awsome. I'm in Tampa. One of the SC breeders said she was going to be in Orlando that weekend to visit her daughters. I wanted to meet up with her. I guess I'll be going there as well :)
I got my Shiba Inu (also named Ninja) from Right Puppy Kennel (http://www.rightpuppykennel.com/) in Salisbury NC about 3 weeks ago. Kevin and his daughter run it and they breed Shibas and Tamaskan Wolfdogs. He's in the process of building a new facility which is very nice. He's got a great spread of land out in the country.
I've been very happy with my puppy, they were very professional to deal with and have some beautiful dogs. They do their own vaccinations as well which I wasn't too sure about, but Ninja's been very healthy since we picked him up, no intestinal issues at all. The vet said he looked great when we took him in for his checkup.
I really want a Tamaskan! just to clarify: They aren't wolfdogs at all. They were bred in Finland or something to have a fully pure 100% domesticated dog (first imports to the USA was in 2004.) They just look a lot like wolves... Which imho is awesome!
The waiting list is long though. I have no diea how much they would cost too because they are still farely new. I live in a townhouse with a fenced backyard ad unfortuantly, I don't think that's big enough for them.... I plan on moving out next year though. Putting myself on the waiting list will let me save up my pennies too :)
I was browsing that site a few weeks ago. I have no experience with them or anything, but that just didn't seem right to me. They have 16 litters of puppies right now, and are breeding cream Shibas, as well as owning a black and tan that doesn't hold up to the standard.
And they also have a link to Next Day Pets on their home page.
I find it great that they have a breeder dog from Frerose kennels ( the kennel with the #1 shibas in the US ), but they're overbreeding him to way too many dogs at once ( and he is their only Champion dog, but I doubt they showed him, the owners of Frerose probably did ). He has 4 litters of puppies right now ( Their cream breeder also has 4 litters right now ). There's nothing diverse about their breeding program.
And i'm kind of surprised that the Cream came from IWS, and was able to breed. :0
I have found the Frerose name in a couple puppy mill shiba pedigrees and in the pedigrees of pretty shady looking on-line breeders as well, but of course many dogs from very nice kennels are unknowingly and knowingly sold into the wrong situation and turn into breeding dogs, so it isn't just them. Who knows how that dog ended up like this. Very unfortunate they consider that their "shiba business", like a car business or something.
I knew I remembered something about the name... I checked the site finally and realized they were in the "bad tamaskan breeders" list.. Them and Ice Wind Farms!
That site scares me, from what this forum has taught me. So does the site of the breeder I got Sake from...but I didn't know how bad it was until I learned a thing or two from here.
^^ Same here. I got my Akita from a certain breeder as well. I do not want to give any info on which one because I'm kinda embarrassed to say She is a little smaller and kinda weird looking as opposed to other Akitas but I love her just the same. The only problem with her is her teeth (which I don't think it is hereditary).
Which is why I want to choose my Shiba "correctly" this time
Fortunately, that Tamaskan scandal drove the breed from Ice Winds. Unfortunately, that put shiba production into hyper-drive.
That is the great thing about this forum, you learn so much - and like Brad said, at times it can be humbling - but it makes us better, more capable of caring for the dogs we have now. I think Ichi and Ninja are cute pups in capable hands!
This forum has taught me so much - I thought I was a responsible dog owner before I joined, now I know how much more is involved. The good news is you are doing as much as possible on the front end of things - you'll find the one that fits perfectly.
It is humbling! I thought I had found a great breader, very responsive, answered all my questions, only had 1 male and 1 female Shiba so not many litters and/or breedings etc, etc. But she, like many of them, are just in it for the money and not the health and well being of the dogs.
I love my Sake to death and wouldn't trade her for anything, but it's sad that I thought I was doing a good thing by not going the puppy store route and pretty much ended in the same place.
I am glad I know that now, thanks to the forum.
And once we buy our house the rescue pup is next! I would really enjoy a rescue Akita... (hope, pray, hope, pray)...
About those MinShi's: (a response to my inquiry about them)
"ok, they are not mutts. if you research the designer dogs you will get a better understanding. a mutt is a dog of unknown lines. a designer dog is 2 akc breeds with akc pedigrees . we happen to have champion lines in both. so we do know something about each breed. we also have done the health clearances for each breed. also this is how a new breed is formed. if you look up alot of todays breeds you will see they can be from breeding a combo of 2 or more other breeds to make a new breed of dog. we have 3 min pins that we love (2 are neutered) and we also have shibas that we love, so we are going to see what the combination of the 2 breeds will produce. also i have a waiting list of people who want mini shibas. the demand is there or i would not have done this. i am keeping 1-3 of the puppies and will try to find homes for the others close by or to someone who will keep in touch with me. this way i can see how the pups are maturing and what kind of temperments, colors, etc. will happen. breeding dogs is an art, and i know there are many people out there that will judge before they know the facts."
My response will probably get me into a battle I'm really not prepared for but it was:
"I really didn't mean to offend you, I just don't understand the need for more dogs. I consider my research to be hours spent in shelters and rescue work with unwanted shiba inus and shiba inu mixes. I didn't use the word 'mutt' as a term of disparagement, rather to mean that they are not bred to a standard, not registrable nor are they purebred. Designer breeds are simply mixed breeds, mixed breeds are called mutts for as long as I've been around them. Actually the wording on your website might confuse a lot of people, seeing as the parents of the "MinShis" or whatever are AKC, they might think they can register a 'designer' dog. What kind of health testing has been done? Why these two breeds? But based on my field experience in rescue work, I can't understand why there would be a need to create another breed of dog unless they had a working ability because thousands of mixed breed and purebred dogs are dying every day. In fact my local shelter put down a 4 year old male 'puggle' on Monday, completely unloved and uncared for, I tried to reach out to rescues, tried to find him a dogless home... I can't fathom why more designer dogs need to be created and more unwanted dogs procreated in a world where Frankie had to die.
And the mame shibas - if they are not to standard, what is the purpose of them besides their being in demand?
I just now realize that you are correct, there is a lot I do not know about the 'art' of breeding, and I'm really glad I don't know these things, it keeps my rescue work in perspective. "
I probably should have kept my mouth shut, but I'm hormonal and I'm pissed and more than that, I feel let down and utterly ashamed for ever helping adult dogs from that kennel out.
Did I miss that in genetics 101? I always thought the purpose of breeding (in any living thing) was to improve the species (or breed in this case) by selecting the strongest, most intelligent, hardiest male and breeding with a female of similar stature.
Or did I misinterpret that and it really means breed what people will buy, even if it is unhealthy, un-educatable, unnecessary, and unpredictable? Hmm. I must go home now and pull out my old genetics lecture notes and see if I missed that.
I'd love to drive over to NJ and give this girl a piece of my mind.
Because anyone who speaks so highly of mixed designer dog breeds seriously should not be allowed to breed anything. Creating a breed? Shes ruining two breeds that are fine just the way they are.
I'm totally hijacking, and I dont' mean to, I'm sorry... because now I'm ranting.. but its reinforcement that this is NOT a reputable breeder!
Anyway, since I feel that I've opened a can of definite worms here, I asked a friend in shiba rescue what she thought and she actually said it might not be such a bad thing because mixed dogs have better health. I don't know, maybe I'm the weird one?
I'm not going to hijack anymore! Lets get back to helping ZINJA!
What makes you think that your emotion-filled post isn't? It shows the view of a rescuer's perspective on intentional mixed breeds/mutts. All the stuff you guys have said that is fueled with emotion not only reveals your passion for Shibas but for other dogs as well.
It's this passion that makes many of us newcomers shy away from puppy mills and backyard breeders. I, for one, always welcome your perspective .
Jen, I think your friend has a point. Mixed breeds *can* be healthier as you are increasing the genetic diversity. They can also end up with the bad qualities of both breeds. But that's besides the point. I'm all for mixing breeds if its for the right reasons. If the breeder in question was doing this specifically to improve health or temperament (and not to "see how it turns out"), then I'd be behind it. From the impression I have, it seems purely profit motivated. And that, specifically, is the problem.
In a discussion in another thread, brad posted a photo of a Shikoku that looks very different from the breed standard that we are used to seeing. Basically that dog was about three generations of selectively breeding for working traits instead of the tail, coloring, and markings of the conformance standard.
I don't know if every breed is like this, but what I get from that is that the issue of genetic defects being bred into the breeds is not that big of a deal - if you can take a centuries-old breed from a very isolated country like Japan and lose the recognizable traits within a handful of generations, then the problems the more exotic AKC breeds have with their pointy heads, scrunched faces, long legs, etc are NOT the kind of thing that makes these dog breeds irretrievably unhealthy. The solution is just for breeders to constantly work to breed out the problems and adjust the conformance spec if needed.
It also serves to convince me that mutts are not automatically more healthy or smarter than bred dogs.
ok didn't read the whole thread but I got my shiba roxy from shogun kennels in SC they're a good breeder, very good tempered dogs, she'll let you visit them before making a desicion before desiding, she's a very nice lady, and we're accually thinking about getting another shiba from her....
Comments
Central Florida Kennel Club, Inc.
Orlando FL, Saturday, December 13, 2008 on Colonial Drive.
Looks like there will be a few shiba & akita there. I think Lakeland also has some Akita Shows coming up. ~
-Joe
-Joe
I'm super stoked to see some Shiba
I've been very happy with my puppy, they were very professional to deal with and have some beautiful dogs. They do their own vaccinations as well which I wasn't too sure about, but Ninja's been very healthy since we picked him up, no intestinal issues at all. The vet said he looked great when we took him in for his checkup.
The waiting list is long though. I have no diea how much they would cost too because they are still farely new. I live in a townhouse with a fenced backyard ad unfortuantly, I don't think that's big enough for them.... I plan on moving out next year though. Putting myself on the waiting list will let me save up my pennies too :)
Thanks for the insight!
-joe
And they also have a link to Next Day Pets on their home page.
And i'm kind of surprised that the Cream came from IWS, and was able to breed. :0
http://www.tamaskan-dog.us/Breeders List/breeders.htm
Which is why I want to choose my Shiba "correctly" this time
-Joe
Jesse
That is the great thing about this forum, you learn so much - and like Brad said, at times it can be humbling - but it makes us better, more capable of caring for the dogs we have now. I think Ichi and Ninja are cute pups in capable hands!
I love my Sake to death and wouldn't trade her for anything, but it's sad that I thought I was doing a good thing by not going the puppy store route and pretty much ended in the same place.
I am glad I know that now, thanks to the forum.
And once we buy our house the rescue pup is next! I would really enjoy a rescue Akita... (hope, pray, hope, pray)...
"ok, they are not mutts. if you research the designer dogs you will get a better understanding. a mutt is a dog of unknown lines. a designer dog is 2 akc breeds with akc pedigrees . we happen to have champion lines in both. so we do know something about each breed. we also have done the health clearances for each breed. also this is how a new breed is formed. if you look up alot of todays breeds you will see they can be from breeding a combo of 2 or more other breeds to make a new breed of dog. we have 3 min pins that we love (2 are neutered) and we also have shibas that we love, so we are going to see what the combination of the 2 breeds will produce. also i have a waiting list of people who want mini shibas. the demand is there or i would not have done this. i am keeping 1-3 of the puppies and will try to find homes for the others close by or to someone who will keep in touch with me. this way i can see how the pups are maturing and what kind of temperments, colors, etc. will happen. breeding dogs is an art, and i know there are many people out there that will judge before they know the facts."
My response will probably get me into a battle I'm really not prepared for but it was:
"I really didn't mean to offend you, I just don't understand the need for more dogs. I consider my research to be hours spent in shelters and rescue work with unwanted shiba inus and shiba inu mixes. I didn't use the word 'mutt' as a term of disparagement, rather to mean that they are not bred to a standard, not registrable nor are they purebred. Designer breeds are simply mixed breeds, mixed breeds are called mutts for as long as I've been around them. Actually the wording on your website might confuse a lot of people, seeing as the parents of the "MinShis" or whatever are AKC, they might think they can register a 'designer' dog. What kind of health testing has been done? Why these two breeds?
But based on my field experience in rescue work, I can't understand why there would be a need to create another breed of dog unless they had a working ability because thousands of mixed breed and purebred dogs are dying every day. In fact my local shelter put down a 4 year old male 'puggle' on Monday, completely unloved and uncared for, I tried to reach out to rescues, tried to find him a dogless home... I can't fathom why more designer dogs need to be created and more unwanted dogs procreated in a world where Frankie had to die.
And the mame shibas - if they are not to standard, what is the purpose of them besides their being in demand?
I just now realize that you are correct, there is a lot I do not know about the 'art' of breeding, and I'm really glad I don't know these things, it keeps my rescue work in perspective. "
I probably should have kept my mouth shut, but I'm hormonal and I'm pissed and more than that, I feel let down and utterly ashamed for ever helping adult dogs from that kennel out.
Did I miss that in genetics 101? I always thought the purpose of breeding (in any living thing) was to improve the species (or breed in this case) by selecting the strongest, most intelligent, hardiest male and breeding with a female of similar stature.
Or did I misinterpret that and it really means breed what people will buy, even if it is unhealthy, un-educatable, unnecessary, and unpredictable? Hmm. I must go home now and pull out my old genetics lecture notes and see if I missed that.
Im with Rina *headdesk* - repeted many times.
Because anyone who speaks so highly of mixed designer dog breeds seriously should not be allowed to breed anything.
Creating a breed? Shes ruining two breeds that are fine just the way they are.
Anyway, since I feel that I've opened a can of definite worms here, I asked a friend in shiba rescue what she thought and she actually said it might not be such a bad thing because mixed dogs have better health. I don't know, maybe I'm the weird one?
I'm not going to hijack anymore! Lets get back to helping ZINJA!
What makes you think that your emotion-filled post isn't?
It's this passion that makes many of us newcomers shy away from puppy mills and backyard breeders. I, for one, always welcome your perspective
Thanks,
Jesse
Sorry for perpetuating the hijack.
I don't know if every breed is like this, but what I get from that is that the issue of genetic defects being bred into the breeds is not that big of a deal - if you can take a centuries-old breed from a very isolated country like Japan and lose the recognizable traits within a handful of generations, then the problems the more exotic AKC breeds have with their pointy heads, scrunched faces, long legs, etc are NOT the kind of thing that makes these dog breeds irretrievably unhealthy. The solution is just for breeders to constantly work to breed out the problems and adjust the conformance spec if needed.
It also serves to convince me that mutts are not automatically more healthy or smarter than bred dogs.