An interesting video that shows some "rank" politics & misdirected frustration...
Here is a clip I took yesterday, this is at the very end of a long play session.
Kona and Hilo are playing, but Kona is uber-submissive to Hilo and so he really doesn't play much, he just lets Hilo chew on him.
Well Hilo gets a bit excited and starts manhandeling Kona a bit to hard, Kona [being so submissive to Hilo] tries to run away.
Kona running away ignites Ahi, Lani, and Fuji's prey drive(s)...
If you watch closely in the video you can see I catch the end of Hilo chasing Kona after Kona has started to run away from him. You see Ahi, Lani and Hilo starting to take Kona down. Hilo muscles Kona onto his back - at this time [0:04] Ahi moves in [and pushed Lani out] and then Fuji follows. They abuse him for a few seconds.
I then redirect Hilo away from Kona [he was chewing on his leg], this lets Kona be less submissive [because Hilo is not there]. Kona corrects Fuji, she leaves, then turns and takes most [if not all] of his frustration out on Ahi [0:12].
Ahi gets pissed, and at 0:16 Ahi gives "the look". Kona realizes he is gonna get the Ahi wrath and turns to run but bumps into Fuji 0:17. This disrupts things for a second so Kona can get out of the way of Ahi [after exchanging one final "look" with Ahi at 0:18 - Ahi even gives a little warning grunt].
Ok, then Kona runs away, but right past Hilo! Hilo jumps him, then Ahi (again) get involved. Kona gets mad at Ahi (again). Jen and I redirect Hilo away from Kona (again) and then Ahi and Kona have their moment.
This is the point of my posting...
At about 0:35 Kona really gives it to Ahi [hard to see due to the sun light], Kona really takes it all out on her. So Ahi he gives him one last blow, basically throwing him 3 feet or so backwards 0:38 - Kona has once again learned the power of the Ahi monster. Keep in mind Kona out weighs Ahi by more than 5lb.
*Take note of how hectic and panicked Kona seems, but how mellow and calculated Ahi is. IMHO, this is a true sign of confidence on Ahi's part.
Also at the end you can see clearly how submissive Kona is to Hilo. At 0:47 Hilo walks over to Kona and you can see Kona's posture changes completely with Hilo's presence.
A good example of why our dogs don't run free unwatched, and how quickly play can turn into an issue with a group of dogs. Once one gives chase, they all get in on it, and it takes a very confident dog to be able to stand up to a large group of dogs chasing him.
It all comes to down to fight or flight.
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Kona and Hilo are playing, but Kona is uber-submissive to Hilo and so he really doesn't play much, he just lets Hilo chew on him.
Well Hilo gets a bit excited and starts manhandeling Kona a bit to hard, Kona [being so submissive to Hilo] tries to run away.
Kona running away ignites Ahi, Lani, and Fuji's prey drive(s)...
If you watch closely in the video you can see I catch the end of Hilo chasing Kona after Kona has started to run away from him. You see Ahi, Lani and Hilo starting to take Kona down. Hilo muscles Kona onto his back - at this time [0:04] Ahi moves in [and pushed Lani out] and then Fuji follows. They abuse him for a few seconds.
I then redirect Hilo away from Kona [he was chewing on his leg], this lets Kona be less submissive [because Hilo is not there]. Kona corrects Fuji, she leaves, then turns and takes most [if not all] of his frustration out on Ahi [0:12].
Ahi gets pissed, and at 0:16 Ahi gives "the look". Kona realizes he is gonna get the Ahi wrath and turns to run but bumps into Fuji 0:17. This disrupts things for a second so Kona can get out of the way of Ahi [after exchanging one final "look" with Ahi at 0:18 - Ahi even gives a little warning grunt].
Ok, then Kona runs away, but right past Hilo! Hilo jumps him, then Ahi (again) get involved. Kona gets mad at Ahi (again). Jen and I redirect Hilo away from Kona (again) and then Ahi and Kona have their moment.
This is the point of my posting...
At about 0:35 Kona really gives it to Ahi [hard to see due to the sun light], Kona really takes it all out on her. So Ahi he gives him one last blow, basically throwing him 3 feet or so backwards 0:38 - Kona has once again learned the power of the Ahi monster. Keep in mind Kona out weighs Ahi by more than 5lb.
*Take note of how hectic and panicked Kona seems, but how mellow and calculated Ahi is. IMHO, this is a true sign of confidence on Ahi's part.
Also at the end you can see clearly how submissive Kona is to Hilo. At 0:47 Hilo walks over to Kona and you can see Kona's posture changes completely with Hilo's presence.
A good example of why our dogs don't run free unwatched, and how quickly play can turn into an issue with a group of dogs. Once one gives chase, they all get in on it, and it takes a very confident dog to be able to stand up to a large group of dogs chasing him.
It all comes to down to fight or flight.
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Comments
She really gave to Kona there. Ahi is a serious contender.
Very well documented, Brad!
a)how cool and how well you handle the shifts.
&
b)how well you guys assess the situation and the politics of it all.
Thank you for sharing that with us.
I'll be really interested to watch when you have your LGD and 2nd male akita.
Ahi is an impressive creature.
I second what Jen says. It will be interesting to see how the pack dynamics will change with the addition of Kahuna and your LGD.
Can't see the video on my phone...but your explanation was great!
In all fairness tho, I "got" about 25% while it was happening, the rest came from watching the video. I knew Ahi was after Kona when I was making it, but I didn't at all see/hear her little warnings or even 100% understand why she was after him.
I like watching videos of that stuff because I think it helps me better understand things for the next time e have an "event" like this - which is surprisingly rare.
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One thing I would like to point out is, notice how non-vicious the Akita are? Kona gives Fuji one little snap and Fuji was out and All Ahi had to do was push Lani out of the way and she was done. As for Hilo, I say his name and he turns and leaves the scene. Out of those dogs involved, the Akita are the "fighting breed", tho they seem the least interested in causing a fight. Interesting. [granted our Akita girls are young, but Hilo is maturer now]
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All this BSL crap is getting to be out of hand. Last night in front of the petstore, someone was actually petitioning FOR BSL in PA. Way to pick your audience.
i always thought Akitas were grouped with the latter.
*The top 'picks' of bans are usually Pit Bull Terriers, Akitas, Rottweilers, American Staffordshire Bull Terriers, Chow Chows, German Shepherd Dogs, and Doberman Pinschers.. even Boxers and smaller terriers are sometimes included. The list keeps growing, too.
it is an ethical and public safety failure.
http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/dangerous_dogs.html
http://stopbsl.com/bsloverview/the-failure-to-improve-safety/
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/aruslweiss2001.htm
And yes, it is rediculous. I know MANY dogs who are on the lists who are the sweetest most loving things ever...then there are dogs who are not on the list (my sister has a ferocious chihuahua!) who I wouldn't go near with a 10 ft pole.
I have Google Alerts setup for Akita and I get all the BSL propaganda - it's racism. I hate it. I actually freaked out and posted a comment to a pro-BSL blogger arguing against their comments, but they didn't add my comment. What a surprise.
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Unfortunately, it's extremely difficult to own an Akita here in FL. Just about every apartment complex has a ban on Akita [ amongst others ] & even if you own your own home the home owner association may put a ban on having your akita too. It really sucks
In videos like this, what I think we see is "rank aggression" not pack order politics. In this particular video I think we see Ahi showing "rank aggression". The resource she was guarding was her space, she values her space VERY highly and will not tolerate a family member [I say "family member" because this extends even to Jen and I] initiating physical interaction with her unless she provokes it - this is why she growls at us [meaning all animals in the family] when we touch her [tho Jen and I don't listen to her like the other family members do].
In my opinion the idea that these pretty intelligent dogs that we live with blindly follow some "pecking order" that is held together with simple aggressive displays seems patronizing and offensive to a dogs' intelligence. They are way smarter than that, way too smart to let some silly aggressive displays dictate what they can and cannot interact with and at what time. They are also too smart to fight over something as simple as "pack order" <- which is a relatively abstract thing. They fight over things that matter to them, like food, water, toys, etc. AND In a domestic pack they learn that food, toys, and water is plentiful and most don't even fight over those items.
I don't think it is a "pecking order" where there is an alpha, beta, omega, etc. but I do think there is a "rank" system applied to different resources and each dog learns each others personal value of those resources. I see it more as a family unit where we all learn to get along and respect each other's personal values - when those values are disrespected there are consequences. Some dogs do more disrespecting than others [like Kona] and therefore get corrected more often.
Here are some examples...
If Loa wants a toy from Lani she bothers Lani till she gives up and Loa gets it. Lani will never give a toy to Kona or even Hilo no matter how much they bother her yet she shows submission to Hilo all the time [licking his face, rolling over for him, etc]. Ahi, on the other hand, will not give a toy up to any dogs and no dogs even challenge for it [except Kona who gets his ass kicked for something like that]. Ahi can also take a toy from almost any of the dogs, even Lani, BUT Ahi can't take a toy from Loa without a fight.
If Lani wants Loa's food she walks right up and takes it, same applies for Kona. Lani and Ahi can't take Hilo's food tho, and Lani can't take Ahi's food either. Loa can take Hilo's food BUT Ahi and Kona <i>can't take Hilo's food. Actually Ahi can't take any food from any of the dogs, even Maui or Kaia. Also no dog can take food from Lani.
So, based on that [true] example, you can't really tell a "pecking order". The "pecking order" is different for food vs. toys. If it was the same Ahi would be able to take food from any dog and Loa would be able to take Lani's food.
In the example it is clear the Shikoku value toys above anything and the Akita value food above anything. If the Akita have a toy they usually give it up when a Shikoku wants it. Ahi seems to understand that the other dogs value food higher than her, and while she will wait for a dog to finish their food so she can have the leftovers, and control the order of the line of pups waiting for the leftovers too, she doesn't challenge for it BUT she will guard her own food from the others.
Another interesting example is with physical encounters. Kona allows any of the dogs to touch him, even manhandle him, without him inviting them unless he is sleepy - no dogs can touch him when he is sleepy without getting a beating [he even growls at Jen and I if we touch him when he is sleepy]. With Hilo he allows this behavior about 50% of the time, that's why a lot of the dogs appear to be abusing him a lot. Ahi will never allow this behavior. Ahi seems to value the rules and good manners higher than anything else. She will readily fight a family member if they try to touch her or abuse her in some way that she feels was not invited or deserved. You see, that is why she can't take a toy from any of the pups, because she views that as rude, and she doesn't tolerate rudess. Good behavior is as valuable to Ahi as food is to Lani.
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Still, I think that there should be a hierarchy in any given pack of social animals. You mentioned that Lani is submissive to Hilo and we've seen how the same is true for Kona. So it's clear that both of them see him as a "superior" in their hierarchy.
Your point, if I understood it correctly, is that that "hierarchy superiority" won't grant Hilo access to a toy Lani has, just because he wants it, because that hierarchy is not followed blindly, but it exists.
uh..
Trying to take it all in
Then, it really isn't a hierarchy, it's more of what each individual dog perceives as "acceptable," & what they will & wont tolerate. Just like people
So, each dog has a set of boundaries & importances that they will or will not accept. ie; Ahi doesn't like it when the family initiates physical contact uninvited with her, so she doesn't do it to any one else, kona doesn't mind be physically touched uninvited, so he perceives it as natural to initiate physical contact with the rest of the family.
The only thing I'm confused on, then, is is there someone whom most of them are submissive to? Why is a certain dog submissive, but another is not? What makes a dog submissive?
Ok, I think I confused myself even more
Osy - I think there is probably a hierarchy on some level but I think it has more to do with the personality of the individual dog and not so much the age, size, "dominance", etc... In my opinion the hierarchy [who is a leader] follows the same basic principles as it does in humans. There are born leaders and born followers. All of us have met someone in our lives who is a born leader. Even if you are a born leader, you will meet someone in your life that gives off a leadership vibe and makes you want to follow them. Those people tend to be confident, and I think the same applies to a group of dogs.
In our pack, Ahi and Hilo are the most confident. Hilo is what I would call a "benevolent leader", while Ahi is a bit more like a "dictator". The pups listen to Ahi and will follow her and give her special privileges because they don't want to feel her wrath. The pups follow Hilo, even more so than Ahi, because he is a level-headed confident leader that allows a certain level of "free thinking" amongst the other dogs but he also reinforces the rules around the house.
It's kinda like an office...
- I have a boss, he is a nice and cool guy. He respects me and tolerates my opinions, but he expects me to do what he asks. I do what he asks because I respect him and I want him to succeed as a boss [as a team] as much as I want to succeed myself, and he pays me. This is an example of Hilo.
- I once worked for a boss that was a total dick, he bossed everyone around and would not tolerate constructive criticism of what he did. He was super confident but it came from a darker place. I did what he said primarily because I didn't want to lose my pay and I didn't want to have a conflict, but I didn't respect him. So, given the opportunity, I eventually quit and gave him a piece of my mind on the way out [like Kona does to Ahi]. This is an example of Ahi.
So, to answer your questions, Osy, dogs will be submissive to other dogs out of respect for their natural born leadership and confidence, just like people.
In our pack all the pups listen to Ahi and Hilo but only Loa shows typical submissive behavior to Ahi. On the other hand all the dogs, except Ahi and Kaia, show submissive behavior to Hilo. They respect Hilo's confidence and fairness, while they just don't want to be beat up by Ahi.
The pup to watch in our pack is Fuji. She is the only one, so far, that shows the same type of confident leadership qualities as Hilo.
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It's funny that you say that but from watching your videos I thought there was something very similar between Fuji & Hilo, but I wasn't quite sure what it was.
I wonder how Kahuna will be
I hope that Kahuna is confident, that is all I really care about. If he is confident then he will be confident in his role/place in the family.
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I think I'm going to buy the book on it, "The Peter Principle: why things always go wrong" lol
BTW, random semi-interesting fact, Best Buy does not technically have "management." While we have managers, supervisors, & seniors, they all fall into the category of "Leadership." So we say, he was promoted to leadership, he is applying for a leadership position, have you spoken about your problem with leadership, etc. no one says "management."
To be honest though, I think I've learned more about leadership from books about raising dogs than from the "leadership" at work. Kind of sad!
I can't wait to see all the Kahuna spammage, I absolutely am in love with him!