He does look incredibly thin in that 3rd photo. :0 He just doesn't have that 'chunkiness' to his body that a normal adult Shiba male would have. His body shape almost reminds me of a Basenji, if his butt wasn't fluffy and he didn't have a Shiba face.
He just looks so incredibly tall and lanky compared to Toby. o___o; - never realized - Heres a photo from my trip, of Toby from the side, for a possible comparison?: He is very close to full grown, and Toby is skinny.
Maybe it is because hes missing fur? If he had that extra Shiba 'poof' to him, then he'd look normal. Or, least I think he would.
In my personal opinion he doesn't look sickly thin to me. I keep Taj that thin and all of the dogs that are in the sports classes I go to look like that. And these dogs live to be old and happy and never have any hip, knee or joint problems throughout their flyball careers. I think the severe thinning of his hair makes him look skinnier than before when it was thicker. Have you weighed him before and after the move? I think that looks like a secondary skin infection from some type of environmental allergy. If you take him to the specialist maybe get a skin test done on him but call the place in advance to see what all types of meds he has to off of before the test. It looks like a yeast infection on the skin or something(yes dogs can get yeast infections on their skin and in their ears). My friend's Boxer gets that discoloration on her white paws and is on antibiotics all the time for secondary infections from environmental allergies.
Although he does seem to have slightly decreased muscle mass but Taj is like that too. She is just naturally a lighter build than say Kohji who is noticably muscular..
He doesn't look sickly. I don't see any ribs showing. I don't think it helps that he's so tall. His height makes him look thinner, I think. His face also looks nice and full.
Well for whatever it's worth.....in the third picture of Maui....he looks like some creams I have seen that have blown their undercoat. All that is left are the little stiff guard hairs. The coat variations are influenced by genetics. Many do look like Basenji's when they don't have the fluff or when wet after a bath. Maui does not have a heavy bone structure to begin with so when he is down to the bare essentials he will look skinny, especially if you compare him to your larger dogs. Bone density is genetic also and that is what it is. I don't think you can beef that up.
As a suggestion I would keep a weight and eating chart for him and see if there is a pattern or correlation to anything else that is going on or season etc.
Hey Brad, I'm sure your vet may checked this out per my story that follows, but then you never know. Our dog Joe had a long-term staph infection on his belly skin when he was quite young (might have even started when he was a lost puppy and stressed/possibly injured or from the bug bites, etc.). I believe it starts with some sort of disruption to the skin, just as it might in humans (we have all heard the stories of staph following a surgery, etc.). I' recall the rash lasted many many months, I believe much longer than a year, possibly two years. In spite of many visits for this rash and a variety of routine and non-routine things our local vet never did diagnose it. Then the smart brother-in-law vet from the West Coast came to visit and diagnosed it right away. We had to give him a course of antibiotics-- but I think it was just a normal ordinary one like Cephalexin (also taken by us humans and not too expensive in the doggie dose). It cleared it up (think he had to take the antibiotic for 3-4 weeks) and he didn't get it back again after that. I don't remember if he had eating issues, etc. But I do recall that he had some diarrhea off and on, etc. so likely there was some internal impact even though it manifested on his skin. Because he was rapidly growing through that time of life and was one of those wonderful blended "mutts" I guess we didn't have a gauge of whether he was underweight.
Anyway it surprises me sometimes the things the vets don't know, but I guess there may be a lot of variation to some of these things depending on the part of the country. For example, my brother-in-law says that the mange (another skin condition not likely to occur in MN. but somewhat prevalent in warmer climates) is very hard to diagnose, and so many vets don't get that one right either. On the other hand, its treatable and so sometimes vets choose to treat for it instead of going through a long and difficult process. Now there are the pros and cons with that approach (antibiotic-resistance should worry us all, too). Anyway, thought I'd share the story about the staph in case it puts you on a track to a diagnosis that hasn't been explored yet.
Transmission or Cause: Discoid lupus erythematosus (DLE) is an autoimmune disease in which the animal’s own antibodies attack normal components of the skin. DLE is a benign variant of systemic lupus and has no systemic involvement. There is strong evidence that sunlight induces and/or exacerbates the disease process.
Affected Animals: DLE affects dogs and cats, but where it is the second most common autoimmune disease in dogs, it is very rare in cats. There appears to be neither a sex nor age predilection in either species. Collies, German shepherds, Shetland sheepdogs, Siberian huskies, Brittany spaniels, and German shorthaired pointers have demonstrated predilection for DLE.
Clinical Signs: Clinical signs of canine DLE include loss of pigmentation where the brown/black color of the nose changes to a slate blue or pink color, redness, and scaling of the nose. The disease can ultimately progress to significant destruction of the tissue, resulting in ulceration and crusting of the nose. Lesions may rarely involve the ear flaps, mouth and area surrounding the eyes. The affected dogs are otherwise healthy. In cats, DLE most commonly affects the ear and face, resulting in redness, scaling, crusting, and hair loss. Aside from the dermatologic lesions, affected dogs and cats are otherwise healthy.
Diagnosis: As this disease can resemble other more serious diseases, including epitheliotropic lymphoma (cutaneous lymphoma), pemphigus, and systemic lupus, it is important to get a definitive diagnosis. Diagnosis is based on a supporting clinical history and biopsy with histopathology. Biopsy of the nose requires sedation or general anesthesia. The nose will be numbed prior to biopsy, and sutures (stitches) will be present where the biopsy was taken.
Treatment: Treatment is variable and often dependent on severity of lesions. In some dogs, sun avoidance alone may be sufficient in controlling the disease. In more affected animals, therapy may include any individual or combination of the following: topical and/or oral steroids, oral doxycycline, an antibiotic with anti-inflammatory and immunomodulatory properties combined with niacinamide, a vitamin B derivative, and tacrolimus, an immunosuppressive topical ointment. Sun avoidance is essential in all affected animals, with applications of sunscreen providing additional protection.
Prognosis: The prognosis of DLE is generally good, as this does not cause systemic illness.
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We started treating Maui for this a few months ago and we have seen good progress in his recovery. I waited to post anything about before we knew for sure if Discoid lupus was the cause.
Thanx everyone for your support and well wishes. )
Yaaaaay! I read this whole thread for the first time, and was almost in tears thinking about how frustrated you and Jen must be. I'm soooo glad there's a happy ending! I certainly know what it's like to have an "undiagnosable" problem. All you want is to find out that it's a medical issue that has a treatment so you can get started already! I'm so so so happy that Maui is improving.
Glad that Maui is on the mend and you know whats going on with him now! Hopefully now that you know for sure, he will be able to be treated completely.
We have been keeping him out of the sun and/or in a roofed kennel when he is outside so he is in the shade. He loves to be outside now, so it's hard to take that from him.
He is not on steroids, he is on Niacinamide and Tetracycline. This issue is common in dogs that live at a higher altitude where the sun is more powerful.
Giving Maui drugs is horrible. When you are giving him his pills (and these pills are large for such a small dog), he will bite down hard if any dog approaches or if he hears a sound. Jen and I used to take turns doing it as it's super painful when he bites your finger. Then one day Jen got bit and she yelled "Ah! Gah! God, you suck Maui! That hurt! You are not a cat!"... duh. That was the answer, treat him like a freaking cat - we got one of those cat pill popper things... No more bloody fingers!!! Sometimes the answer to a problem is just right there, but you don't see it. Live and learn I guess. \
I should note, this diagnosis only cover his skin issues and his nose peeling, it doesn't cover his weight gain issues.
I think we are just going to stop worrying about his weight - he is just gonna be a skinny dog. He never gets too skinny (like emaciated), but he never really gains weight - he stays pretty constant in the 14lb - 16lb range. We work to minimize his stress level as much as possible and get him to play, so that helps him have an appetite.
I'm really glad this all seems to have finally figured itself out :D and, for the record, from my limited exposure to the breed and from the limited view on the pictures I don't think he looks sickly, just a little slimmer than others. I do think part of it is the fur issue though, maybe you'll see an improvement.
Discoid lupus and pemphigus erythematosus are two skin issues found in Jindos. We've run across at least 4 in rescue that look like discoid lupus. Symptom was mostly scabby or bleeding nose or the skin right above the nose. One person used the steroids but then the dog gained belly weight and was taken off it. Tacrolimus, the nose ointment used to prevent organ transplant rejection, was used for two of the dogs, as well as restricting outdoor sun exposure, and this resulted in the nose recovering and becoming normal.
I'm so sorry to hear that this took a year for a diagnosis. Is Maui using the new enclosure you built for shade? And one more question sorry for my ignorance, but did moving to NM cause a flare up or for this condition to get worse?
Comments
He just looks so incredibly tall and lanky compared to Toby. o___o; - never realized -
Heres a photo from my trip, of Toby from the side, for a possible comparison?:
He is very close to full grown, and Toby is skinny.
Maybe it is because hes missing fur? If he had that extra Shiba 'poof' to him, then he'd look normal. Or, least I think he would.
As long as he doesn't look sick... I mean i still want him to gain weight but, it helps to know he doesn't look horribly sick.
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As a suggestion I would keep a weight and eating chart for him and see if there is a pattern or correlation to anything else that is going on or season etc.
It is a tough call .....
Snf
No dermatologist has seen him yet, we biopsied his hair follicle and are waiting the results on that.
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Anyway it surprises me sometimes the things the vets don't know, but I guess there may be a lot of variation to some of these things depending on the part of the country. For example, my brother-in-law says that the mange (another skin condition not likely to occur in MN. but somewhat prevalent in warmer climates) is very hard to diagnose, and so many vets don't get that one right either. On the other hand, its treatable and so sometimes vets choose to treat for it instead of going through a long and difficult process. Now there are the pros and cons with that approach (antibiotic-resistance should worry us all, too). Anyway, thought I'd share the story about the staph in case it puts you on a track to a diagnosis that hasn't been explored yet.
WE FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT!!!
Maui has Discoid lupus.
From: http://www.dermvet.com
Discoid lupus
Also Known As: Cutaneous lupus erythematosus
Transmission or Cause: Discoid lupus erythematosus (DLE) is an autoimmune disease in which the animal’s own antibodies attack normal components of the skin. DLE is a benign variant of systemic lupus and has no systemic involvement. There is strong evidence that sunlight induces and/or exacerbates the disease process.
Affected Animals: DLE affects dogs and cats, but where it is the second most common autoimmune disease in dogs, it is very rare in cats. There appears to be neither a sex nor age predilection in either species. Collies, German shepherds, Shetland sheepdogs, Siberian huskies, Brittany spaniels, and German shorthaired pointers have demonstrated predilection for DLE.
Clinical Signs: Clinical signs of canine DLE include loss of pigmentation where the brown/black color of the nose changes to a slate blue or pink color, redness, and scaling of the nose. The disease can ultimately progress to significant destruction of the tissue, resulting in ulceration and crusting of the nose. Lesions may rarely involve the ear flaps, mouth and area surrounding the eyes. The affected dogs are otherwise healthy. In cats, DLE most commonly affects the ear and face, resulting in redness, scaling, crusting, and hair loss. Aside from the dermatologic lesions, affected dogs and cats are otherwise healthy.
Diagnosis: As this disease can resemble other more serious diseases, including epitheliotropic lymphoma (cutaneous lymphoma), pemphigus, and systemic lupus, it is important to get a definitive diagnosis. Diagnosis is based on a supporting clinical history and biopsy with histopathology. Biopsy of the nose requires sedation or general anesthesia. The nose will be numbed prior to biopsy, and sutures (stitches) will be present where the biopsy was taken.
Treatment: Treatment is variable and often dependent on severity of lesions. In some dogs, sun avoidance alone may be sufficient in controlling the disease. In more affected animals, therapy may include any individual or combination of the following: topical and/or oral steroids, oral doxycycline, an antibiotic with anti-inflammatory and immunomodulatory properties combined with niacinamide, a vitamin B derivative, and tacrolimus, an immunosuppressive topical ointment. Sun avoidance is essential in all affected animals, with applications of sunscreen providing additional protection.
Prognosis: The prognosis of DLE is generally good, as this does not cause systemic illness.
----
We started treating Maui for this a few months ago and we have seen good progress in his recovery. I waited to post anything about before we knew for sure if Discoid lupus was the cause.
Thanx everyone for your support and well wishes.
----
Is he on steroids?
Can sunscreen help?
I've never heard of this before.
I echo Brandon's questions... What treatment process is Maui going through?
He is not on steroids, he is on Niacinamide and Tetracycline. This issue is common in dogs that live at a higher altitude where the sun is more powerful.
Giving Maui drugs is horrible. When you are giving him his pills (and these pills are large for such a small dog), he will bite down hard if any dog approaches or if he hears a sound. Jen and I used to take turns doing it as it's super painful when he bites your finger. Then one day Jen got bit and she yelled "Ah! Gah! God, you suck Maui! That hurt! You are not a cat!"... duh. That was the answer, treat him like a freaking cat - we got one of those cat pill popper things... No more bloody fingers!!! Sometimes the answer to a problem is just right there, but you don't see it. Live and learn I guess.
I should note, this diagnosis only cover his skin issues and his nose peeling, it doesn't cover his weight gain issues.
I think we are just going to stop worrying about his weight - he is just gonna be a skinny dog. He never gets too skinny (like emaciated), but he never really gains weight - he stays pretty constant in the 14lb - 16lb range. We work to minimize his stress level as much as possible and get him to play, so that helps him have an appetite.
Anyway, thanx!
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I had never heard of this either.
He's still very attractive :D
Yes, we think moving here is what made this flare up. The sun here, being at almost 8k feet, is very intense.
Where's the celebratory Maui spam eh? ~
I hope Mr. Maui will be much happier now that you know what to do as treatment for his condition.
You and Jen must be so relieved! <--- well..."sort of"...you know what I mean...