We took Lani to meet with a behaviorist Saturday...

Comments

• BradA1878

  September 2008 edited November -1

  Also, we got on the topic of "The Dog Whisperer" - she hates that a show like that is on the TV, she was very disgusted by him [as are Jen and I]. She directed me to this article:
  
  http://dogpublic.com/articles/article.aspx?sid=14&pid=1640
  
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• okiron

  September 2008 edited November -1

  Sounds like you guys had a great session. I was wondering why you went to Albuquerque.
  
  Brad if you're ever not busy I'd be thankful for you to explain clicker theory to me. I've been interested but don't really understand it.
  
  That article is very interesting. Makes very good points.
• JessicaRabbit

  September 2008 edited November -1

  I spent the day with a behaviorist with whom I am training under, and she too converted me on clicker training. She also taught me how to use the same technique with a word in place of clicker (the dog we were working with was actually fearful of the clicker sound, it was cool to see the behaviorist adapt her method so effortlessly).
  
  That article was fantastic.
• Romi

  September 2008 edited November -1

  Clicker training is a really great tool. But it is kind of hard to always have a clicker available at all times. We used clicker training for re-direction and obedience training. And it works great. I've never heard of "look" and actually telling the dog to look at the thing they are not comfortable with. Is that similiar to counter conditioning or desensitizing? Im really excited to see the results with Lani. I wish the best of luck to you guys!
• Sangmort

  September 2008 edited November -1

  Awesome Brad! I'm glad to hear you found someone your happy with! I hope you guys can become successful with helping out Lani!
  
  Question!: I've watched many videos & read a couple of books on clicker training...but I'm confused. Do you eventually substitute the clicker with verbal & non-verbal commands, or is the dog tied to the clicker every time you want to issue a command? [ I think it's the former, but I'm not quite sure... ] ~
• JessicaRabbit

  September 2008 edited November -1

  You use a clicker to mark a good behavior. You can easily use an alternate word and tone, you just need to be super consistent for instance
  *sit* "GOOD"
  *down* "GOOD"
  *stay* "GOOD"
  *come* "GOOD" +well deserved treat.
  
  Your are marking the good behavior almost like punctuating a sentence.
• dlroberts

  September 2008 edited November -1

  Brad, I'm so glad to hear things went well for you and more importantly for Lani. I too am curious to hear what this behaviorist had to say about clicker training. If you get a chance and can write us a summary that would be great. I ordered the book you suggested just now. I'm pretty excited to be on the cutting edge. :-)
  
  I hope things continue to improve for Lani and that the blood work leads you to an (hopefully easy) answer.
• Sangmort

  September 2008 edited November -1

  I see...so then, as time goes on...do you phase out the clicker?~
• Heidi

  September 2008 edited November -1

  Personally, I use the clicker and a verbal marker because sometimes I'm without my clicker, and sometimes I want the precision of the clicker. Not sure if that's "correct", but it's what I do.
• BradA1878

  September 2008 edited November -1

  Ok, I will try to regurgitate what we learned, but I am sure it will suck in comparison...
  
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  What Dani [the behaviorist] taught us about clicker training was that you don't actually give a command for what you want the dog to do. You wait for the dog to do what you want them to do and then mark it with a click and then give them a reward. The click is the exchange of "data" and the treat is the "reward" for the exchange. You don't teach them the command [verbal or physical] till they have mastered what you want them to do. that way when you teach them the command they have already perfected the activity so you are just associating the command with the CORRECT activity.
  
  Example, to teach Lani to look at us in the eyes, we stand in front of her till she looks at use in the eyes [you can say her name to get her attention]. When she makes eye contact you click then treat. Keep doing this till she is very comfortable looking you in the eye and is doing it w/o you saying her name [she is offering the activity]. Once she is to that point, she has perfected the "watch me" and then you start saying "watch me", wait for her to make eye contact, then click and treat. This associates the command "watch me" with what she has already learned on her own. This is really the core of what I had not realized with clicker training - you let them learn the activity on their own then you just associate a command with it.
  
  The idea is they have to work to figure out what the click represented [Dog's thoughts (maybe): Why did it click? Was it because I looked at them in the eyes? Let me try looking at them in the eyes again... CLICK, TREAT, mmmm - BINGO!] - this builds a stronger association and builds more confidence since they had to solve the "puzzle" to get the prize [the puzzle is the association of the work and the action].
  
  Once you have accomplished a solid association between the command and the action they learned on their own there is no need for a clicker when giving the command because the association is already confidently built [from both perspectives - dog and human].
  
  Does that help?
  
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  The other thing she talked about that was really interesting and totally contradicts what a typical trainer would teach you... She talked about that when a dog has moved passed their fear threshold they are totally operating off their sympathetic nervous system [opposed to their parasympathetic nervous system] and therefore are incapable of learning. Learning is associated with the parasympathetic system and the parasympathetic and sympathetic systems cannot operate at the same time.
  
  Eating food, because it is associated with "normal function", can only happen when a dog [or human] is operating off his/her parasympathetic nervous system.
  
  So when, for example, we go into town and Lani shuts down [passes her fear threshold] our feeling (due to years of basic - crappy - obedience training) was that giving her a treat during this time was reinforcing her fears but really since, at that time, she is operating off her sympathetic nervous system she is incapable of learning and therefore incapable of associating her fears with reinforcement.
  
  So by feeding her at that time [when she is operating off her sympathetic nervous system] you are actually helping her to behave "normally" (eating is a normal behavior) and that helps to switch her over to her parasympathetic system. At that point, once she is taking a treat, you can move her to a far enough distance to where she is no passed her fear threshold.
  
  This teaches her that you are there to protector and helps build her confidence - tho really you should never take your dog past their fear threshold, they should never get to that point... it is our job(s) as their owner(s) to keep them safe so they can function normally.
  
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  Hope that makes sense.
  
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• Sangmort

  September 2008 edited November -1

  OK! I understand now Brad. Thanks! [ good job regurgitating ;p ]
  
  This is a video I bookmarked a few months ago on clicker training [ specifically, teaching your dog "leave it" ] I think it's pretty good, though the guy himself is a bit...strange... [ side note; on the page for that video...some idiot posts "Better not do that with a grown akita" wtf is wrong with people? You'd think people would leave the breed profiling alone. ]~
• okiron

  September 2008 edited November -1

  Makes a lot of sense Brad. You're better at explaining (or re-explaining) things than you give yourself credit for.
  
  So will you start clicker training your dogs from now on? Or is it going to be too hard retraining all your dogs?
• Romi

  September 2008 edited November -1

  Great job explaining Brad! That makes a lot of sense. When we started obedience class, that was the first time clicker training was introduced to us. We would use the treat as the bait to get the dogs to do what we wanted. For example...for teaching sit. We would put the treat in our hand and raise it above their head, which makes them automatically sit. Once their bottom touched the ground, we would click and treat. After a few reps, we then added the word while doing the hand motion and then would click and treat. My dogs respond more to my physical commands vs my vocal commands. They still don't do a "down" unless I make the physical movement for a "down".
  
  I have a session on the 16th with a new behaviorist who uses clicker training as well...I will have to see how she teaches the clicker technique.
  
  Thanks for sharing!
• Leonberger

  September 2008 edited November -1

  That's great Brad!
  That explanation sounds a a lot like the one Alexandra (Kuma's behaviourist) gave us. We never gave him a command while teaching him, just showed him the way.Then, when he was comfortable with it, we'd start introducing the command. She got him walking on leash without pulling in under 5 minutes, it was great!
  I was also not sure about the clicker thing before we met Alexandra, but the results were very convincing.
• dlroberts

  September 2008 edited November -1

  That makes perfect sense Brad. Thanks for summarizing for us.
  
  I especially like the explanation of the parasympathetic vs. sympathetic nervous system. The point about using food to re-engage the parasympathetic nervous system is subtle though. If you don't do it carefully, I can see how you might end up reinforcing that wrong behavior. The key point is to use the food to put them in a frame of mind where they can be taught. So the food doesn't end the exercise, it begins it.
  
  It sounds like you guys did a really good thing by driving all that distance! Kudos! :-)
• StaticNfuzz

  September 2008 edited November -1

  That is great news from the behaviorist! I will say that after clicker training quite a few animals not just dogs, I will never go back to yank and jerk,prong, or herding. Manipulation of a situation and positioning go a long way with trust building and self control using the clicker without the need physically touch the animal, which can further distract or escalate a situation.
  
  It it hard to describe the clicker theory and most do not believe me when I tell them how well it works. It is a show me type of thing and you have to have some good practice with a good teacher to get it just right. I am so glad your behaviorist was able to explain it down to the nitty gritty. No talking is really necessary.... That is the #1 issue with pet owners, they talk too much when trying to train. All the "chatty" becomes needless noise that most of the time does not assist in getting the concepts across to the animal.
  
  Karen Pryor's (she developed the clicker method for dolphins and whales) site is one that I would look into online. She does have some free online clips of how to mark to get the actions you want.
  
  Agreed, Nichole Wilde and her books have helped many in rescue with building confidence in dogs. Shy dogs need the extra to get them over the hump. I think Jen referred to Wilde's book to help out with Hachi. I refer back to Wilde as needed and it a standard on my shelf, as is Karen Pryor and Pat Miller.
  
  Snf
• sunyata

  September 2008 edited November -1

  Thanks for the info, Brad. It definitely makes sense to get them to perfect the behaviour before teaching them the verbal or physical command. I am getting excited, as Nola just had her last round of shots and can begin puppy training classes. Time to dust off the old clicker!
  
  And I am definitely going to have to check out the books.
• tsukitsune

  September 2008 edited November -1

  Wilde has been amazing in helping ME understand my dogs' need for confidence and acceptance of that which irks them. Invaluable info there.
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  Great explanation of clicker training. I might let my husband read it - he still thinks its a waste of time with Hachi and Kitsu - where Tsuki is not who it was truly intended for but she picked it right up!
  ..
  That behaviorist sounds amazing. I admire canine professionals that allow you to take time to truly understand your dog's predicament and that give you a realistic, personally tailored approach to overcoming and meeting your expectations for the dog. Bravo with finding her and all the best with Lani's progress.
• dlroberts

  September 2008 edited November -1

  Actually, I meant to post this earlier. I also REALLY admire a behaviorist that will admit to being stumped. All indicators are that you found a good one! :-)