Dog food and protein
We have determined that we are going to switch Hachi to a grain free food, and chose to try Orijen above all others first, if we could get it locally.
The small, hometown pet store that I use for just about everything agreed to order it for me, but then I got an email from her today about making sure I want to begin her on such a high protein food.
She also says I should consider what I will do when she becomes older, and to think about decreasing the protein because of the kidneys in older dogs.
This is exactly what she said:
"If you pick a grain free, pick one that has a protein content in the 25% to 30% range so that kidney health doesn't become a concern over the life span of your dog. Or at least be prepared to switch to one with a lower protein level in the future as the dog becomes older."
I have read several articles on protein levels in foods, particularly grain free foods, and get conflicting views on high protein vs. kidney function.
Is this something I should be concerned about with shibas as smaller dogs and high protein? They are incredibly active dogs, non stop, even Hachi gets the zoomies now. Eventually, I might transition all the shibas onto a grain free, high protein diet if we can find one that agrees with them.
Any thoughts? Or proof on either side of the high protein argument?
The small, hometown pet store that I use for just about everything agreed to order it for me, but then I got an email from her today about making sure I want to begin her on such a high protein food.
She also says I should consider what I will do when she becomes older, and to think about decreasing the protein because of the kidneys in older dogs.
This is exactly what she said:
"If you pick a grain free, pick one that has a protein content in the 25% to 30% range so that kidney health doesn't become a concern over the life span of your dog. Or at least be prepared to switch to one with a lower protein level in the future as the dog becomes older."
I have read several articles on protein levels in foods, particularly grain free foods, and get conflicting views on high protein vs. kidney function.
Is this something I should be concerned about with shibas as smaller dogs and high protein? They are incredibly active dogs, non stop, even Hachi gets the zoomies now. Eventually, I might transition all the shibas onto a grain free, high protein diet if we can find one that agrees with them.
Any thoughts? Or proof on either side of the high protein argument?
Comments
Protein does effect kidney function for some dogs. I would do as some others have and mix or trade out different brands, say in morning or evening and not go overboard. Moderation is a good policy in my book. Jumping from 26% or so to 40% is a bit extreme . Each Shiba is different and some can pork out quickly on too high of a source of protein.
In larger dogs that are growing very quickly too high of protein can cause some animals to have problems with extreme bone growth and ligament aches and pains or even distortion. The school of thought on that is to slow the process a bit with moderation in feeding. Some of this can be genetic and is also based on the phosphorus and calcium ratios as part of rate of absorption of the individual animal. So again it really depends ....so I go back to my thought on moderation as a good way to go.
Snf
Really, I want to just get Hachi onto a grain free to see if thats really her problem, otherwise she is healthy, we had her really checked over, especially for her epilepsy claim, everything looks good. Medically, she is fine besides the eye gooies, gas and some other digestion issues.
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I have read conflicting things in the past as well and of course the vets I have spoken with thus far always point to Hills for correcting/supplementing any animal they feel requires nutritional intervention. (Quite a few still stand by low protein for kidneys on older dogs. Most are not versed in the types of food available.)
I have not bought into the Hills food unless it is an extreme situation with a rescue requiring immediate changes during times medical stress. Most often I have stuck by the thought that every dog is different and weigh considerations on general health, age, medical conditions & work up via blood test etc. done before spay etc. to make an assessment.
Snf
Protein Requirements in Senior Dogs - You Might be Surprised
You can start there and then the WDJ article name is mentioned so you can purchase the article or login and view it if you have a subscription already. Go here for that:
The Whole Dog Journal
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I'll look at the WDJ though....
Thanks
Snf
My research continues.. I think I will end up starting with Wellness Core to ease the protein boost and grain free transition and maybe with more research start rotating.. it just goes against most everything I have learned from people in the rescue realm and veterinarian resources, to go grain free and further more to rotate protein sources.. I'm hesitant to do anything different for the dogs or have to keep switching them, but I want to give them the most optimum choice of diet that I can!
WDJ is a great resource, I don't even mind paying for past articles if I need them. I'm glad I got the subscription! Another great thing I learned from the forum! I love it!!
I have always integrated raw meaty bones and veggies into their diet, but for kibble, I didn't feel educated enough until recently to be able to confidently make the decision to go grain-free or rotate sources.
I did not do as extensive and careful research on the type of oil I put in my car.
What does Jazz's diet consist of?
When we switched Maui and Kaia to RAW we just stopped feeding them kibble and started feeding them RAW meat and veggies... we didn't mix or take it slow, we just changed it one day in the morning. Neither of them got lose stool or anything, it was as if we had changed nothing!
Mind you, these are two dogs that have freaky sensitive stomachs, at the time if we so much of gave Kaia a different treat than normal she would be sick... The abrupt switch to RAW didn't effect her at all. It was amazing.
Also ever since we fed them RAW for a little over a year they have the most solid GI of any of our pups... they never have GI issues now!
I think that says something for feeding RAW.
Anyway, I know this isn't a RAW food thread - I just thought it was mildly realevent since we were on the subject of different feeding / transitioning techniques and all.
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What made you decide to switch them like that?
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LJ - I was thinking about feeding TOTW, but I know that it is made by Diamond and Diamond makes a whole range of foods from grocery quality all the way up to premium. I find myself a little uncertain about the premium foods that come out of their facility just because I don't know how careful they are to put only the highest quality of ingredients as well as human grade care into their better foods, when many of their foods include lower quality ingredients that don't have to be cared for with the same standards as human grade foods. Also Diamond has had two pet food recalls in the past 4 years but neither involved the Taste of the Wild food line. FYI.
Anyway her caretaker was very, very knowledgable about her origins and actually took a year off of work (he's a professor) to train her, and he said it took him that long to house break her!
He feeds her a 100% RAW diet and had amazingly helpful tidbits about the theory behind the diet. He thought it would be completely unnatural to give Lakota a kibble based diet and started her from a 5 week old pup on her raw diet, gradually decreasing the carbohydrate load into low carb high protein and adding probiotics and digestive enzymes and he gives her garlic capsules and raw honey. She was simply amazing to watch. And her running, she was so graceful, didn't miss a beat.
He said that if I was unsure about the shibas diet, to really make sure I knew what I was doing to ensure a 100% complete diet, because not every meal has to be a complete meal, but their total diet should be and he recommended some books and resources, some I already have.
I hope I see them again! Kitsu met his match for running in Lakota! They were running in perfect stride! I wish I brought my camera tothe dog park..
The only problem with protein and older dogs is that most dog foods don't offer HIGH grade protein from proper meat sources. Most choose protein from plant sources and lower grade/grinds of meats. Tasha has a slightly elevated Creatin level, but her BUN count if perfectly normal. She gets 29% protein and is coming up on 9 yrs old. I have both Tasha's and Ronan's diets created by a nutritionist. I make their food daily - homecooked. BTW, dogs cannot digest raw veggies unless you've put them in the blender. Their intestines are shorter than humans and you'll notice that carrots will go right through.
My two cents: higher protein is okay for older dogs as long as it is quality protein from high-grade meats. And my personal opinion is NOT to feed kibble to older dogs because it's so dry - that's the biggest hit on kidneys, lack of water. But, that said, you could add water to the kibble or some canned to make up for the water intake.
I would suggest switching slowly, only because quality grain-free kibble such as Orijen and Evo are higher in fat content, which can not only cause loose stool if the dog isn't used to that much fat content, but can cause pancreatitis in dogs with weakened immune systems. But I do like grain-free for older dogs because grain can irritate arthritis.
There. My two cents :-)
week 1 - 3/4 current & 1/4 new
week 2 - 1/2 & 1/2
week 3 - 1/4 current & 3/4 new
Or do I need to do it slower?
my cousin is a holistic specialist, mostly equine health, she referred me to a canine nutritionist, and I think that will be our next venture, its too hard to come up with a proper diet - there is far to much to know and be aware of - and it seems like a RAW diet, especially with fish, is like a moving target!
For the time being, we're going to begin switching them to grain free very slowly, and I will start blending the veggies - I did see a lot more carotene color in their BMs after giving them a carrot to munch on.. hmm.. and more green when they eat peas or broccoli..
we actually started to add more RAW meats and veg to their normal diet and cut back on the kibble and we are all (humans, too) fasting on Sundays now.
I think we're getting closer to home cooked meals, and I think seeing a nutritionist will be the deciding factor.
I have a good couple months to get this down to a science before I have more mouths to feed!
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http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/SPFish.html
(sorry for the hijack Jen)