Some questions about the Breeding of Nihon Ken
Hey guys! Hope everyone's doing well 
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I had a few questions about breeding, specifically about the breeders of Nihon Ken. So I'd like to discuss stuff that goes beyond the general topic of a good breeder.
Here goes!
o1. Is it "acceptable" to breed Japanese Akita with American Akita? Personally, I think they're two distinctive looking dogs, however I've seen quite a few Akita Breeders mixing them. If You get a puppy that is part american / part japanese Akita, can they be shown? In Japan? In the States?
o2. When it comes to Shiba, the coat colours seems to be very strict as far as what is acceptable & what is not. [ Red, Sesame, & Black / Tan are the only acceptable coat colours ] & Anyone who breeds cream Shibas are generally not a very good breeder [ as they're not breeding to the "shiba standard" ] so what about breeding two different coloured Shiba? Should Black / Tan Shibas be bred with Red Shibas? Or does a Red shiba need to be bred with a Red Shiba? Can the breeding of two different coloured Shiba produce undesired coat colours or poor urajiro?
o3. Same question as above, only in regard to Akita. Should Red Akita be bred with Brindle Akita, for example?
I had a few more questions, but I can't remember them. These are just some things I've been confused about
Thanks guys!~
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I had a few questions about breeding, specifically about the breeders of Nihon Ken. So I'd like to discuss stuff that goes beyond the general topic of a good breeder.
Here goes!
o1. Is it "acceptable" to breed Japanese Akita with American Akita? Personally, I think they're two distinctive looking dogs, however I've seen quite a few Akita Breeders mixing them. If You get a puppy that is part american / part japanese Akita, can they be shown? In Japan? In the States?
o2. When it comes to Shiba, the coat colours seems to be very strict as far as what is acceptable & what is not. [ Red, Sesame, & Black / Tan are the only acceptable coat colours ] & Anyone who breeds cream Shibas are generally not a very good breeder [ as they're not breeding to the "shiba standard" ] so what about breeding two different coloured Shiba? Should Black / Tan Shibas be bred with Red Shibas? Or does a Red shiba need to be bred with a Red Shiba? Can the breeding of two different coloured Shiba produce undesired coat colours or poor urajiro?
o3. Same question as above, only in regard to Akita. Should Red Akita be bred with Brindle Akita, for example?
I had a few more questions, but I can't remember them. These are just some things I've been confused about
Thanks guys!~
Comments
o4. Until how old should a dog & a bitch be bred? What is the youngest age that they can start breeding?
o5. How often can a dog & bitch be bred? What is the time span between litters / breedings? ~
2) Breeding two different colored Shibas is perfectly acceptable (assuming they aren't cream). Black and Tan is a recessive so two reds can produce a black and tan. Joey's dad is a black and tan and his mom is a red. Undesired coat colors (e.g. pinto, or cream) or poor urajiro can result even from responsible breeding. It happens. What makes a breeder responsible in the eyes of confirmation is they make every effort to prevent those things from happening. For example, they won't repeat a breeding if an cream is produced. Or they may retire a dog that has produced poor urajiro with two separate mates. Etc.
3) Same applies for Akita.
That's my understanding anyway. I hope it helps!
4,5) Bitches should never be bred in their first heat. Some breeders will start with the second, some with the third (which occur at about 16 and 24 months). I don't know when a dog should be bred first, but I imagine it would be ok to start them younger than a bitch. Bitches should be retired at six years old at the latest, even earlier if they are bred often. They should never be bred in consecutive heats either. Again, I don't know when dogs should be retired, but I imagine it would be ok to let them go a bit longer.
- Sometimes it is "okay" to do back-to-back breedings on a female, depending on the circumstances.
- Depending on the breed and the health of the bitch, I'd say 6-7. If it is a bitch that has had maybe one or two litters in the past and has produced very well...she should be bred one last time. For males, frozen semen is common, however, I've never heard of "frozen eggs" for females.
- Males indeed can be used for breeding much later on in life then females, however, the older the dog, the lesser the quality of the sperm. Just like any other living creature...the quality was never as good as it was it was in his younger days.
There is a good section in Gretchen Haskett's book, the Total Shiba, regarding coat color and inheritance of coat color genes, recessive vs dominant, and the spontatenous occurance vs intentional selection of cream coat color. I found it very helpful.
No! They are two different breeds, at least from where I'm sitting. The FCI has already separated them a few years ago, even had the whole Great Japanese Dog thing. (Didn't like that name much either, I think American Akita is just fine.)
o1. In America it is called "blending" when you breed the 2 Akita "types" together, and in America it is 100% acceptable. Same applies for the UK and CAN. Most, if not all, of the AKC Akita breeders are pro-blending.
o2. What Dave said.
o3. In a lot of cases it is better to breed brindle Akita to a WFR or white, in order to get the diversity. Keep in mind a brindle Akita, no matter what the color, is genetically a red Akita just with certain colors diluted or with a brindle gene.
o4. The accuracy of hip, elbow, & knee tests goes from 90% accuracy to 95% from 1 year old to 2 year old, 2+ years gives you 95+% accuracy. The OFA will not certify test results any earlier than 24 months. There is no way you can guarantee the health of a male or female dog if you breed them BEFORE 2 years of age because the tests are not accurate enough. Therefore, IMHO, you should not breed a male or female before they are 2 years old. For females there is also something important to factor in - their maturity. For example, Lani is less mentally mature than Fuji. If we were gonna breeder her I would probably give her till 3 years before we did so. It is important that the dam be a good mother, and that requires maturity. [we are NOT breeding Lani]
05. This is a controversial question. There is a lot of new data coming out that points to the opposite of what I have always considered to be correct. Having said that, it has always been my understanding that a you should space breedings out with at least one heat cycle between them for a female. I wouldn't breed a female more than 3 times, that's my opinion. The issue is that breeding takes a lot out of a female and I want my females to be happy and healthy not run-down and over-bred. The new data coming out seems to point to the danger of letting a female have empty heats, new data shows it is very hard on their system to have an "empty" heat. So we have been considering adjusting our breeding plans to allow for slightly less time between breedings. Instead of keeping a female intact for several years while you wait to breed her again, just breed her with less time [like a year] in between the 2 or 3 breedings you have planned for her and then get her fixed. The thing I don't like about this plan is that it gives you less time to monitor the health of her offspring before you breed her gain. Like I said - this is a tough one - a double edged sword.
I also don't think you should *not* repeat a breeding unless you have special circumstance to do so [like they produced amazing puppies or a singleton litter]. That's just my opinion tho, I am sure not everyone agrees with it.
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I chat with a lot of breeders, some newish to the game and some veterans. I like chatting with breeders of all types of breeds. One thing I have learned is that when you enter the breeding arena everything is black and white, you say a lot of "I will NEVER do..." or "I would NEVER do..." but when it comes down to it you learn quickly there is a LOT of grey area in breeding. You learn there is no perfect dog, and you start to eat your words. That is why I try not to judge breeders for the choices they make.
When you breed you choose your priorities. For us it's this:
1) Health
2) Temperament
3) Type
Other breeders may prioritize things differently, that is just how we [Jen and I] do it.
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Just to clarify; I'm not interested in breeding, & I probably never will be. I mostly wanted to get some of this info down so I continue to have knowledge when I look for breeders, or when other people ask me advice about breeders.
I guess I've just become so paranoid about my first shitty encounter, I want to make sure I have all my bases covered.
Thanks muchly
I have knowledge now
- Hahah...I'd be careful what you say Osy. You might find yourself in that department -grin-. I too wasn't interested in breeding either in the beginning. I just wanted to train and compete dogs. I didn't want the responsiblity of aiding in their creation. I mean, what would happen if I screwed up? And then, the more I got into the whole dog training...I figured "Well hey...I can help other breeders out by co-owning a dog with them or allowing them to lease mine for breeding." I still believed that if I had a great dog, that dog's genetics should not go to waste. Then I got more into the gentics aspect of it....and I was fascinated, the more I learned, the more I became intrigued...
...there is more to a breeder then what I previously thought. I guess one just kinda "falls" into it, lol. Once you get suckered though, you're never the same. So becareful what you say -wink-, you do not need to clarify anything -smiles-. You might have to "eat" your words later on, lol.
Brad - Isn't that how it goes? -very big grin-
Maybe ten years down the line... lol
To be honest, I don't think I'd be able to give the puppies away!
But if I do end up breeding, [ which would be a long, long, long time from now ] I will glady eat my words
But most of our breeders didn't cross the 2 types before.
Concerning unwanted colors :
We have a thing in France called "confirmation". A dog have to pass the confirmation before having the right to have puppy. There is a minimal age (changing with breeds, but its around 12 - 15 monthes) 12 monthes for Shiba, 15 monthes for Akita...
In "Confirmation", a juge watch if the dog is corresponding with the standard... And give, or not, the right to breed with.
If the 2 parents are not confirmed, puppies will never have a pedigree.
Dogs are first register in the breed book and have the definitive pedigree after being confirmed.
And athough a breeding program generally works best with each breeder having one or two females, with Shikoku it looks as if we may end up with a lot more dogs. I can already forsee this. Using my own situation, since there are already many good producing breeders of Malinois and easier access to other dogs...I won't be producing as many Malinois puppies as I will be Shikoku puppies.
When importing, we rely on our source breeders in Japan to sell us good healthy dogs and ones that should produce well with our existing lines. Together we can try mixing and matching up lines to see what will also produce well.
I'd strongly recommend studying up some Japanese. I had actually been studying Japanese way before I got involved with the Shikoku and what little I could read, congugate and comprehend has helped immensely. Then go visit Japan and go to the Nihon Ken Show. They are highly fascinated by foreigners who are interested in their dogs. They will come up and talk to you, whether they know English or just speak Japanese, they will still approach and try to strike up a convo! Tis a great way to learn about the breed from breeders, owners and handlers.
My Japanese is terrible at best. If someone is speaking to me, I can pick out about half of what they're saying. I've always been nervous about speaking it myself and I am rapidly forgetting all my verbs. My current plan is to finish my undergrad degree, and then go to Japan as an English teaching assistant via JET. While I'm there I will greatly improve my Japanese skills, and I will be able to attend some shows and talk to some breeders.
I wish that the pedigrees of Shikoku were more readily available on websites -- that would make life easier.
Unfortunately, I absolutely hated Spanish. [ it could've been real useful here in FL ] There was just something about the language I wasn't very fond of. French I retained a little longer, thanks to some extra French Classes in High School I can still read it, but can't speak. Japanese was probably the best for me. I learned how to write & read katakana & hiragana with some Kanji, I could speak & semi-fluently understand. It was pretty cool as when I got to High School we had a foreign exchange student who would communicate with me
Personally, I found Japanese to be the easiest of all three languages. Writing in Japanese is even easier than writing in English, though the grammar can get a bit tricky, once you know most of the vocabulary you begin to pick it up.
Since I was self taught I think it made it more fun too. [ no pressure ] I also found a lot of similarities surprisingly between Japanese & Arabic [ which I am fluent, but with an accent
Hopefully, I'll be taking classes for Japanese next semester
I think we should all plan a Nihon Ken Forum Group to Japan lol Maybe in like 4 or 5 years from now so some of us can save the money
Back on the subject of breeding, though, I found this to be an excellent article. http://www.sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/PadgettDefects.htm
But my point was that French and Spanish originated in neighbour countries.
I plan on taking a Japanese course when I go back to university (in a year or so?). It will be credits toward my degree anyway, so why not? I have a knack for languages. I learned German really fast and even got a scholarship for the best grade in German in the school, and that was after they agreed that I only had to write the final. I went to class, but as a tutor. Anyway, enough bragging, point is - Sure, I'll learn Japanese! I like anime, too, so there's a bonus.
I'm really excited about my kennel. I'm getting ready to register my kennel with the CKC and will probably be breeding Navi in a year or so. The next dog I get will definitely be a shikoku, hopefully for breeding. I'm so excited!