luytiy! It actually sounds like fun, lol.
*** [Is there a preview before post option? I'm always editing my posts for silly typos and such, lol...ah well] ***
The confident dog you describe is Reilly exactly. Every example you made. Perhaps with her as my first, I expect too much of my second.
:edited to more appropriately absorb Brad's enthusiasm, not get reactive to it:
This is what I have been conflicted about: I think Corina's example is providing the dog a very clear choice. one option is BAD, one option is very good! That's clarity, a YES and a NO (not a YES and a "I have no particular approval of that behavior") and going after other dogs is serious, so more than ever we need to be clear. But I have been steeping in all this positive only stuff, counter conditioning, etc. and now that I see that the lunge/bark thing is self-satisfying, I can only conclude that my rewards were nice but lunging is satisfying too, so there was no obvious clear choice and the behavior persists. Only once I started using the prong collar have I seen results more like what I hoped for, but I felt somewhat guilty. But reading Corina's words, I now wonder if I can feel better because -a) he doesnt mind wearing the prong b) I dont have to pull it, his foundation behaviors of check ins and loose leash walking are strong, so it only activates when he lunges into it c ) the clear instruction is MORE kind than wishy washiness and watching him surge over and over again. Is that right?
I get all bent out of shape by reading (too much) books that say stuff like "If you have to use one of these collars you have no place owning a dog" and "these cruel devices." but I am not using it to make my dog look tough, or because I get angry at him and want to punish/hurt him: three years of "have a treat instead" have made it abundantly clear to him that he has options and one option is tasty! Three years of loose leash walking and reinforcing auto check in have laid a foundation that he truly knows what the choices are but I *think* that only recently, with the prong, has he been able to perceive "Don't do THAT" as well as "YES! DO this." I think the fact that he knows the best choice option so well already makes it fair to let him feel the prong, because its not punishment in the absence of a YES. He knows the YES, if he didnt know what TO do, then punishing would be terribly unfair.
Using the prong in this way seems fair: I am not yelling at him, looming over him, kicking, poking, rolling, scruffing, shaking, pinning him or personally scaring him, the lunging just plain doesnt feel good anymore, and he controls whether to lunge or stick with me and my chicken. So I hope I am not a monster for going prong, but if it works to keep him choosing the good stuff, then I *think* I did better by him? We walked yesterday with treats and prong and I was so proud of him: we met strangers, we stayed and talked with two women at the corner while the lhasas (that usually set him huffing and puffing, and eventually out of his thinking brain) barked on and on and he looked toward them and studied the situation but did not even growl, he just looked & sniffed around. In fact he lay down on one hip after a few minutes. He went back and forth between visiting the new person and considering the cursing lhasas and doing what I taught him: to sit by my side for treats. He remained operational, if not perfectly Reilly-level relaxed. Not hind-brain crazy. On the way home, he heard barks and chose me and chicken, and then he SAW the barking spinning dog and still stayed calm and WITH me.
I couldn't do it with clicks & treats, so maybe I am not a good trainer, but I am tired of dicking around and self handicapping and him suffering with this reactivity, or gameness or whatever it is. We have only used the prong for a very short time but I think the clarity outweighs the prongyness. and I dont think it destroys his relationship with me, because Mama is still calm (years of practice!) and encouraging and giving chicken.
Some of you know much much more than me about drive, aggression and Sage-y kinds of dogs, so I seriously crave your - well, really "approval," but will settle for kind correction and information.
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In regard to basic obedience it would not be my first option for starting training but certainly it is there as a tool in circumstances when other methods are not working for reactive animals. My main mantra to those in training is to "use the most cooperative methods first" before moving on to harsher tactics and see a professional to make sure you are using the "tools" (collar, leash, commands etc) correctly and to develop some skill sets to coordinate activities.
I see far too many self proclaimed experts resort to the most severe methods and products at the beginning of their journey, when their "know how" is limited and their patience is thin. Particularly I worry about harsher methods since it provides some with a sort of perverse satisfaction that they are able to punish and control when most are confusing and escalating their situations more.
My point to others out there, always learn to use the tools and methods correctly so that you gain the greatest benefits and reduce the risks.
Advice here freely flows but it should be backed by a qualified trainer that can help with hands on. What you see on a video clip or gain in the info provided may not always be complete enough to ensure adequate solutions to a problem or full understanding in of a particular situation. Be wise in application of tools and methods of training.
Snf
Humans use positive reinforcement all the time, too. The issue of women using sex as a reward for their husbands was brought up. It's the same for most social/family situations, really. The act of being angry at or nice to someone are negative and positive reinforcements for behaviour. If someone is behaving undesirably, you give them negative reinforcement. Either you're mad at them, or you just avoid/ignore them, which is small scale social isolation. It happens at work, it happens between friends, at school, at the gas station between strangers, and between married couples. Even if it's not on purpose, if your spouse was supposed to do something and they didn't, you're going to be annoyed and not feel like having sex with them.
As for dogs humping, well, personally I find it annoying when they're humping me or another person. Rakka occasionally tries to hump Isaac and she always knocks him over and he cries, and it's a big fuss. Tojo and Skella like to hump each other - especially when Skella's in heat, it's like they're on their honeymoon or something, lol. I don't care about that. They seem to be having a good time, so whatever. It's hard for me to imagine using sex drive in a dog for something constructive, just because it's not as direct as using prey drive for hunting, for instance. I can't really think of any humping-related activities that would be all that useful. I mean, we do routinely spay and neuter our dogs. I would also think it'd be a little trickier to really apply the reward because it's something the dog does to you, so it's not like a treat where you give the dog a treat. You'd have to have a dog that wanted to hump all the time to be able to use it.
As for me, I don't like it when dogs hump me. It's annoying.
I think you're doing the right thing
We gave a fair try to both the GL and then the Halti, and he tolerated the Halti better, but I didn't like the way his head moves if he surges with a headcollar on, It looks like he'll break his neck. The directions for activating the headcollars have you pull forward and up to constrict the loop. In a surge, Sage would buck like a swordfish and whip his head around. His discomfort and stress with halters was clear.
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I appreciate the discussion - its a lot to think about the whole thread through- and I thank everyone for support of Sage and I and for teasing out the variety of angles we all found on the issue of non-traditional choices of drive to train with. It was a lively one!
Chrystal, I think you are doing a great job with Sage. I know I always say this, but I do not fault you for using a prong collar at all. I would do the same after exhausting all other options. I'm glad to hear that Sage and you had a great walk!