Cesar Millan
Last night is our first time watching Cesar Millan's Dog Whisperer on Hulu (we don't subscribe to cable TV). We were floored. I have read and heard so many people put Cesar down that I really thought he's just another TV celebrity. I was wrong!
Of all the training videos we have watched, personally I think Cesar IS the best. He's so flexible and creative in dealing with different dog situation.
I think we gonna rent some of his DVDs from Netflix and continue to learn from him.
Just wanna share this because I've never seen any trainer so good with dogs and also produce practical results.
Of all the training videos we have watched, personally I think Cesar IS the best. He's so flexible and creative in dealing with different dog situation.
I think we gonna rent some of his DVDs from Netflix and continue to learn from him.
Just wanna share this because I've never seen any trainer so good with dogs and also produce practical results.
Comments
Once you have done that come back to the show and watch with the sound off. There are some things that are most unfair to some of the dogs. Particularly the forced or muscled dog to dog interactions that put some dogs on the edge, even his own. Items most important for quality interactions/integrations are clearly missed and the tricky parts always seem successful since the worst is being dubbed or sequenced out via out takes.. I would think carefully before forcing the methods you see on an Akita or any spitz for that matter.
He is great for getting the concept of training out to the public. However, the methods are not based on founded science research but rather on personal trial and error.
A few things apply but I suggest a good amount of circumspect in regard to reality T.V.
Take a look at others such Victoria Stillwell, Karen Pryor, Kathy Sdao. There are many clicnics that provide sound advice. Most of all I invite you to following to make comparisons based on a solid foundation rather than trend.
http://www.clickertraining.com/events/index.php?action=ViewEvent&event_id=313
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PS: Let me add this Cesar isn't fully about training really...it is about marketing. If Cesar ventured out to learn some other methods in application it to his current self proclaimed ideology then I think most of the training world would embrace him a little bit more. No trainer should live on an island. However, recently I have seen him giving treats now as a reward, but you would never see him openly admit that as far as modifying his program (LOL).
I would not be the first person on this forum to admit that I tried Cesar's earlier and more forceful methods on my pup when I first got him and, despite my dog being highly shy and reactive, I received quite a lot of fight and distrust from my own dog. This is what Patrice and others warn you about. Cesar has the luxury of doing this for a living and is able to do trial and error for days before he decides to edit a show down to the one that "works", relay it to the owners, and disappear such that the dog would never have to deal with him again.
However, you live with your dog and must form a relationship with your dog. Set yourself up for success and look at the myriad of other non-punitive methods out there. If you look closely, even Cesar has altered his methods over time, which I am thankful Victoria Stillwell's show exists because she brought about "competition" and another point of view to dog training.
Jesse
The episode that we saw on Hulu is Season 8 I think. I'm not impressed by the way he punish the dogs which probably is edited out anyways. I'm impressed by the way he tunes into a new dog in a new environment. It's like he syncs with the dog and start modifying the energy flow of the dog. The body language he displays while interacting with the dogs seems effective too.
Like all of you said, it's TV entertainment and we don't get to see a lot of behind the scene stuff.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/87604/dog-whisperer-buster-jack-and-marley-and-sparky#s-p1-so-i0 This is the episode we watched.
This episode on Puppy Mills has 2 Japanese Akitas in it. We couldn't believe it.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/89602/dog-whisperer-inside-puppy-mills#s-p1-so-i0
I really want to believe there are people like the Dog Whisperer who can instantly click with most dogs and start changing their behaviors for the better.
I watched an episode of Victoria Stillwell too. So, my question is, she is the real deal without those off-screen stuff that produces the results for entertainment purpose?
You guys are better experts in dog behaviors, so you would know better. For a novice like myself, Victoria seems to be a lot of head stuff approaching to modifying the problem aspects of the dog, and Cesar seems to deal with them on a deep instinctual level. Like I say, I really don't know, I'm gullible
The main thing I picked up from Cesar was the "Ah" noise, though I believe he uses "Shh" (Or something similar). We got in a discussion, rather heated really, about this not working but I find that, as opposed to it meaning "NO" it is more like using a whistle in an attempt to get my dogs attention. He responds to "Ah" on the walk quicker than he does "leave it", because he turns to look at me and thus loses interest in whatever he was sniffing or attempting to eat, despite the fact "Ah" has never been reinforced with food.
I really Enjoy Victoria Stillwells show. You should definitely check it out
I'm rambling now, lol.
I also think that the "dominance" training model is a very good way to teach primates, who are very dominance-oriented, how to manage canines, who are social and adapt their hierarchy to the need at hand. I think 9/10 dog-owner relationships benefit if the primate stops spoiling and/or confusing the dog, based on my neighborhood.
Victoria's show is also not 100% about dog training - its also about creating a brand. She introduces a couple of training techniques here and there, but there is a lot of repitition.
Does Victoria have training DVDs? If so, I suspect they'd be more worth your money than Caesar's stuff.
But you know what show I really like, is "Good Dog University." That's an educational show abotu training dogs, not a reality show about a person who trains dogs. It's also firmly rooted in the Classical and Operant modalities.
Superfetch is really fun to watch.
Superfetch is kind of cool, but I kinda don't care for taking "trick training" to such an extreme.
As for Stillwell, she's a crock and a sham (not to offend anyone). She uses techniques (such as having a dog watch another dog on TV to learn behaviors) that aren't real and don't work. Also, there was someone who "came out" awhile back saying that their dog was already perfectly trained and that they auditioned to get on the show and fake bad behavior, etc.
It's great entertainment, but a ton of people take these shows as a "how to" on how to get their dogs to work for them, and it's definitely NOT that.
Would you be able to declare/proove that in a court of law? Not that what you said offends me personally, but unless you know from first hand experience, it's probably wise not to discredit someone publically like that unless you can back it up with facts.
I totally agree the shows should not be taken as literal "how to" guides.
"Victoria utilizes a positive-reinforcement methodology to training, whereas Cesar is loyal to the pack-method and flooding. Cesar ignores the area of training that teaches a dog basic obedience commands and focuses solely on the primal instincts of the animal. When a dog has a psychological issue, he relies on flooding, a technique that essentially forces the animal to be in the situation they fear the most, to prove that the animal is not in any real danger.
On the surface, this sounds very reasonable; the animal learns that the human is not going to allow the dog to be injured. Unfortunately, this technique does not fix the real problem, and runs a high risk of really traumatizing a frightened animal. Imagine, if you will, that you have a severe spider phobia. A therapist practicing flooding would treat you by shutting you in a small room and filling it with thousands of spiders. While you may realize that you aren't going to be seriously harmed, the resulting panic and anxiety caused by this "treatment" may actually compound your fear, rather than alleviating it."
Kyla, that reminds me of the Maury show when they have an episode about guests who fear things. the people talk about what they fear, than Maury brings out that item and those people freak. They run, scream and I think one of them even might have hit a couple of the stage hands. it all looks kind of silly when you aren't the one experiencing it, but to those fearful people it is almost like a life or death situation.
I'm not saying anyone trains better than any other. And Lord knows that I'm no expert on training myself.
However, I was just pointing out that there was an instance (which I can't find via a 2 minute google search, don't have the time to dig for it, but I think it was on an Animal Planet message board) that I read about where someone posted pictures of being filmed for the Stillwell show and they basically gave them a script on what to say and how to act, even though their pet had none of those problems, etc. Kind of an overexaggeration to make it more show friendly. Milan does the same type of thing too. They had my friend's adopted dog, filmed it for the show and decided to scrap it where, even with editting, they couldn't make it look good/entertaining.
I guess "sham" and words like that was a bit harsh and inappropriate. What I meant to say is that these people are entertainers first and formost, and a lot of people tend to overlook that fact when talking about the shows and such.
There are so many conflicting views and ideas that it's taking a lot of time to weed through all of them. We don't want to try a method and permanently leave an unwanted conditioning in our puppy.
Thanks for all the inputs. Looks like it's really up to the individual. We just have to keep on researching and trying different things.
When it is your full time job, you have the ability to be flexible.
When it is you with your pet - it really depends on you and your pet.
It is very important to select a training method that has sound science and humane methods behind it i.e. research that goes across species. Therefore, before applying any method identify some grounded training theories first and how it applies in the context of canines. I strongly recommend researchers and behaviorists such as Karen Pryor, Kathy Sdao, Patricia McConnell Ian Dunbar, Jean Donaldson and Pat Miller. There are more but that is the core I stick with.
Yes there are times when application of more than one type of method is used, but you first have to identify the basic science first. No T.V. show will fully give you that.
On the forum there is a link to books and reading materials I suggest looking into it and scrap the T.V. shows and various actor personalities until the core is understood in regard to behavior.
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3851&page=1#Item_16
Good luck and happy reading.
Snf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T48-4VFJS1D-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=87b07a29845364ffba90cf48443c553b
You need to pay to read the full version (Elsevier publication I think so...).
Here's a link to an article discussing the original study (which I believe was published in Applied Animal Behavior Science).
http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/current/research/030509.html
His protocol steps are quite similar to many who clicker train, in fact steps 3 and 4 are what is switched in operant conditioning.
I have only read a few things in passing but it appears one has to skim through his personal psychobabble to get to the heart of the methods. The methods do not seem bad but his descriptors are just as “out there” as some of the others like Cesar. Get to the point man, is all I am saying.
Sometime ago I watched a video or what appeared to be an interview about his methods and the “whys” in training with Trisha Selbach.. It turns out this is one of his clients and her dog was trained by Behan. So it does not really validate anything in my mind, it appears more promotion than anything. Really I’d like to see some high end trainers from different or similar camps step up and discuss with him.
In all fairness I will have to get a personal copy of his book and pick through it to see what references he lists and where he collaborates. So far am not overly impressed. Again no trainer should remain on an island but no trainer should ride on the coat tails of their parents in establishing their methods either. In fact it should be all the more important to meet and work with others in the field to develop and further ones own concepts. It appears that Shepherds are his major focus as well. That breed is a whole other ball game when it comes to working and showing etc etc.
We shall see….At this point I remain reserved in terms of full buy-in until I see more.
I don’t think one should start off with this guy as an initial reading reference if you are just beginning to investigate training methodologies since it can be too confusing pin down the finer points needed for the Spitzies......at least based on what I am seeing from interviews, the written blogs and videos.
Snf
Is there one book, DVD, or training course that you can whole-hearted recommend as a full buy for Akitas?
Would love to hear your opinion.
first level: Just for starters if you have never had a dog before or you are on your first Nihon Ken.
Ian Dunbar's - "Before and After getting your puppy".
Betty Fisher and Suzanne Delzio's - "So your dog's not Lassie: Tips and training for difficult dogs and independent breeds".
Garrett, Susan. Crate Games for Self control. (If you have a mellow dog this may not be of issue.)
Which should lead you into the next....
Second level to back up the puppy k classes:
-McConnell, Patricia. How to be the Leader of the Pack...and Have your Dog Love You for it!
-Miller, Pat. The Power of Positive Training or
-Miller, Pat. Positive Perspectives 2.
-Donaldson, Jean. DVD Perfect Paws in 5 Day
And finally this one because you really need to be able to read body language to make training effective.
(I hope they have cleaned up the video once in DVD, the original had a lot of snow in it.)
Rugaas, Turid. On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals.
(Also has DVD - Calming Signals: What your Dog Tells you)
With all of this you have to go in the direction that most meets your needs in regard to your own dog and your own skill set.... where you want to go with goals and objectives. etc.
I am sure there a few other I have not read that maybe someone here can point to that may be more all inclusive for just starting out with training.
Good luck : )
Snf
PS: If you have "borders books" or similar bookstore you can have them bring in the order and you can look at the book first hand in the store before buying. If you don't like it just hand it back. I know Ian Dunbar's book is usually at most local bookstores. The local libraries may have some things too, if you can look it up on line in your system if you are in the U.S.
We'll get Ian Dunbar's book first then. We got his video Sirius Puppy Training that we used to teach Aki to Sit and Down.
"And finally this one because you really need to be able to read body language to make training effective.
(I hope they have cleaned up the video once in DVD, the original had a lot of snow in it.)"
Which DVD are you talking about, Patrice?
Depends on the dog, too, and the dog/owner chemistry. I met someone once who was bragging that he never actually tried to train his dog and his dog just somehow figured out how he was supposed to act and which commands meant what. All I can say is that the dog must be a master code-decipherer, because that is pretty freaking lucky.
With Cesar, I get the impression that he hasn't studied dog training theory or behaviour, but his natural intuition and confident presence makes up for the lack of knowledge. I think he does a lot of things wrong, but he seems to just want to do things his own way and not really learn from others.
--Heidi : I completely agree with you. There is more than one way to do things depending on your skill set. However, I will say it is good to get a sound foundation on what is what first and learn why something works without a lot of descriptive ethereal conjecture. You see both Behan and Milan do this which is rather wacky (not that they are the same type of trainers in any sense of the word).
I would also agree that Cesar himself can work through some things but he does a horrible job of explaining "WHY" and "HOW". With the explanations, you often see the blank stares by the owners and to get with the program they just mimic what he does......that isn't the best solution to resolving most things if there is a problem.
Also at times for Cesar there is lack of consideration in regard to better solutions that would reduce some stress in the dogs. He muscles through it but it is obvious he is blind to some other maybe better options. It is so true, context is everything....One really has to think about what's going on in context to each dog, environment, owner etc. and the bottom line is there aren't any pat answers for deeper behavioral problems.
Ok I have voiced enough of my opinions. There are great resources out there for the basics, so go forth and conquer (LOL). MnV Let us know how it goes once you have your pup(s) etc.
Snf
So exactly what is opposite?.... Based on his blogs....his steps 3 and 4 are the only things I see reversed.
Snf