It's interesting how the first two photos of Luytiy appear to be from different dogs. In the first one he gives the impression of being much lighter than in the second. It's impressive how thick his arms are! Masha is loosing her puppy look pretty fast.
I don't think they're too thin. I think Luytiy is just fine like that. A dog with a chest like that can't be thin. I can't see Masha properly because she's lying down, but I'm sure she's fine.
I can see how someone would think Luytiy was thin in the first pics, the coat coloration makes it sort of look like his hips poking from his side and his waist sucking in.
But you can never tell by a picture is a hairy dog is thin, or fat. The best way is in person, feeling the dogs body and contours, to determine if it needs to gain weight or not.
To Beth's point... That's the thing, if you feel Masha you can't feel her ribs, yet she does look a bit thin at times - i think it's hard to tell on her due to her ridiculous amount of extra skin.
As for L, he feels like our Shika, but maybe that is thin for a CO... I dunno. (
Big L might be a little thinner than him, but as long as he is a good weight and healthy and happy otherwise I wouldn't worry too much. I think keeping him a little thinner is a good thing for his bones/joints.
I agree with Beth, as long as the "Feel" good I wouldn't worry too much.
I prefer Luytiy to Archi, by a few miles :-) Archi has this droopy look to him. Luytiy looks much livelier. Archi does seem a bit heavier than Luytiy, but that might come form the puffier coat.
To me, the smaller nihon ken's (small, medium) look better a bit thin, most naturally regulate their calorie intake anyway. Or at least mine do. So, I'm not good for comparing how other non-spitz breeds ought to look!
I thought body condition scoring for dogs was breed-independent. If your Shika are healthy and Big L is similar to them, then I'd have to assume he's healthy as well.
Not even I think Masha looks thin!!! That's saying alot. She's def in that awkward stage tho, so the last pic is cracking me up a bit. As for Luytiy, it's tough to say. He looks thin in the first pic, but it could be the change in color. In the second pic, he looks fine.
I don't think you can really compare Archi and Luytiy. Archi isn't nearly as muscular or toned as Luytiy. Nor is he as tall. It's like looking at a woman who is 5'4 and 120lbs vs a woman who is 5'8" and 120lbs. I agree with Rui, Luytiy is a FAR better looking dog than Archi.
Both Luytiy and Masha look fine as far as weight goes. They are both beautiful dogs! I agree that as long as you and Jen (as responsible dog owners and knowledgeable individuals) feel that your dogs are healthy and your vet does as well, then they are fine.
Thanx again guys! I agree, I just wanted a 2nd opinion. The issue comes from the comparison of Masha to her siblings....
Masha's bro, GVIDON FROL Esquire:
He is 5 months in that pic, they are 6 months old now.
He weighs 90lb now, Masha weighs 65lb. He eats 10 cups of food a day, Masha eats 8 cups. Masha has a very "dry" look to her (thin and less "typey") while GVIDON is very "wet" in looks (very "typey"). Masha's sisters are also very "wet", Masha is the "driest" of the litter... we want her to be more "wet" but I don't want to force it with food. I'm wondering if feeding more would help her be more "wet" tho.
It's a different breed for us too, so we are learning as we go.
Does Masha's siblings have the same availability to a huge expansive yard like she does? I'm sure her weight/fitness can be attributed to the many playpals and mobility she has in your compound.
Good point, she does run and play a lot. I can't speak for her brothers and sisters, but I'm sure she has more freedom than average. She goes non-stop too.
Hi Brad; I really don't know what this type of dog should look like or weigh in proportion to height, etc. I do know (just as parents of humans do) that most people tend to over-feed their furry loved ones because they love them so much, I guess. True to the ways of our mothers and grandmothers, we tend to feel food will solve all problems and demonstrate our love and caring.
I agree with many of the others -- Masha and Luytiy look just fabulous as best as can be gained from the pics. I'd also say, given the amount of energy and enthusiasm they each display in the videos, I'd guess you are right on with amount of food. And since Masha is growing still it likely will not hurt her to have that extra sweet potato treat daily because she is also so active.
We totally overfed our old dog, Joe, for a number of years (mixed breed, and we just didn't know how much food he should have and what was "to heavy"). It was really hard on his joints, and when we finally got the clue (from the vet brother-in-law from Portland who came to visit and saw Joe in the flesh) and cut back his food he trimmed down nicely, and... surprise, surprise... could jump in the car again with no trouble, etc. etc. Same thing happened with my daughter and her cats... at first she thought since they were such little kitties to begin she should feed amply. Then she had 3 "fat cats"... A little advice from her uncle on the proper amount of food trimmed them all down and they are very energetic, playful and not lacking in energy...
Having a gaurding dog is still new to us, so I am still a bit obsessed with the behavioral aspect of gaurding. So I tend to video Luytiy and Masha when they switch to protection/defensive modes.
I'm not interesting in capturing them in these modes if they are not natural. A lot of CO owners seem to enjoy agitating their dogs by tricking them into thinking they are a threat so they can see their reaction - I don't want to do this. I want Luytiy to trust me, seems like an act like that would confuse the dog and eventually lead to a trust issue.
We are having some work done on our fence, so we have had to keep most of the dogs inside while the contractors work on the fence because the dogs like to bark at them - and having Luytiy out there while they are working is too much of a risk. So Luytiy has been in the office with me where he can't see the construction.
At lunch time yesterday we let Luytiy out for a bathroom break and I figured it was a good opportunity to get Luytiy's reaction to a "threat" - a drastic change in his environment.
So, here is a video of Luytiy in almost full-on protection mode...
I would say he is like 75% here, when he is 100% in that mode he is basically out of control. One day I may get that on video, tho it will be a short one because I should really be getting him under control and not videoing him. LOL
The thing I find so interesting is his visible and audible "anger", he is clearly pissed. He grumbles as he runs into view in the video, this is his grumble he makes before he barks... when he does this in the house it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up every time. He's an intimidating dude.
During his guarding, seeing that things make him angry... would you say he gets frustrated at the things he's guarding against? When I've seen dogs become frustrated, sometimes theres that misplaced aggressive type stuff.. do you ever see that in CO's? Are they trained to guard the way they do?
Interesting Brad. I think you're right, he does look pissed to me. It is really interesting how he takes a short break from the display to mark a bush. Like he's reinforcing his anger in some way.
Also, he is enormous! I mean HUGE! It is beautiful to see him move so energetically like that.
Jen - I know what you mean about the frustration thing. We see that a lot w/ Ahi and Kona, but we have only experienced one very small situation like that with Luytiy and it was between Luytiy and Masha. Masha is young and so she frustrates easily and will misdirect her frustration. It's very common for younger dogs to do that. That is why Ahi and Luytiy are rarely together, Ahi does that a lot.
Having said that, L is maturing and really starting to level out, he is not over-the-top like he was 6 months ago. If you notice in the video he basically just ignores the other dogs.
He was really tested the other day, he was outside and the fence people came to the house, and drove right past the fence to the back of the property. One of them got out to of their truck and walked up to the back of the fence. ALL the dogs were outside at that time (the fence people were supposed to call before that came so we could get the dogs in)... Most of the dogs barked at them but Luytiy just got up on his hind legs, leaning on the fence (eye level with the fence guys) and watched them. He didn't bark, just watched. Six months ago he would have been going crazy trying to jump out of the fence... so he is mellowing out some.
COs are natural guardians, it takes no training to get them to guard. It does take training to get them NOT to guard tho. ) Most LGDs are natural guardians and do not require any training to get them to guard their property and family (flock). 10k+ years of selection has made guarding a pretty strong personality trait in LGDs.
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Dave - I think he was running around more in this video because there was no real threat, or he couldn't locate the threat. He had been crated most of the day and didn't see what was going on, so when he came out he went into "protection mode" due to the change in his environment (the equipment outside the fence that wasn't there before)... but there was no real threat so he was just kinda running around looking for anything that may be a threat. If you notice he stops to smell the air... well come to find out, after I shot this video, there was someone in the truck next to the fence eating lunch... so he knew someone was there but couldn't locate them.
Yea, L is becoming a beats, he is really filling out now. Check out this pic, look at his legs:
Comments
And Masha is just too cute! I love how dark she is getting!
Masha is starting to look more and more like a dog and no longer like a puppy. That's amazing how fast she's grown.
The dogs look good as always. Masha is big, look at those paws.
In the first one he gives the impression of being much lighter than in the second. It's impressive how thick his arms are!
Masha is loosing her puppy look pretty fast.
how are they at 'work'?
Yes, all the snow is gone, we got just a bit yesterday and it's gone now too. The high desert is a strange place to live.
So, I have been told that Masha and Luytiy look a bit thin in these pics. What do you guys think?
We want to keep their weight down since they are large breeds that are still growing, but we don't want them to be to thin either.
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I think Luytiy is just fine like that. A dog with a chest like that can't be thin.
I can't see Masha properly because she's lying down, but I'm sure she's fine.
I think they look fantastic.
But you can never tell by a picture is a hairy dog is thin, or fat. The best way is in person, feeling the dogs body and contours, to determine if it needs to gain weight or not.
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Here is Mash, standing, from last weekend:
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Here is a CO around the same age as L, in a similar position - for comparison...
*Archi is one of my favorite COs.
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So looking at Archi and comparing to Luytiy, L looks (maybe) a bit thinner. What do you think?
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As for L, he feels like our Shika, but maybe that is thin for a CO... I dunno.
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Big L might be a little thinner than him, but as long as he is a good weight and healthy and happy otherwise I wouldn't worry too much. I think keeping him a little thinner is a good thing for his bones/joints.
I agree with Beth, as long as the "Feel" good I wouldn't worry too much.
Archi has more of a heavy overall look to him, bigger 'mane' and thicker legs. His coat looks a tad bit fluffier as well
Archi does seem a bit heavier than Luytiy, but that might come form the puffier coat.
The standing photo of Masha looks fine to me.
I thought body condition scoring for dogs was breed-independent. If your Shika are healthy and Big L is similar to them, then I'd have to assume he's healthy as well.
As for Luytiy, it's tough to say. He looks thin in the first pic, but it could be the change in color. In the second pic, he looks fine.
I don't think you can really compare Archi and Luytiy. Archi isn't nearly as muscular or toned as Luytiy. Nor is he as tall. It's like looking at a woman who is 5'4 and 120lbs vs a woman who is 5'8" and 120lbs. I agree with Rui, Luytiy is a FAR better looking dog than Archi.
Masha's bro, GVIDON FROL Esquire:
He is 5 months in that pic, they are 6 months old now.
He weighs 90lb now, Masha weighs 65lb. He eats 10 cups of food a day, Masha eats 8 cups. Masha has a very "dry" look to her (thin and less "typey") while GVIDON is very "wet" in looks (very "typey"). Masha's sisters are also very "wet", Masha is the "driest" of the litter... we want her to be more "wet" but I don't want to force it with food. I'm wondering if feeding more would help her be more "wet" tho.
It's a different breed for us too, so we are learning as we go.
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I would say that Masha is thinner than the rest of her siblings, but she still looks fine to me FWIW. :P
Jesse
The girlie looks great dry as she may be. I think her brother is a bit too chubby.
I think we may try some sweet potato too.
THANX!
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I agree with many of the others -- Masha and Luytiy look just fabulous as best as can be gained from the pics. I'd also say, given the amount of energy and enthusiasm they each display in the videos, I'd guess you are right on with amount of food. And since Masha is growing still it likely will not hurt her to have that extra sweet potato treat daily because she is also so active.
We totally overfed our old dog, Joe, for a number of years (mixed breed, and we just didn't know how much food he should have and what was "to heavy"). It was really hard on his joints, and when we finally got the clue (from the vet brother-in-law from Portland who came to visit and saw Joe in the flesh) and cut back his food he trimmed down nicely, and... surprise, surprise... could jump in the car again with no trouble, etc. etc. Same thing happened with my daughter and her cats... at first she thought since they were such little kitties to begin she should feed amply. Then she had 3 "fat cats"... A little advice from her uncle on the proper amount of food trimmed them all down and they are very energetic, playful and not lacking in energy...
I'm not interesting in capturing them in these modes if they are not natural. A lot of CO owners seem to enjoy agitating their dogs by tricking them into thinking they are a threat so they can see their reaction - I don't want to do this. I want Luytiy to trust me, seems like an act like that would confuse the dog and eventually lead to a trust issue.
We are having some work done on our fence, so we have had to keep most of the dogs inside while the contractors work on the fence because the dogs like to bark at them - and having Luytiy out there while they are working is too much of a risk. So Luytiy has been in the office with me where he can't see the construction.
At lunch time yesterday we let Luytiy out for a bathroom break and I figured it was a good opportunity to get Luytiy's reaction to a "threat" - a drastic change in his environment.
So, here is a video of Luytiy in almost full-on protection mode...
I would say he is like 75% here, when he is 100% in that mode he is basically out of control. One day I may get that on video, tho it will be a short one because I should really be getting him under control and not videoing him. LOL
The thing I find so interesting is his visible and audible "anger", he is clearly pissed. He grumbles as he runs into view in the video, this is his grumble he makes before he barks... when he does this in the house it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up every time. He's an intimidating dude.
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During his guarding, seeing that things make him angry... would you say he gets frustrated at the things he's guarding against? When I've seen dogs become frustrated, sometimes theres that misplaced aggressive type stuff.. do you ever see that in CO's? Are they trained to guard the way they do?
Their bred-in purpose really intrigues me.
Also, he is enormous! I mean HUGE! It is beautiful to see him move so energetically like that.
Having said that, L is maturing and really starting to level out, he is not over-the-top like he was 6 months ago. If you notice in the video he basically just ignores the other dogs.
He was really tested the other day, he was outside and the fence people came to the house, and drove right past the fence to the back of the property. One of them got out to of their truck and walked up to the back of the fence. ALL the dogs were outside at that time (the fence people were supposed to call before that came so we could get the dogs in)... Most of the dogs barked at them but Luytiy just got up on his hind legs, leaning on the fence (eye level with the fence guys) and watched them. He didn't bark, just watched. Six months ago he would have been going crazy trying to jump out of the fence... so he is mellowing out some.
COs are natural guardians, it takes no training to get them to guard. It does take training to get them NOT to guard tho.
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Dave - I think he was running around more in this video because there was no real threat, or he couldn't locate the threat. He had been crated most of the day and didn't see what was going on, so when he came out he went into "protection mode" due to the change in his environment (the equipment outside the fence that wasn't there before)... but there was no real threat so he was just kinda running around looking for anything that may be a threat. If you notice he stops to smell the air... well come to find out, after I shot this video, there was someone in the truck next to the fence eating lunch... so he knew someone was there but couldn't locate them.
Yea, L is becoming a beats, he is really filling out now. Check out this pic, look at his legs:
His chest and neck are really thick now too:
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