Choosing between Kai or Shikoku

asiaasia
edited October 2008 in General
I was wondering if my perceptions are correct in the following areas:
The Shikoku and Kai both enjoy outdoor activities and cooler climates.
They both require a good deal of exercise
The Kai would be ok in an apartment, the Shikoku needs a fenced in yard
The Shikoku requires more grooming/bathing than the Kai
The Shikoku is more willing to please than the Kai

I know there was an earlier discussion about these two specifically, but I think it may be closed. If there is another that can answer my questions, please feel free to point me in the direction...
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Comments

  • NekopanNekopan
    edited November -1
    I don't know from personal experience, but from what I've gathered neither would be suited to an apartment unless they get at least 2-3 long walks a day. Grooming is equal for both. I think Kai are fairly willing to please as well, especially with their special person. Kai typically bond closely with one person.
  • NekopanNekopan
    edited November -1
    A thread about Kai: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1134
    A thread about Shikoku: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1135
  • asiaasia
    edited November -1
    THat was exactly what I was looking for!! Thank you Kyla! I got the apartment things from the North American Kai Ken association, and I believe another member on the forum said they had a Kai who did fine while they lived in an apartment. I am looking for a dog I can exercise with, intensely. I just did my first half marathon, so I want a dog I can take with me. I was curious however, if my temperament would be better suited with a Shikoku than a Kai... I will soon be the lone ranger in my house/apartment, so bonding close to one person is almost a preference. :)

    Thanks again!!
  • NekopanNekopan
    edited November -1
    Sounds like a Kai would be a perfect fit for you, then. :) I'm sure a Shikoku would be a good match as well, but if you're looking for a dog to do marathons and the like with you, (I think) a Kai would be better.

    Oh, I just wanted to add, if you want a dog that will be able to do intense exercise (close to) right away, look for an adult. Vigorous exercise isn't good for a pup as it can damage their growing bodies.
  • asiaasia
    edited November -1
    Considering I did very, very poorly on my half marathon, I think we may both need to work up to it ;-). No, in all honesty, I figured that with a puppy, I would have to change my workouts a little.

    I have actually thought about rescue as well however - once I get everything in order and set up for having a dog - For the reason you mentioned, and also because i have a friend who works at a shelter. There seems to be more kais or akitas in shelters than other Nihon ken, though that could just be the sites I get.

    At the same time, I am kind of attached to the idea of raising a puppy and going through all the stages - even the chewing and potty training. I think there is some real bonding there. I would probably be ok either way really.

    thanks again for your input!
  • SangmortSangmort
    edited November -1
    Amber, I was in the exact same boat; couldn't decided between a Shika or a Kai, also, I might be living in an apartment for a while, so that was also a concern of mine.

    Peggy has told me [ & I think, really, this applies to all the nihon ken ] you don't need to have a house in order to properly home the nihon ken, so long as they are sufficiently exercised. Because all these dogs are working breeds, they must be exercised a lot in order to keep them happy & healthy. As Kyla said, 2-3 walks at least. Plus, romping in the yard is no substitute for walk, the yard is just an excellent bonus and a way for the dogs to outlet a lot of their energy.

    However, you sound a lot like me, you really want a dog that you can take on walks / runs with you. Personally, I try to walk at least twice a day anyways [ 2 miles each walk ] so that I myself can be healthy, I think a Shika or Kai would absolutely love this, and with a walking / running companion, I'd be more likely to go for a third or even forth walk. :) [ it gets kind of lonesome all by myself ;) ] So no, they are not "apartment dogs" in the sense that they can do days without a proper walk, but they will do fine in an apartment so long as they have enough of their energy spent through walking / running.

    I don't do marathons, but I really wanted a dog that could hike long distances [ about 15miles ] through rough terrain, which is also what led me back to the Kai & Shikoku.

    Also, I've heard from Katja & Peggy, as well as some of the other forum members, that while Shikoku can be super energetic outside the home, they tend to calm down whilst they're inside. I'm not too sure about Kai in this aspect.

    Ultimately, I personally ended up decided I would like to be owned by a Shikoku first simply because I fell in love with them first. :)~
  • baantonbaanton
    edited November -1
    I can tell you Josephine (Kai) has tireless energy, and seemed to be that way from a very young age. Example: When she was about 8-9 months, we took a 6 mile bike ride (fall in MN so it was a nice cool day-- maybe 50 degrees or less). She got going (about a "trot" or "canter" pace, if she was a horse) and I think did not hardly stop or waiver the entire time (except for one brief foray into the woods at the side of the bike trail when she scared up a partridge. I was amazed!

    I think a Kai is a very nice size dog, for apartment living, etc. Agree that a Kai (or any dog for that matter) would need to have a nice long walk, ability to exercise, 3-4 times per day...
  • asiaasia
    edited November -1
    Thanks both!

    I fell in love with the Kai first, but the Shikoku definitely is a wonderfully gorgeous animal as well! I just want to choose the best dog for me and for them. It's such a hard decision, especially since I will probably be an apartment dweller for a while longer, and yet I want a dog who is hardy and can withstand backpacking and 3 to 4 mile jogs or more. I was so excited to find the american Kai Ken website because the Kai seemed to really fit. However, after reading more, I was getting the impression the Shikoku were a bit more relaxed inside (as you mentioned Osy).

    Baanton, the size was something I liked about the Kai as well. They seemed big enough for the activities I like, but small enough they wouldn't feel really cramped in an apartment (with proper exercise of course).

    Osy - It was the loneliness that really lead me to start looking for a dog. I grew up in a large family on a farm, so I always had people around. And then college dorms full of people - after college I had room-mates. Now, I am at a spot where I can settle into a place of my own, once this lease is up. But I hate being completely by myself, and I feel dog envy every time I go walking/running and see everyone with their dogs. It was the worst during the half marathon! Seriously, that's a long trip by yourself!
  • HeidiHeidi
    edited November -1
    For what it's worth, Rakka is usually sleeping if she's indoors, UNLESS she's bored from not having sufficient exercise. Then she's going around to all the other pets and people bugging them, making whiney/growly bear noises and trying to gnaw and molest everyone.

    So you want a dog who is super lovey? Rakka loves to be pet so much that she squeals with delight when she meets a stranger who wants to pet her.
  • HeidiHeidi
    edited November -1
    Oh yeah, on the grooming/bathing thing, Rakka is the cleanest dog I have ever met. She cleans herself off when necessary, but most of the time, the dirt just falls off her. I could probably get away with never grooming or bathing her at all, with the exception of the bi-annual coat-blowing, in which case I brush her quite frequently with a grooming rake to limit the amount of fur I inhale. Even after she gets into the most disgusting stuff (like falling halfway into the septic tank - yes, this actually happened) a thorough rinse has her back to her shiny, odourless self.
  • asiaasia
    edited November -1
    Heidi, that is nice to know! I don't necessarily need a super lovey dog - i have a bit of a cat personality myself (as in sometimes I'm loving and sometimes I want lots of space) - but a dog who wants to cuddle occasionally would be great :)
  • masamasa
    edited November -1
    I agree with [Sangmort] completely. I dont think you should worry about it being suitable for an apartment or not based on the amount of excercise a dog needs. I think you should take them out on at least 2 long walks whether you have a fenced yard or live in an apartment(as well as some sort of mental work out).. but that probably wont be a problem for you if you can run 13 miles... haha... I think it just depends on the puppy you choose. All dogs are different even within the same breed..


    If you live in an apartment complex with a work out room like me, take your dog down there with you and put him on the treadmill.. I usually put them on there for around 20-30 mins each and sometimes if they're not up for it, they'll let me know by jumping off, but when they are on it, they seem to be enjoying it...

    Kobe as a puppy watching Milo work out...
    image


    image


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  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    edited November -1
    Peggy would be an excellent resource to compare and contrast the 2 breeds as she owns a Kai and has many Shikoku. I agree with Heidi's description of Rakka for Shikoku in general. Kuma is really, really quiet inside. He does love attention but he is quiet about asking for pets (unlike some breeds that keep being very insistent on you petting them). So if he wants to be petted, he usually comes up and sits next to me with he back to me. That is his signal for petting. But if you don't feel like petting him, he just walks away and lays down. Outside he could go on a walk for as long as you want to walk (or run). I will get tired long before he will.

    Also, cannot speak to Kai, but Shikoku have very little smell (not much "doggy odor") and are very clean and hygenic.
  • asiaasia
    edited November -1
    Masa - that's amazing! I have heard of the treadmill workouts, but have never actually seen it!

    Edgewood - Thanks! I have heard the same regarding the Kai in relation to the lack of odor. It's another trait which drew me to the Nihon Ken. I have heard a bit more about Peggy recently, but does anyone know contact info? I would love to talk to her!
  • miketmiket
    edited November -1
    Amber, I am in the EXACT same boat as you right now and ideally considering the same breeds. I was also struggling between puppy / rescue, but I think I ultimately go with a rescue rescue (which kind of eliminates the shikoku) since I can't make it home for lunch everyday to let a puppy out.

    As a side note, my girlfriend has actually decided (suprisingly with no coersing from my end) that she won't have as much time to spend with a dog as I will and that I'll be doing all the 'work' so I should choose the breed as long as she just gets to enjoy the dog in her spare time. You know what that means....nihon-ken, here I come!!!
    Cheers
    Mike
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    edited November -1
    Peggy's email address is listed on the www.shikokudog.com. Unfortunately the main website link to her kennel is down right now.
  • asiaasia
    edited November -1
    "nihon-ken, here I come!!!" - Congrats!
  • asiaasia
    edited November -1
    Thanks Kris!
  • KenshiKenshi
    edited November -1
    Peggy's email address is, in fact, info@shikokudog.com. I just exchanged some mail with her this morning, so it's just the website that is down. She said she's expecting a litter in December and is planning a breeding next summer.
  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    edited November -1
    Great news Mike!!!!
  • miketmiket
    edited November -1
    Thanks Dave, I'm pretty pumped. And now the search REALLY begins!!
  • SangmortSangmort
    edited November -1
    That is good news Mike :) ~
  • Honey's momHoney's mom
    edited November -1
    Mike, what area are you in? I figured maybe we can help keep an eye out for any Nihon Ken in your area???? idk, just a thought.
  • ShikokuSpiritShikokuSpirit
    edited November -1
    I agree that it doesn't matter where you house your dog, in an apartment or house. So long as that dog has all of his or her required needs fullfilled. Kei-kun loves to romp around outside and sometimes in the house <--- until I ignore him. Then he usually just lays around all chill or maybe finds a toy or chew to work on. The only thing is that he will sometimes go over to harass the cats or pester Lynx. He's pretty quiet inside, he is vocal at times outside though. If you have apartment living, I would recommend a patio or somewhere inside where sunlight filters in as a potiential sun-bathing spot. Dogs like to do this.

    ------

    Congrats Mike! See, all it took was some (silent) persisting and patience -grins-. I look forward to your Kai ken! Your girlfriend is doing med school, correct? I wish her well with that.
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    edited November -1
    " He's pretty quiet inside, he is vocal at times outside though" - Ditto Corina's comment about my Shikoku too. Kuma is relatively quiet in the yard, unless I am outside of the yard fence and he knows it. Then use uses a variety of vocalizations from high pitched yipping to an outright coyote howl. I do not think that he does it when I am gone (but cannot be certain) -- I think it is more that he wants my attention so he can come along with me (outside the fenced yard).
  • miketmiket
    edited November -1
    Thanks, and yes, she's in her fourth year of med school. It's a pretty hectic time for her, she's going through the application process for residency (where you choose your specialty) for the next month or so. This equals one stressed out lady and one bored boy that hides from said stress case ;)

    I still don't which breed I'll end up with...shiba, kai, shikoku, misc mutt. Though I'm a little biased towards a nihon-ken, the reality is that it'll boil down to a dog that is the right fit. The last thing I need is to bring in a dog with a tonne of baggage, just cuz i'm (slightly...ok, totally!!) obsessed with that paticular breed. That may well push said stress case over her breaking point!! Ah, life with a med student...at least there are only 5 to 7 more yrs of this to go....
  • asiaasia
    edited November -1
    5 to 7 years really isn't that long... ;-) Best wishes! i think it's amazing she's going through with it; though from my experiences with my friends who have taken that direction - I can say I feel your pain...
  • miketmiket
    edited November -1
    Yeah, the first 3 years went by pretty quickly, but the worst is yet to come...I know I'm not cut out for that kind of commitment (to school not her!), but she's one of those anal perfectionist over achiever types so its a good career choice for her. I'll pass on the wishes!
    Cheers
  • HeidiHeidi
    edited November -1
    I consistently remind my doctor that I would never ever ever in a million years want his job. Too much school, too much stress, and too much dealing with people's gross bodies.
  • NekopanNekopan
    edited November -1
    Exactly why I will never be a doctor, Heidi. I'll stick with pharmacy. There's a counter between me and the sick person. :)
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