How many black tipped hairs make a sesame?!

JiroGoJiroGo
edited September 2009 in Akita (秋田犬)
Just wondering if anyone knows what makes a dog a sesame? Most red Akita Inu I've met have had a few black tipped hairs, I have also seen a few sesames at shows, but I am not sure whether Ayame is going to be considered a sesame or a red.

She has a diamond shape of black tipped hairs across her shoulders and also on her tail, is it enough to be considered sesame or is she a red with a few extra black tipped hairs?!

It doesn't show too well in photos, it's more noticable in RL but here's what I mean...

Photobucket
Photobucket

Comments

  • lindsaytlindsayt
    edited November -1
    I thought with Shiba at least, which would fall under some of the same general color descriptions with NIPPO for a Japanese dog that an Akita might, that more than 50% (I thought that was it, maybe it's more between 25-50) of black tipped hairs evenly distributed on the body NOT in a saddle pattern or isolated to one area would constitue a sesame. A sprinkling of hairs on the back and tail are allowable, but the most desirable is the clear red with no black hairs. Even Ike has maybe 10 that I can locate on the inside curve of his tail. I think if you know a little about the parents, it might be more helpful in finding out if they could have even thrown a sesame pup.
  • JiroGoJiroGo
    edited November -1
    That's helpful, thank you. No there is no sesame in the bloodline, so she must be a red.

    I saw a dog last year that was shown as a sesame with a very clear saddle pattern and no black hairs anywhere else, so maybe he was a red too!
  • TengaiTengai
    edited November -1
    Hi
    A "correct" sesame is very rare. You should she an even spacing of black throughout the coat. Most seen at shows are not correct. I would guess from the picture that your dog is genetically a sesame, but would be considered a "dirty" red by some breeders. When I say genetic sesame, that means she carries the gene that makes her a sesame, she could produce sesame's or even black/tans if bred to a sesame or black/tan. For some reason, some genetic sesame look to be true sesame's others look clear red, some can be dirty reds, but all will produce black/tans or sesame's if bred to them. Even though both your dogs parents were reds there could be a black/tan or sesame as a grandparent or great grand parent, or even further back, which is where the coloring came from.

    How old is the dog in the photo? Some get more black as they get older.
    Phil
  • miss_mallinsonmiss_mallinson
    edited November -1
    Don't have anything to offer as I have no knowledge of what makes a sesame dog but I thought I'd pipe up with how absolutely beautiful a colour it is! Regardless of what it's classed as, I'm in love :) beautiful.
  • JiroGoJiroGo
    edited November -1
    Thanks, I've spoken to her breeder who believes her colour will fade to a deep red. Her dad's colour is absolutely stunning, he's not in the UK anymore but I had the pleasure of meeting him last year and he was really gorgeous, so I'm hoping Ame's coat goes the same way.

    Thank you very much Miss Mallinson, I agree it's very eye catching! :)
  • MnVMnV
    edited November -1
    How is Ayame's coat now?

    Our Aki started to develop those black tip patterns, both saddle and diamond back patterns. See video



    We were just wondering whether it will go away or she will end up having what looks like GSD marking on her back.
  • akitariseakitarise
    edited December 2009
    Is this a extreme sesame color?
    http://www.akita.nl/hond.php?id=10&nk=1

    actually that akita in the link ,Natsumi Yumenoshima No Go, has both parents registered with AKIHO.

    father
    Seiryuu Go Ryuuhou Yamagami Akiho 97-3815
    http://www.akita.nl/hond.php?id=3

    mother
    Yachigusa Go Toyama Kensow Akiho 00-144
    http://www.akita.nl/hond.php?id=27
  • *JackBurton**JackBurton*
    edited November -1
    Yeah that is sesame - looking at the parents I noticed that neither parent is Akiho registered but some of the grandparents were Akiho registered. That would explain where the sesame snuck into the genetic pool.

    MnV - i am willing to be the black tips will go away at one point. Kaeda had similar hair patterns a few months ago. They were grey and not dark but you get the point.
  • akitariseakitarise
    edited December 2009
    @jackburton out of curiosity why did you write in this thread ,http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5120&page=1#Item_14, that if sesame appears in a japanese akita that 9 times out 10 it means that the one of the parents is not a full japanese akita? I understand its a rare color but its accepted in both the AKIHO and FCI standards so I don't understand why it would make a difference. Also what combination in the JA coat colors is likely to produce a sesame? or it certain bloodlines that carry the sesame genes? I am also interested in hearing from other JA owners/breeders on their opinion concerning the sesame color.
  • *JackBurton**JackBurton*
    edited November -1
    Well first off I stand corrected on the Akiho - I swear when I made that post that I did not notice an akiho number but I could have missed it.

    In the JKC (pink) Akita book there is a reference to how fast pinto, sesame, and one other color sort of disappeared as the restoration of the breed progressed. Also (as much as I do not like using this for reference) under the Akiho meeting notes @ northlandakitas: They mentioned that dropping Goma was on the table but was premature at the time. So I feel that sesame is a color of the past with regards to the JA and other than a few reds with some black tips, we will not see sesame like we do in the vintage akita photos.

    Hopefully that makes sense :)
  • MnVMnV
    edited November -1
    Hmm, Aki is 5 months old now. She has the black tip for about 2 months now. Doesn't seem like it's going away.
  • *JackBurton**JackBurton*
    edited November -1
    This has been a topic between Ben and I for a few days now. It is not uncommon for there to be some black tips, at the tail for the most part. As the Akita gets older Ie 1 year etc etc then that is where you should see those tips start to fade away. Another thing that came up is the definition of sesame - if we look at the shiba you come up with this one:

    Sesame (black-tipped hairs on a rich red background) with urajiro. Tipping is light and even on the body and head with no concentration of black in any area. Sesame areas appear at least one-half red. Sesame may end in a widow's peak on the forehead, leaving the bridge and sides of the muzzle red. (AKC-Shiba)

    We should be able to the JA as well and should note the tips are: "light and even on the body and head with no concentration of black in any area." So in your case and in the case of the one from akita.nl there is a concentration of black tips.

    At this point I expect to find a Sesame Japnese Akita someday- Most likely in a field next to a unicorn, santa, and the easter bunny. :)
  • akitariseakitarise
    edited December 2009
    that doesnt make sense tho. How would you define a akita like the one i posted? It has a clear black saddle and is registered AKIHO dog. While i think its a rare color its far from being gone in the bloodline, There is also another thread that a member posted which has a akita with a black stripe down its back. here it is
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4716&page=1#Item_48
    the pic of akita I'm talking about is near the bottom of the thread.
  • *JackBurton**JackBurton*
    edited November -1
    Makes perfect sense - the key words tipping is light and even. So by your response a clear black saddle would neither be light nor even.

    Well unless there is a mistake - the red with the saddle you listed grew up into a rather light red as an adult.
  • *JackBurton**JackBurton*
    edited December 2009
    http://of-shiroi-na-suna.de/Galerie/Natsumi/index.htm

    This is here photo gallery - N.H.S.B. 2405518
    http://of-shiroi-na-suna.de/dogs.html


    The puppy
    image
    image

    The adult
    image
    image
  • akitariseakitarise
    edited December 2009
    i have not found any further photos of that particlular akita as an adult. have you found any? But i kinda see your point. is it due to certain coat colors crossed together? kool! I wonder why it turns black tho? the akita from above still has a noticable black color but it did mostly fade to red. How are sesames viewed in shows?
  • *JackBurton**JackBurton*
    edited November -1
    Yup - she is right above your post. i must have been doing an edit when you posted. It is not like I am saying there is no sesame but as the JA is improved on they have become less and less. Also in one of the articles on northland akitas, the akiho judge mentions that there is a general fading of the coat in bother the US and in Japan.

    So it stands to reason that these are just darker reds.
  • MnVMnV
    edited December 2009
    Thanks for posting those Pics JackBurton.

    Aki's dark marking is very similar to Natsumi. However, she didn't have those darkings as a young puppy at 2 1/2 months old when I first brought her back. It just all of a sudden started showing up.

    I'll take a picture and post it. It's basically like the dark patterns you see in her videos.
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