Which nihon ken is for me?

Comments

• okiron

  August 2008 edited November -1

  The only problem I see with the other breeds besides a shiba is..will the apartment allow them? If you could find an apartment that allows dogs they usually have a weight restriction of 25lbs, which would make a shiba ok but the others are shizzle out of luck.
  
  Wow they kept your deposit? Suckage.
• BradA1878

  August 2008 edited November -1

  Hi Osy! Well, I think a Shiba really sounds perfect for you. A Shikoku would love the walks and are pretty mellow inside, but if you didn't keep up with the walks they would start to be a real handful in an apartment. Loa would probably do ok in an apartment, but Ahi would freak - so it may come down to bloodlines w/ the Shikoku.
  
  An Akita would be great too, but if there are that many restrictions on them then I guess you have to pass on them.
  
  I would stay away from a Kai, IMHO. They are kinda wild and would probably not do well in apartment life. Kona is really like a wild animal - but some other Kai owners may feel differently.
  
  As for meeting some Nihon-Ken - you are always welcome to come and visit our pups, tho that would be a long drive. We will be driving to ATL in December and you could meet us if you wanted to drive up to GA... but we may only have Akita with us, so I dunno if that really helps.
  
  Good luck!
  
  ----
• Sangmort

  August 2008 edited November -1

  Thanks so much for the responses guys ~!
  
  Rina, actually most of the apartments I've looked at [ about 4/5 ] will either allow any size dog [ so long as it's not a restricted breed, ie; Akita, Pit, Doberman, etc. ] or 75lbs & under. So I'm actually pretty safe with medium-sized breeds
  
  & yeah...I'm happy I didn't get the pup though. I've been monitoring the breeder's website really closely since then & I'm really disappointed in myself I didn't see the clear-cut signs of a poor breeder before then...I consider the $200 loss my punishment for rushing into things I guess.
  
  Brada - You know though...I really really love Shikoku xD Just because, if anything, they're a slightly larger dog. I'm pretty steady with my walks [ If I'm not walking, I'm roller-blading ] so I think, for the most part, I'd be ok with keeping a walking routine... I definitely understand how important routine is for dogs, this is something I'll think about a little more Maybe, if I decided to go with a Shikoku, I could request the more mellow of the bunch ;p
  
  I didn't think the Kai would be a good fit either. Too much energy & I hear they're real barkers But still, just awesome dogs!
  
  It really is a shame on how many restrictions the akita has down here. It's got almost as bad a rep as a pit, which surprises me as I've never heard an akita attacking anything. [ all the ones I've met were real sweethearts ! ] lol & Thnks for the offer Brad ~
• sujewel

  August 2008 edited November -1

  Didn't Miko's sibling go to FL?
  
  I have Akita, so I can only speak to them and they would do well in an apartment situation. They mellow and only play indoors in small spurts. But with the FL restrictions, they're out for you.
  
  What about Hokka? I don't know much about their personality, but they are slightly larger than a shiba.
• ljowen123

  August 2008 edited November -1

  On the dog shows, go to onofrio.com - there are shows in Atlanta in August, September, and October. It looks like the next one in Orlando is December. Click on the show and you can go back and look at previous years entrant counts for any of the breeds. I know the one in Atlanta had an avg of 12 shibas in the competition for each of the three days. Of course, you can meet breeders, kennel clubs, and vendors for supplies. If you are ever in Atlanta, we have several members on here that are shiba owners - I'm sure we'd love to let you meet our dogs. In addition, we have a pretty good meetup group that meets once a month - we average about 12-14 shibas each time.
  
  My shiba is a bit of an odd duck but is perfect for me. I previously had a siberian husky and wanted to get a dog that was smaller, but still had a big dog personality - I mos def got that in Jazz.
• brandon_w

  August 2008 edited November -1

  You have already been given some good advice. From your description of who you are and how you plan on dedicating yourself to the long term love and care of your future dog, I would say you would be a great owner of any breed of dog.
  
  With your fear of flying it wo uld probably be easiest to drive around and meet Shiba breeders, since there are so many more of them. Although there are some good breeders that do ship now too, I guess it would depend on if you want to meet the breeder and the parents of the dog.
• Edgewood

  August 2008 edited November -1

  I do think that Miko's (JessicaRabbit's Shikoku) sister is in FL -- but I cannot remember the poster's name. I don't think that they post often. But you could search through the Shikoku forum posts and see if you can find them, I know that they posted photos of their little girl a few times.
  
  I think Brad that you might be right about the bloodlines because I think that Kuma (my Shikoku) would do fine in an aparmtment if he got frequent walks. He is actually really calm and quiet in the house. But he does have a lot of energy in his walks.
  
  So if you narrow it down to the Shiba or Shikoku, you also might want to search past thread that discuss the differences. Shibas are definitely more independent and less willing to please than Shikokus. Shikokus are easier to train and seem to like obedience, they are very loyal to their owners. Mine is super lovey to all new people and not standoffish at all (some Shibas are). We say that he would knock down a burglar with kisses (although he does have an alarm bark at times!).
  
  I personally find that the Shikoku fits my personality and lifestyle better because of them being more responsive to learning/obedience and loyal. But it is whatever suits what you like best. The 2 Shikoku breeders are Katja Weber (http://www.akashima.bc.ca/shikoku-article.htm) and Peggy Graham (www.shikokudog.com -- click link for ikon kennel). Talking to them personally may help you as they have owned both Shibas and Shikoku.
• dlroberts

  August 2008 edited November -1

  Doesn't Ivan Mezza have a Kai in Florida? Or am I making that up?
• baanton

  August 2008 edited November -1

  While we are not entirely certain, we believe Josephine to be a Kai. She was pretty wild and crazy as a puppy and still is when there's another dog around. But I have to tell you for the most part, even with the cats in the house to chase, etc. she usually only really winds it up in the great outdoors. For the most part, she has been, and is very pleasant and low key inside our house. And she falls in love with every human, dog or cat she meets, and lets them all know it. We've not had an excessive barking problem, either, although it is one of her methods of "stimulating" another dog to play with her, or establish her role in the pack when she's off-leash and there are two or more other dogs around. Now, we do not have another dog here, and I can tell you whenever the neighbor doggies, dogs at off-leash park, or any dog she randomly meets on a walk are available she loves nothing better than full body contact rumbling, etc. Also, for the most part we have someone around the house at all times, and she doesn't react well to being left alone. She's getting better as she gets older, but there's no doubt she craves constant presence by us.
  
  The biggest drawback I see for you is that her temperament (and Kais in general) is not suited to only walking on the leash. We have to make opportunities almost daily for her to be off-leash. We are fortunate to be near a large well-fenced off-leash park, there are several neighbors yards here on our block where she regularly is invited to play with local playmates off-leash, and we have a 160-acre farm where my husband and I take her frequently for long weekends (not too mention two elementary school boys at the end of the block who love to play with her, get licked by her, etc.). Like Brad, I would NOT recommend a Kai for apartment life and leash-walking only.
  
  Hope that is helpful.
  
  Take care and best of luck with your decision.
• tsukitsune

  August 2008 edited November -1

  Food for thought, sometimes I forget how structurally small the shibas actually are, because everything else about them is so not small froofie dog material, until I get to put their physical size into perspective, say next to a husky or something, sometimes I really forget that they are only 17-20lbs.
  But even their energy and play style seems better suited for bigger dog play. We have a much better time in the big dog side of the dog park, it just seems more adequate for them. Plus I think Tsuki sorta prey-stalks this tiny teacup yorkie that we pass on walks...
  
  What is the physical size difference (per breed standards) between shibas and shikokus? Maybe a few inches and 10lbs or so?
• ljowen123

  August 2008 edited November -1

  We always go into the big dog side - Jazz detests most smaller dogs - she uses her angry (think Incredible Hulk) growl with them.
• JessicaRabbit

  August 2008 edited November -1

  Moto is a bigger dog in personality than many of the pits I have had in the past.
  
  Miko's sister is in Florida. Her name is Kitsune I believe her owners user name is Magmagal (
  Diana and Jonathan (humans), Allie (Norwegian Elkhound), Zara (gray cat) and - at long last! - Kitsune (Shikoku). They haven't posted in a while but they are Floridians.
• Sangmort

  August 2008 edited November -1

  Thank you so much for the responses guys! It's really a big help!
  
  LJ - Thanks so much for the info on the dog shows! I've definitely got to see if I can make it to one. I'd been trying to find out how to look up dog shows but whenever I went to the AKC website I felt lost. I really would love an Akita, the whole family here actually loves akitas. Whenever my sister & father see one on tv they have a mini-freak out. "OMG AKITAAAAAAA!" haha To be honest I hadn't looked at Hokkaido too much since, other then the one paragraph I've read on them in a book, I know nothing about them
  
  Brandon - Thanks Brandon! I almost made a big mistake before, so now I want to be extra careful.
  
  Edgewood - I'll see if I can get in contact with them & if they don't mind me meeting her xD I'm kind of worried about the Shiba's independance since I'd be a first time dog-owner. EVen though I'd go to a million obediance classess, I think it might be easier to start off with a dog that is slightly more trainable. haha & Thanks for the links, since they both have had both types of dogs, Ill definitely see if they can offer any advice for me.
  
  Dave - Don't let your imagination get to you ;p
  
  Baanton - Yeah, maybe I'll wait until I actually own a house to get a Kai, I'd hate to get a Kai & not be able to keep up with him & give him the proper exercise that he needs. Thnks
  
  Jen - The book I have [ Legacy of the Dog ] that actually has a little info on all the nihon ken [ I'll be scanning the pages soon to let you guys take a look, I know few books actually have hokkaido, kai, kishu, etc. in them so it could be interesting ] lists the height / weight as:
  
  Shiba
  - M. 15-16", 20lbs
  - F. 14-15", 17lbs
  
  Shikoku:
  - M. 19-21", 40-53lbs
  - F. 17-19", 33-44lbs
  
  Height is at the Withers. The book is originally Japanese, so it might be based on their standards. Don't know if it's accurate or not
  
  Jessica - Thnks~ I'll see if I can get in contact with her. Though to be honest, I'm a little embarassed to send her a random message saying "Can I meet your Kitsune?" lol ~
• Edgewood

  August 2008 edited November -1

  I know that some of the male Shikoku's are a bit smaller than that posted above. My Kuma is about 10 months old and he is 19 inches and only about 35 lbs. I don't think that he will ever weigh more than 40 lbs. Probably won't get any taller either (maybe about 1/4 inch, but probably not much more). There are other Shikoku males on this forum that are also only around 37 lbs (and they are adults unlike my boy).
• tsukitsune

  August 2008 edited November -1

  I think thats what I was basing my assumption on, that most of the shikas on this forum are relatively small, except for Ahi Monster!!!
  And than you have some shibas that are in the 30lb range..
• Sangmort

  August 2008 edited November -1

  Oh! Another thought just occurred to me...the reason I was also leaning more towards a Shikoku is that there are only two breeders in North America, & from what I understand, both of them are really good. However, there are tons & tons & tons of shiba breeders, & though a few of them are great, some of them, not so much...kind of makes me nervous ~
• ljowen123

  August 2008 edited November -1

  I can agree with you on the shiba breeders - there are some really bad ones out there. I'm glad you are looking for all of this information ahead of time. Research is the key. The personality of the breed and the personality of your dog may be vastly different. I belong to a meetup in Atlanta that meets every month. Last month, we had 14 shibas. It was a great place to see all sorts of personality traits.
  
  When you find a breeder, hopefully you'll be able to spend some time with him/her, as well as with the parents. You'll find this elsewhere on the forum, but socialization is the key - I think with shibas it needs to be stressed above and beyond. Brandon & Jessica & others have made the statement, a tired shiba is a happy shiba. No matter what breed you select, know that keeping them active and socialized will go a huge way into making this a wonderful addition to your family.
• Sangmort

  August 2008 edited November -1

  I know Lj! Type "shiba breeders" into google & be prepared for dissapointment. It really upsets me how people don't take the creating of life seriously I guess most of my intensive research comes from the fact that 'm very nervous xD First time dog owner, though I think it's one of the two things I've always really wanted since I was 7. [ the first was a car ;p ] I've had every other type of animal, iguana, cockatiels, snakes, cats...but nothing is quite like a dog. Well, except maybe some of the cockatiels...they sure act like one.
  
  But dogs are great! They're loyal & loving, but they also demand respect. They're just so different then any other animal in the animal kingdom. Different then cats, different then birds, whenever I see a dog, any dog, I really do think Man's Best Friend.
  
  I also figure I have at least a year to a year & a half before I do get my pup, so I should make the most of it, be patient, & try to learn everything I possibly can !~
• ivanmeza03

  August 2008 edited November -1

  i think a Shiba would be perfect for you. and brad i truly understand you. Kiba + anything that looks like paper or products made from paper (specially toilet paper) = floor cover of pieces of napkins, magazines, newspaper... but shes a good girl
• tobyshiba

  August 2008 edited November -1

  Hmm. I was beginning to wonder what happened to the cutie you posted pictures of a while ago!
  Either way, I still think a Shiba would be a good match for you. And not all Shiba are small. My Shiba is 30lbs at 7 months of age. He could probably gain a few more lbs before hes fully grown, and weigh around the same as a small Shikoku.
  
  Although the Shiba is independent, they will choose who they love. If your the trainer, the walker, the feeder, the lover, and everything else involved with the dog, then yes, a Shiba can become your best friend. A Shiba does need a lot of work, simply because of its independence and attitudes, but once you get past that -- they make great pets.
  
  Toby can get ticked off every now and then AND will throw a fit, but he willingly lays on his back in my lap, and cuddles with me. Showers me with a little waggy tail and kisses everyday. And he normally only does this with me. I know not all Shiba do this -- but if you begin with these positive behaviors at an early age, they will mostly grow to love it, and return the favor.
• BradA1878

  August 2008 edited November -1

  I think I'll help you read between the lines here on the Shikoku thing - if you live in an apartment, and therefore want a lower maintenance Shikoku-Ken, then I would suggest looking at Peggy's breeding program.
  
  It seems - and this is a generalization - Peggy's pups have more of a low maintenance temperament.
  
  ----
  
  Having said that, I was pretty surprised at how calm Ahi has been since she has been restricted after her surgery. So maybe their temperaments are more adaptive then(or than? Jessica/Dave?) I give them credit for. Our Shikoku have access to a large space to run and play all day and many many pups to play with... maybe that is why I feel they are so energetic, because they play all day, non-stop.
  
  ----
  
  Also, I want to clarify one thing about the Kai-Ken, our Kai-Ken [Kona] is actually lower energy than our Shikoku-Ken [Ahi and Loa]. He is more alert and reactive than our Shikas but he does spend a fair amount of time sleeping with the Akita.
  
  The issue I see w/ a Kai-Ken and an apartment is their need to be with their owner. They can suffer some pretty bad separation anxiety and this can lead to barking, crying, chewing, etc. This type of thing doesn't work well in an apartment.
  
  As for the barking - it comes and goes, and for Kona, it probably has more to do with maturing and not really a breed specific trait. For example, Kona has really stopped the barking thing... now it's Lani and Hilo that do the majority of the barking.
  
  Kai-Ken do tend to bark more than the other Nihon-Ken tho, Shikoku too really... any dog that was bred to bay boar or bear will have the ability to bark - that is essential in being a baying dog.
  
  ----
  
  With the Shikoku, sometimes the wait can be over a year - so keep that in mind when planning.
  
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• Sangmort

  August 2008 edited November -1

  Thanks guys! You are all really more help than you know
  
  Steph - I didn't realize Toby was such a big boy!
  
  Brad - Thanks for the clarification! I wouldn't mind a year-long wait though, I think I've learned from my past experience it's better to wait & wait & get something that's worth it. Though I suppose if I'm going to want to get one in fall/winter of 09 I should start contacting breeders now haha
  
  Hmm...so I guess when it comes down to it, it's really either Shiba or Shikoku. Though I'd be super happy with either of them...I'm kind of slighted towards a Shikoku. [ I say this, but the desktop background on all three of my computers are Shiba haha ]
  
  Oh! I had a question! I noticed on Peggy's site she had white Shikoku...I didn't know Shikoku came in a white colour? Or am I mistaken? Also, has anyone here received a Shikoku from Peggy? I know a lot of you guys got yours from Katja. ~
• Edgewood

  August 2008 edited November -1

  I have my Shikoku from Peggy - as does Grandemu and Shandrew. All 3 of ours were from the same litter. Shandrew's boy (Kiba) is white.
  
  White is a non-standard color (ie, not in standard, not for showing) but they can occur with all breedings of Shikoku. Katja told me it happens more often if you breed two lighter red sesames together. But in Peggy's case, Tekai is a darker sesame (but not black sesame) and Sweety is a red sesame and they still occur in some litters. In this litter of 6 puppies, I believe only 1 was white -- the other 5 were sesame/red sesame. Three of these puppies remained in Holland and 3 came to the US (Peggy bred the sire/dam here and then shipped the pregnant bitch to Holland to whelp; the breeder in Holland kept 3 of the puppies and sent the others back to the US).
  
  I believe that Peggy has only and a few litters as she has had the Shikoku for less time than Katja. Remember, they are still really rare outside of Japan. In speaking with Peggy (and Katja), they both are really into maintaining the purity of this rare breed (I have a female on order with Katja - in a future litter).
  
  But Peggy's and some of Katja's come from the same stock which was originally imported into Holland from Japan (and then to Canada and the US). The breeder in Holland is still actively breeding Shikoku and showing them.
• Sangmort

  August 2008 edited November -1

  Oh! Thanks so much for the explanation! I understand now I hadn't realized there was a breeder in Holland either.
  
  I sort of like the fact that they're a rarer breed outside of Japan, as in such a case as this, we know the only few breeders that breed them are actually good breeders. I hadn't heard anyone talk too much about getting their pups from Peggy, so thanks again ~
• ktrebor

  August 2008 edited November -1

  Regarding Hokkaido - to be honest this breed is not suited to apartament life. This is working breed and easily gets bored, they will look for some action on their own. Also they are really, really big barkers (especialy if they don't see source of strange sound or smell).
• JessicaRabbit

  August 2008 edited November -1

  I have a shiba (Moto) and a shikoku (Miko). I have been holding back on commenting too much on energy levels as Miko is only 5 and a half months old and so presently she is a limitless source of energy.
  
  Moto was a rescue. Although allegedly his previous owner received him from a reputable breeder (it was his owner who neglected him abominably) . We lived in an apartment with Moto and were fine. We have a third dog, a pit bull (Piglet) and so Moto had a playmate and walking companion.
  
  We got Miko after we moved in our house, and while I have never had a shikoku as an only dog so I have nothing to compare her to, she out plays Moto constantly. She exhausts him. He is only 2 and compared to her he is a little senior citizen. I can also say though that Miko is awesome in her play pen when we aren't home. She isn't destructive. Doesn't bark much. ANd will probably be amazing when she is a little more mature (I confess, I am WAY more a dog person than a puppy person).
  
  It sounds like you have already made your decision. And are now exploring whether or not it is the right one. You may want to contact Katja just for her opinion too, as she breeds both shikoku and shiba inu.
• grandemu

  August 2008 edited November -1

  We love our shikoku - now that we have her in our family, I hope to always have one in our family. Sora's (and Kuma, Kiba) litter did have the 1 white male, but Sweety's previous two (?) litters had 2 whites in each (I think). They are beautiful, and not completely white. Kiba has a light reddish tan color on his ears and legs I think - his coat is really soft. Peggy only sells the white puppies on a spay/neuter contract, b/c it's not a desirable color. Sora does very well with getting walks (and we're finally starting to run a little). We've been waiting to take her running till she was more grown up (and I definitely have a less than speedy pace - Tag disdains me...he still loves to go though). I think Sora's only complaint is that she can't smell everything like she wants to. But we are definitely fans of the shikoku (never had a shiba...haven't actually met many), they are completely different (looks, behavior) than any other dog I've known.
• Sangmort

  August 2008 edited November -1

  ktrebor - Thnks ! That's good to know.
  
  Jessica - Thnks for sharing Jessica! haha I bet Miko's a real handful. I sent an e-mail to Peggy, haven't gotten around sending one to Katja yet, I'll let you guys know what response I get back
  
  Tom - Yeah, I was kind of confused about the white colour as I'd never seen any white Shikoku before! I must have looked at the pictures ten times trying to figure out if they were shikoku or whether I had read it wrong haha. Aww I kind of feel bad for Sora haha She wants to...smell the world! ~