scandalous, right?! ~ after being called ignorant for both believing that there are enough breeds in existence for every task and expectation and assuming that using terms like 'designer breed' and 'bred for the demand' meant that $$ and not individual canine welfare was top priority - my ability and priorities of dog ownership were being called into question when this person had only met me for a brief 15 minutes to hand over a scared, pathetic looking dog in heat that hadn't been brushed in ages and who now to me seems like the ignorant one. It is sad when you feel more mature than a 50 year old woman and more educated than a breeder who boasts 15+ years of experience of love and tenderness for the business. So I thanked her for my crash course education on what a reputable breeder really means to me.
I'll forward the email to you if you want, its a fun read.
but then again, how mature am I for continuing to talk and rant about something I said I wouldnt! I'm just like shaking in anger and my neck is red and I need some ice cream. I am really sorry to go on and on about this. I have effectively severed the tie that made me sick to keep, so Lindsay! Feel free to add whatever! There is now no protection from me!
Jen you are best divesting yourself from that source....you really don't need to be tacked on to their situation given their practices and associated through their advertising. They tend to throw about the term "rescue" for their own means and profit. Establish yourself from a higher ground through more reputable sources like you have been doing through others.
Many breeders use the term "rescue" to garner sympathy of buyers who think the breeder is actually involved with rescue work when they are not.
Zinja please look at the NSCA list to find a breeder to speak with. I know not everyone is as responsive as they should be, but keep trucking and please look at the link on this forum on how to find a good breeder and then narrow your search from there. It will take some time. If a breeder is half way decent they will have limited breedings and truly have the improvement of the breed in mind. Search the OFA database also to cross check what they are doing in terms of health.
Heed the the tips provided so far on who to avoid.
I have used the NSCA website and some were pretty lousy and did not want to return my questions, namely Riverview, Fl cybershibas (girr, they were about 30 mins away) and showboat.
Vesta Hevia (riverview) imho got scared of my emails and stopped after the second. She also wanted my address to send me photos because she didn't have them on a comp. The first words I read after the initial email was, "I have an 11month old male for sale... call me if interested."
Riverview: after looking at their webpage, it looks like they have 4 different breeds specializing in, Finnish spitz, Buhund, Beagles, and Shiba. They advocate for debarking (well, if I had a kennel full of beagles...). I like their heated kennel runs and property from the pictures but all in all it's hard to tell unless you can actually visit and speak with them. They appear to only breed tri colour shibas (a very hard colour to get well enough to show, and also have some dogs that have titles).
Cybershibas: from the webpage, also appears to have interest in maintaining strict standards for their shibas (AKC and NIPPO). They report to only maintain a small number of dogs and their dogs have titles. Too bad that's not working out.
Showboat: Again, they have multiple breeds, Goldens, Japanese Chins, Shih tzus and Shibas. Looks like they show but some of the pups are advertised on sites like next day pets, etc. Very limited info on the site.
Lindsay the Crybershibas Joe is referring to doesn't seem to have a website (the one he is talking about is in Florida). The cybershiba you are referring to, I was very pleasantly surprised to discover are 10 minutes away from my house in Rhode Island. I didn't even know there were ANY reputable shiba breeder in my area. Nice to know.*
*Although I don't know if I could ever get another shiba. He would have way too much to live up to.
FWIW, showboat is Lucy's breeder and for those of you that follow Lucy updates, you should have a good picture of them. That's all I'll say publicly about that.
I would take what Dave is said into heavy consideration then.
Joe, have you considered Katja's kennel? Most of the forum members have got their Shikoku from her, she's a bit farther out but you could always have the pup shipped to you. If you don't mind doing so, I recommend shooting her an e-mail, she's super fast about responding and very easy to talk to. [ though I know she doesn't have any shiba pups available right now, her last three have gone to homes ]
I've forgotten how difficult the hunt for a reputable Shiba breeder was [ the other reason I decided to go Shika vs Shiba ]
Does she really ship pups? I have read some horrible stories about the plane rides.
I did not shoot an email out to her because I was afraid of the airfare, plus if there was some sort of customs agency involved.
I'm still waiting for Peggy's response (a week ago). If I am to go to Katja, I would try to get a Shikoku. Their more wild appearance and eager to please is imho irresistible... Plus I've had big dogs all my life... not including the Yorkie... She found us :P
Don't be deceived by the shikoku big dog proportion. The shikoku are smaller than they look. My Miko comes just up to my knee. She is only slightly bigger than my shiba was, and is considerably smaller than my APBT. She is under 40lbs.
Miko is also from Katja and I had her shipped. The cost of shipping was not bad, I think under $400 if I recall, and while I am sure it will not be the fondest memory of her life, she is a happy boundy young dog none the less. I would highly recommend Katja. I do not have a dog, from Peggy, but did correspond with her early in my search for a shikoku and she too was lovely.
If I am to go to Katja, I would try to get a Shikoku.
Just bare in mind because Shikoku are still so rare, they are considerably more expensive than Shiba, and that the waiting lists can last anywhere from 6 months to a year, or 2 years even. I'm not saying these are necessarily bad things, just something to keep in your thoughts. ~
I did think about the wait and the price and I would be happy to do so. It's never too late to start counting pennies and a new television is not needed right now
How does the transaction take place? How much does Katja's Shikokus normally cost? I never really felt comfortable asking breeders about the cost of their puppies.
One more question: how do you let a breeder down gently? For the past two weeks, I have been talking back and forth with a breeder. They have been super helpful and sent me many pictures. I was so set on getting a puppy, but I'm having second thoughts because she kinda made me feel uneasy today.
Feels like I'm dumping them... It's not you, it's me. lol
Hey Joe, I'm sure, at this point your cost questions should best be directed at Katja (or Peggy) themselves. As uncomfortable you are at asking them the price, they know it's a necessary question that they should to be the one to answer.
Taken from "Our Dogs" section at Katja's webpage.
"A deposit and a signed contract is required for one of our Shikoku puppies. We only breed these beautiful dogs if we have interest in puppies with a suitable home. A fenced yard is required. References can be given. "
Hope this helps and best of luck in your endeavor!
I wouldn't sweat "dumping" a breeder too much. As long as you are courteous and respectful.
Thank you for all the information and time you have taken to answer my questions. I have given it a good deal of thought and consideration, and have decided I am just not quite ready.
I would slightly amend Jessica's template to read:
"Thank you for all the information and time you have taken to answer my questions. I have given it a good deal of thought and consideration, and have decided I am just not quite ready for a dog from your kennel."
It's semantics at this point, but because you are in essence, telling the truth, just not letting them know that you actually are ready for a dog (just not from them).
I know it can be a bit uncomfortable. I would liken it more to walking out of a new car showroom after you've been sitting at a salesman's desk for an hour. It's awkward, and uncomfortable, but ultimately you are in the driver's seat and you have to be 100% comfortable. The reason you feel the way you do is a product of a well documented social psychological phenomenon knows as "reciprocation". This breeder has done something for you (taken time to correspond with you and show you pictures) and now you feel an obligation to respond in kind and purchase a puppy from them. The influence you feel from reciprocation is a social thing and it will feel like you are violating a social contract if you don't get a puppy from her, but you aren't. Getting a puppy is a business transaction and the social rules don't apply, even though you feel like they do. That's what high pressure sales pitches and marketing are all about.
So now that you have a crash course in marketing 101, you shouldn't feel bad anymore. Just tell her the truth...you aren't ready to make a decision but you will keep her in mind for when you are. There's nothing wrong with that.
Dave! Have you read "The Science of Influence" or "The Psychology Influence of Persuasion" ? Two excellent books, however, I think you just summarized about two or three chapters in a few sentences
Mind writing a sales pamphlet for me to take to work to give to my associates? lol
-
As the others said Joe, this is a puppy YOU will have to live with, and a breeder YOU will have to feel COMFORTABLE talking to if anything were to happen with the pup. [ let's face it, the breeder knows the pups' parents, and even the pup's grandparents, they'll know certain behaviors, health issues, possible difficulties, etc. etc. ] When you buy a pup, you don't just get a pup, you get the experience & knowledge, as well as the breeders willingness to help you throughout the lifetime of the puppy
If the breeder has lost you because SHE has done / said something wrong, it is her loss that she must learn from. Don't feel bad ~
LOL Osy. Yeah, I've read 4 or 5 books on the topic. My current favorite it "Predictably Irrational" but that one is less about marketing and more about human behavior. My dissertation is based pretty heavily on those ideas.
In regards to "dumping" a breeder nicely: I was interviewing breeders and I went to meet one of the dogs I had my heart set on (so I thought) just to see him and see how he was, not expecting to take him home or anything. I drove several hundred miles with my girl based on the info I was given, certain everything would be a good match. We got there, the breeder was not the person who met me, the person knew nothing about the dog, and the dog, although a beautiful boy, was scared to death and tried to bite us and growled, etc. There wasn't a good vibe basically and it was painfully obvious.
I didn't think it was necessary to contact the breeder from that point forward to even tell her, "No thank you, I am not interested," but I did tell the handler of the dog, "I don't think it's a good match, thank you for meeting me. I need some time to think." That seemed to be sufficient without ticking the breeder off.
Comments
after being called ignorant for both believing that there are enough breeds in existence for every task and expectation and assuming that using terms like 'designer breed' and 'bred for the demand' meant that $$ and not individual canine welfare was top priority - my ability and priorities of dog ownership were being called into question when this person had only met me for a brief 15 minutes to hand over a scared, pathetic looking dog in heat that hadn't been brushed in ages and who now to me seems like the ignorant one. It is sad when you feel more mature than a 50 year old woman and more educated than a breeder who boasts 15+ years of experience of love and tenderness for the business. So I thanked her for my crash course education on what a reputable breeder really means to me.
I'll forward the email to you if you want, its a fun read.
but then again, how mature am I for continuing to talk and rant about something I said I wouldnt! I'm just like shaking in anger and my neck is red and I need some ice cream. I am really sorry to go on and on about this. I have effectively severed the tie that made me sick to keep, so Lindsay! Feel free to add whatever! There is now no protection from me!
Jesse
Many breeders use the term "rescue" to garner sympathy of buyers who think the breeder is actually involved with rescue work when they are not.
Snf
Heed the the tips provided so far on who to avoid.
Snf
Vesta Hevia (riverview) imho got scared of my emails and stopped after the second. She also wanted my address to send me photos because she didn't have them on a comp. The first words I read after the initial email was, "I have an 11month old male for sale... call me if interested."
-Joe
Cybershibas: from the webpage, also appears to have interest in maintaining strict standards for their shibas (AKC and NIPPO). They report to only maintain a small number of dogs and their dogs have titles. Too bad that's not working out.
Showboat: Again, they have multiple breeds, Goldens, Japanese Chins, Shih tzus and Shibas. Looks like they show but some of the pups are advertised on sites like next day pets, etc. Very limited info on the site.
*Although I don't know if I could ever get another shiba. He would have way too much to live up to.
Thanks for the extra reinforcement.
-Joe
Joe, have you considered Katja's kennel? Most of the forum members have got their Shikoku from her, she's a bit farther out but you could always have the pup shipped to you. If you don't mind doing so, I recommend shooting her an e-mail, she's super fast about responding and very easy to talk to. [ though I know she doesn't have any shiba pups available right now, her last three have gone to homes ]
I've forgotten how difficult the hunt for a reputable Shiba breeder was
At least you have the forum for support
1. Google
2. Join forum
3. Brad told me about Katja
I was done :P
I did not shoot an email out to her because I was afraid of the airfare, plus if there was some sort of customs agency involved.
I'm still waiting for Peggy's response (a week ago). If I am to go to Katja, I would try to get a Shikoku. Their more wild appearance and eager to please is imho irresistible... Plus I've had big dogs all my life... not including the Yorkie... She found us :P
Thanks guys, I'll go talk to her.
-Joe
edit: sorry not Peggy, Kim bartow from GA
Miko is also from Katja and I had her shipped. The cost of shipping was not bad, I think under $400 if I recall, and while I am sure it will not be the fondest memory of her life, she is a happy boundy young dog none the less. I would highly recommend Katja. I do not have a dog, from Peggy, but did correspond with her early in my search for a shikoku and she too was lovely.
Just bare in mind because Shikoku are still so rare, they are considerably more expensive than Shiba, and that the waiting lists can last anywhere from 6 months to a year, or 2 years even. I'm not saying these are necessarily bad things, just something to keep in your thoughts.
How does the transaction take place? How much does Katja's Shikokus normally cost? I never really felt comfortable asking breeders about the cost of their puppies.
-Joe
Feels like I'm dumping them... It's not you, it's me. lol
-Joe
I'm sure, at this point your cost questions should best be directed at Katja (or Peggy) themselves. As uncomfortable you are at asking them the price, they know it's a necessary question that they should to be the one to answer.
Taken from "Our Dogs" section at Katja's webpage.
"A deposit and a signed contract is required for one of our Shikoku puppies. We only breed these beautiful dogs if we have interest in puppies with a suitable home. A fenced yard is required. References can be given. "
Hope this helps and best of luck in your endeavor!
Jesse
Thank you for all the information and time you have taken to answer my questions. I have given it a good deal of thought and consideration, and have decided I am just not quite ready.
Something like that works.
"Thank you for all the information and time you have taken to answer my questions. I have given it a good deal of thought and consideration, and have decided I am just not quite ready for a dog from your kennel."
It's semantics at this point, but because you are in essence, telling the truth, just not letting them know that you actually are ready for a dog (just not from them).
Jesse
So now that you have a crash course in marketing 101, you shouldn't feel bad anymore. Just tell her the truth...you aren't ready to make a decision but you will keep her in mind for when you are. There's nothing wrong with that.
I hope that helps, if only a little. :-)
Mind writing a sales pamphlet for me to take to work to give to my associates? lol
-
As the others said Joe, this is a puppy YOU will have to live with, and a breeder YOU will have to feel COMFORTABLE talking to if anything were to happen with the pup. [ let's face it, the breeder knows the pups' parents, and even the pup's grandparents, they'll know certain behaviors, health issues, possible difficulties, etc. etc. ] When you buy a pup, you don't just get a pup, you get the experience & knowledge, as well as the breeders willingness to help you throughout the lifetime of the puppy
If the breeder has lost you because SHE has done / said something wrong, it is her loss that she must learn from. Don't feel bad
I didn't think it was necessary to contact the breeder from that point forward to even tell her, "No thank you, I am not interested," but I did tell the handler of the dog, "I don't think it's a good match, thank you for meeting me. I need some time to think." That seemed to be sufficient without ticking the breeder off.