Ambivalent Feelings About Mame Shiba
I wanted to understand a little further on the thoughts of those of you in the forum about mame shiba. Researching about mame shiba, is what helped me find this forum and I read through the four or so discussions about them but still had some questions. I understand that many breeders are picking runts of the litter and breeding them to other runts, producing smaller shibas, and charging extra for them as they are somewhat a novelty. I agree, that this is wholly irresponsible of breeders who choose to do this.
However, what about breeders who are actually trying to produce very healthy "mame?" We have met with a breeder who is safely trying to breed healthy "toy shibas" and is very committed to having the toy shiba recognized by the AKC. We saw his mame shiba's and they were beautiful and proportional, not stunted looking. Other dog breeds come in different size ranges such as the Poodle; standard, miniature, and toy, all recognized by the AKC. Poodles were never bred with other breeds to obtain their different sizes, they were just bred through human selection.
I am not saying that I am for breeding mame shiba, but I do want to know your opinions about what you would say to this type of breeder? And why, people are opposed if there are breeders who are committed to breeding toy shiba's with health and safety in mind.
-Rachelle
However, what about breeders who are actually trying to produce very healthy "mame?" We have met with a breeder who is safely trying to breed healthy "toy shibas" and is very committed to having the toy shiba recognized by the AKC. We saw his mame shiba's and they were beautiful and proportional, not stunted looking. Other dog breeds come in different size ranges such as the Poodle; standard, miniature, and toy, all recognized by the AKC. Poodles were never bred with other breeds to obtain their different sizes, they were just bred through human selection.
I am not saying that I am for breeding mame shiba, but I do want to know your opinions about what you would say to this type of breeder? And why, people are opposed if there are breeders who are committed to breeding toy shiba's with health and safety in mind.
-Rachelle
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Comments
Mame is being pushed here in JP to get dogs to the appropriate cuteness level to make them easy to sell and own for apartment/shoebox dwellers in over-rated cities. When you live in a 300 foot human filing cabinet and your living space is roughly the size of many American childrens bedrooms....you need things as rediculously as compact as you can get them...this includes your pets.
JP has even WORSE breeding and selling guidlines than pet stores I remember in the states. I mean...they are selling out and out mutts as designer dogs. I saw an Akita puppy...that except for his size and muzzle....was anything but. They labeled him...a long-haired Akita and priced him at 1300usd due to his "rarity".
So yes, like most things that others find offensive in their homelands....there are places in the world doing a far better job of being offensive than you think your people are. Don't get me started on the Japanese and < edited by admins, please stay on topic >.
Truly, though, if all dog breeds originally had a function - a purpose - what then is that of a mame shiba?
I understand they are popular in places like Japan because space is limited and cute sells. Is there another reason?
I guess on the flip side, you can question why some breeders breed larger shibas. My current foster is a solid 29lbs with room to fill in. He is a TANK! Compared to the other male shibas I've been around - he's definitely built much more solid and rugged than most.
There are shibas on these forums that are over 30lbs, too. Their breeders had to know that was possible, and they still bred the pair that produced the larger shiba. Why?
People get up in arms about cream shibas as well. In my personal opinion, having a cream shiba that could make the hardest heart melt and still find time to tree squirrels, I do not understand the crap reasons of "disqualification" that surrounds the color per the AKC. But why?
Just like those who are adamant about what makes an American Akita different from a Japanese Akita (type) and why they all can't be called Great Japanese Dogs or something uniting, and why "tweenies" make people so upset..
I find, in the breeding world, the why's are much less black and white (only looking for profit, only looking to keep the standard, only looking to keep a working drive) but much more gray (possibly considering profit, maybe keeping to the standard, sort of wanting a working drive, etc..)
I think my point is that you will be hard pressed to find two people that agree. Whether they are dog owners, breeders, rescuers, handlers... The opinions, reasons, and answers to the "why"s are so blurred and differ according to who you ask.
From the rescue stand point, and a pet owner stand point, as I am both : any variation in a breed that can misconstrued as 'rare' or 'novelty' will ultimately harm a breed's integrity and result in many more unwanted purebreds bought on impulse is BAD NEWS. Whoever wrote those lovely standards way back when were probably looking at an example of the breed you will be hard pressed to find today. Most breeders forfeit health and sound temperament to achieve the perfect match to a standard. Others do not care about appearance as much as they do health and temperament. But, to each their own, really.
If you find YOU have a reason in which a mame shiba would fit, then by all means seek out a breeder who is doing it for the right reasons and not just for the novelty. But I think the "why" question needs to be answered fully before creating these off shoots of the original breed intention/purpose beyond the fulfillment of rare/novelty.
In regard to stature of dogs….In study by genetics and biologists it has been found that there is a particular size all dogs end up attaining when they are left to develop into a natural state without human intervention. Canines would all level out genetically and revert to be around medium size, say 19 to 22 inches and 28 to 38 lbs, much like pariah dogs of today that fit a particular ecological niche. Mother nature does know best....although humans seem to want to monkey with it and push it in the opposite direction in the last act of defiance.
Here are a few links in regard to pariah dogs.
http://caninebreeds.bulldoginformation.com/primitive-pariah-dogs.html
http://villagedogs.canmap.org/
http://beak3chimps.blogspot.com/
I am not looking to purchase a mame at all, we met a mame breeder while we were looking for our shiba pup a few months ago. My husband and I are still very new to the nihonken game, I opened a discussion to further learn and understand more, so please pardon my ignorance on the subject.
tsukitsune
"Truly, though, if all dog breeds originally had a function - a purpose - what then is that of a mame shiba?
I understand they are popular in places like Japan because space is limited and cute sells. Is there another reason?"
Is this why Jomon-type Shiba are acceptable, but mame are not? There are people who are breeding the Shiba Inu's to resemble their ancestors, wouldn't this be mainly for aesthetic purposes? Please correct me if I am wrong, however aren't Shiba's directly descended from the Jomon dog? Shiba's are perhaps just a more refined version of the Jomon that the Japanese have artificially selected?
Here is a side by side comparison of the recreated Shiba Jomon dog, and the original Jomon.
lindsayt
"I don't care for the idea of "toying" any breed and I do believe it does degrade the health overall even if that isn't what the breeder intended...If people say they really love the breed, don't change it, love it for what it is and buy a Yorkie."
In our area I see a lot of klee kai, or mini huskies. People go crazy for them, and I don't see any agenda that anyone has against them. Klee kai breeders are adamant that their dogs are not "designer dogs" though, in order to get their size and coloring they are inevitably just a blend of husky and american eskimos. But why is it that mame's are so looked down upon? Is it because they are using one breed to scale down the size? Its already been shown that using one breed to "toy down" a dog can often be safer than having a bigger version of the breed. Standard size poodles have many more health concerns versus a miniature poodle who's leading cause of death is old age not disease. While poodles are a poor example, because the size difference between a standard and a miniature isn't really fair, generally speaking small dogs live longer than big dogs. I just wanted to use them because they are hunting dogs, and they are just a more obvious example that people can recognize.
[I apologize in advance if I sound like I am attacking anyone in the forum! This is not my goal at all, being an english major sometimes... makes my words sound harsh when I don't mean it that way at all!]
While I don't know about the future of small Shiba, I will say that I am personally not adverse if there was a true movement to create a breed out of it. And I don't mean a money-making endeavor of a breeder who's just breeding a small Shiba for personal enrichment. I mean a real, sustained movement with dedication towards an actual future and consideration for health. There is absolutely nothing wrong IMHO with wanting to create "just" a companion animal. It should be noted that dog breeds all start with a "purpose", but this purpose is not always working. Companionship is a wholly legitimate raison d'etre.. it's just that, like Jen (tsukitsune) said, I have not yet met a person breeding "mame" Shiba to be doing it for the right reasons, or going about it in an ethical way. You don't create a breed by putting together dogs, making puppies, and selling them for absurd amounts of money.
"In our area I see a lot of klee kai, or mini huskies. People go crazy for them, and I don't see any agenda that anyone has against them. Klee kai breeders are adamant that their dogs are not "designer dogs" though.."
Having a Klee Kai, I've heard quite a few snipes here and there. But that's okay. People do have agendas against them.. mostly those in the Siberian Husky "world".. since they feel like we're "messing" with 'their dogs'. That being said, the AKK was 'under construction' for more than 10 years before they were available to the public. Spurlin, the original breeder, kept immaculate records and upon first submission to the UKC, was accepted in 1996.. She didn't just throw together a husky and an AED, sell them for tons of money, and call it a day - otherwise byb's would have been able to create the same. .. those're just a few reasons... there's an obvious consideration/foresight for future sustainability and health. Furthermore, the dogs are priced at a reasonable rate - on par or less than Shiba breeders I've spoken with, and even when both have had relatively the same amount of finished dogs in their pedigree and appropriate screened for LP, CERF, etc, and in the case of AKKs, Factor VII deficiency. Just my humble opinion.. I don't like to refer to them as "Miniature Huskies" because they are not. They are only distantly related to huskies, much in the same way that a Miniature Pinscher is not a "Miniature Doberman". Temperamentally, they are very different and even by conformation, there are quite different, size not withstanding.
As for the "toying" of dogs - honestly I don't mind if it's 'done right'. Even Maltese or Yorkies are toy'd from other dogs originally.. we just don't have the historic records.
---It tough to determine if the longevity is due to the fact that human intervention is better for small dogs because they are more likely to be in a urban home and better care is provided or that the genetics makes them live longer. Really I think the more self sufficient the dog appears the more negligence is heaped on them thus shortening their lifespan. Also the regular sized dog probably is used for a different purpose so they are subject to exposure that presents more of life's accidents as well.
In general smaller people live longer than larger ones but overly small for example dwarfism that induces health concerns such chondroplasia requires extra attentiveness medically etc to assure quality of life and that is exactly where the size and health seem to not meet at a smooth line when it comes to breeding very small dogs.
Snf
If it makes you feel better, I am against that breed and see them as 100%, without a doubt, a designer breed - and a poorly created and bred one at that. The Nat Geo show that trashed the Caucasian Mountain Dog also did a spot on the creators of that breed - take a look at it, 100% for-profit. End of story.
Your point about Jomon Shiba is a good one. I think, tho I may be wrong, they are selecting that breed for a higher drive tho - to perform hunting and tracking roles... but, your point is still a valid one.
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If it was once for profit, I don't see it as such currently. I've only been involved as of 2 years ago, so I don't know.. but when a breed has followers/breeders that compete it in weight pull, conformation, agility, as well as screens for the valid diseases, then I can personally not find what it is that makes it "for profit" currently.
ETA: So I did a search on google on National Geography and Klee Kai, then NatGeo and Klee Kai, and I came back to one of the threads on this forum! Well, I suppose if they have rat'y faces to you.. :T ... but I still couldn't find that show, lol.
I have to wonder whether some of these breeds being created now (i.e. puggle, labradoodle, maltie-poo, tamaskan, Alaskan Klee-Kai) have even bothered to explore whether one of those hundreds of other dog breeds would be close enough to meeting the criteria they originally started with to create their breed in the first place.
Jesse
The name of the documentary was "Designer Dogs", it was on National Geographic and it had the segment in it on the Caucasian Mountain Dog.
In the show, they interviewed the creator of the Klee Kai, and they showed a bomb sniffing dog that was produced from the Jackal. I can't find a clip of it either, but I can find a million links to the CO part of the show.
Maybe I am making it up, or crazy. LOL
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I didn't mean to speak of the klee kai negatively, I was just trying to point out that they were generally warmly accepted, I apologize if I caused offense.
staticnfuzz- I think the health concern over the mame shiba is definitely valid on those terms, I would hate to see a shiba suffer physical problems just because it it was bred too small.
I also missed the part about using them for weight pull, really? Why? How much do they pull, and what?
The CO video you saw is the part from the video I was talking about, they used the CO as an example of a breed that was the opposite of a "Designer Breed" and they depicted the CO terribly. I agree, if they are willing to spin the CO like that, then I am sure they did the same for the rest of the show (including the AKK).
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As per United Kennel Club weight pulling event - Sled, wheels or rail. One I know of uses at least the rail pull, (weighted at 10x the dog's weight and must be a continuous pull - 16 feet in 60 seconds), UWP titled (completed at least 3 legs in 3 events) in 2009.. little dog did 180 and 240 lb pulls. Why? Cause AKKs still do have a pulling instinct, I guess!
As for when to stop - I think even good breeders of the smallest breed in the world - Chihuahuas - strive for dogs bigger than 3 lbs. 3 lbs at full adult weight is really the absolute minimum.
IMHO, no matter how you try to go about it "healthily" dogs are just not MEANT to be that small and no matter what you will have problems. I once spoke to a very reputable pom breeder & the first thing she told me was all the trachea problems the breed ALREADY has from being small, so then, there is NO NEED to go smaller.
If your home is too small for a dog, & you really want a dog, change your living conditions to fit the dog, not the dog to fit your living conditions.~
I'm not advocating for the breeding of mame Shiba, as I don't really have an opinion one way or the other if its done right. Would a small Shiba 'breed' change from a regular Shiba besides appearance? Probably. Is a miniature schnauzer exactly the same as a standard schnauzer besides the size difference? ABSOLUTELY not. I think it's totally subjective to say that breeding for companionship is somehow unworthy when there are other dogs in the shelter or other breeds that exist already. Why don't breeders of other companion breeds think the same way? Just because the dogs they're working with are established somehow gives them that right? So there are enough 'companion' bred animals. There are also enough/tons of working breed animals too. Saying "just get any of the ones from the shelter" would also apply to most anybody looking for a dog. Hunting? Well get a pack of beagles or any number of hounds. Not that type of hunting? Well get a wolfhound. Or get a KBD. Just like how not all breeds are suitable for hunting, not all breeds really are suitable as the traditional 'companion' group - difficult temperament, difficult size, etc.
Throughout all of history breeds are continually being established.. from the Tosa, to the GSD to the Doberman. So for those that would not like to see new breeds created, one should keep in mind for example, that the GSD and Dobe were purpose-created suitable for the day and age they were conceived. So were dogs like the Coton de Tulear, the Pekingese (which is probably as old, if not older, than many of the Japanese spitze), Tibetan Terrier, etc. Are these dogs somehow "lesser" in purpose?
If companion animals are suitable for our day and age, so be it.
I realize that this is a Japanese-spitze-breed-centric board, but over the years I've become much more fluid in my thinking about breeds, and rigidity. Once, I was a huge advocate of keeping things just the way the were, or was, but...I just tend to try not to think in very set terms anymore... I hope nobody thinks that I'm saying that I'm advocating for breeding cross-breeds willy nilly, or for miniaturizing or making bigger any and all dogs. I just try to think of it as.. domesticated dog breeds today are reliant on human wants for survival.. I'm sure throughout history dog breeds have gone extinct when they fell out of favor/use/purpose, like the original Spaniels owned by King Charles.. NOT the current day Cav. King Charles Spaniel. But yet more are established throughout time based on what people of the time want and I think that we'd be better off looking at the 'big picture' rather than try to be a group of people somehow fixated on what 'was'.
If you want a quiet, small, cute housedog, than the shiba inu as it was meant to be probably isn't what you are looking for! I hope the breed finds it way back in the future... why mess with a really good thing.
What is the real purpose of having such a small shiba?
I find that smaller is:
-harder to find
-easier to sit on and squish
-more breakable
-and can more easily get in and out of places with out you wanting them to
At least there isn't a major designer dog (that I know of) consisting a shiba mixed to make it smaller. Imagine shibaChis running around