Hopeless?
When I first rescued my two Shibas, we had some bad dog -dog experiences. They were repeatedly attacked by loose dogs. My female dog still remained somewhat okay with some dogs, but seems to dislike smaller dogs. The male doesn't trust anyone. He doesn't know whether to bite a tuft of hair or run away. He is what I've been told is "globally fearful" and also "fear aggressive". The female seems to have some food issues around other living things, but it's managed okay in my household. I have always wanted to have more than two dogs, but I have not been able to find anyone who wants to work with us. I've been told that it's my dream, not theirs and also told that it's hopeless to have more than the two of them. It is hard to "give up" though... They will both be seven this year. I have more freedom now and would like to try to focus on this if I can. I am willing to drive pretty much anywhere if I can find someone who would be willing to immerse us into a socialization program. (they could use help with people too). Because of our bad experiences they have been "managed" into a lifestyle that's fairly exclusionary. While I have adjusted to living this way, I still yearn for more dogs and more social dogs. Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree? I would appreciate your viewpoints.
Comments
How old were they during these attacks by loose dogs?
When was the last time they were exposed to other dogs?
Have they ever have positive dog to dog experiences outside from one another?
I'm assuming all the bad experiences were from strange dogs and not dogs they knew?
You mentioned the female is somewhat "okay" with some dogs. What do you mean? Is she okay loose with them as long as they leave her alone? Or does she interact with them? Is she okay with them interacting with her?
With the male, what is his reaction? Does he just tense and freeze up? Does he growl, snarl, snap or lunge?
Both dogs: Are they able to cope with the common doggie introduction? Or do they react in a certain matter right away?
I don't want to get your hopes up but I don't want to let them down either. Dogs are pretty good about "bouncing" back. Dogs are also pretty set in their ways though if something is left alone for so long. It just depends. At this point, I don't consider it nesscessary for them to tolerate strange dogs. Considering their age and bad experiences with them. However, after proper conditioning, it may be possible for you to introduce another dog into your home.
Worse case senario, you'd just have to accept that your dogs won't ever get along with other dogs. You don't know though, unless you try, right? Persistence generally pays off and if there's that slim chance that it doesn't...at least you feel good because you gave it your all.
I am the owner of Ninja, the dog LJ mentioned. Ninja is fearful of people and is fearful/reactive towards new dogs. I was lucky enough to find a behaviorist who also owns a doggie daycare. But before finding my current behaviorist,I went through 3 other trainers/behaviorists. I started working on Ninja's issues when he was about 6 months old (when we really noticed his fear with other dogs and people). He is now about 20 months and has improved quite a bit, but it took a lot of time and patience.
When dealing with fearful dogs, it often ends up taking one step forward and 3 steps back. It is a long process as you cannot force a fearful dog to do something too fast, otherwise they shut down. It will be important to find out what triggers their bad reactions and figure out at what point they pass their threshold (the point when they are no longer able to focus or perform commands). The reason it is important to find out their threshold is so that you can prevent them from passing it and associate good things with the things they have issues with.
For example. When I first starting training with Ninja, he couldn't be within 15-20 feet from a dog without growling, snarling, hackles up, lashing out, the works. So I marked 20 feet as passing his threshold. For conditioning, I would always bring treats on our walks, we usually see at least one dog on a walk. So when we were 30-40 feet away and I saw that he saw the other dog, but didn't react yet, I would say "Watch Me" (command to focus on me) and then I would click and treat. I would take a few steps closer and do the same thing over and over again. This type of counter-conditioning helps your dog associate seeing another dog with positive reinforcement (treats, praise, toy, etc...whatever they love the most). As time goes on, I used every 2 weeks, I would get 5 feet closer to another dog. This built his threshold of being in the presence of other dogs without reacting.
I was in the same situation as you, I knew I had a fearful dog, but I wanted to add to my pack. I found a breeder who used to breed Kai Ken's in my area, she notified me that she had a 3 year old, intact, male Kai Ken. I went to meet him and brought the dogs with me to see how they would interact. I instantly fell in love with him (Kai Ken's are one of my favorite breeds). Here is the video I took, to show my old behaviorist to get his input if this would work out or not.
This was when Ninja was about 9 months old. The Kai Ken was very laid back and pretty much avoiding Ninja. It seemed like a pretty good greeting, considering how Ninja would usually react. I showed the video to my old behaviorist and he approved that this dog wouldn't be a problem. Well, we brought him home to see if things would work out. The breeder gave me 3 days to see if it would work or not. The first night went ok. The second day, Ninja started being very aggressive through the gate we set up to seperate them and would charge the pen we kept the Kai Ken in. Ninja eventually lashed out on us whenever we tried to correct his behavior. I would have never thought that Ninja would EVER try to bite me or my boyfriend. Day 3 came around, and things just got worse, Ninja was constantly stressed and the Kai Ken was pretty stressed as well. We decided to return him, it just wasn't a good environment for both dogs to live in. We got ahead of ourselves and didn't think things through.
I started searching for more behaviorist, as I didn't agree with some of the methods my old behaviorist was suggesting. I scheduled a 3 hour private lesson and learned so much. I was damn sure he would not be accepted into her daycare due to his reactiveness to other dogs, but she offered me something that she didn't offer to many people. She allowed me to drop him off and be kept in the office with some staff and their dogs. They planned to do this for 3 months , so he wouldn't be overwhelmed. The first day I dropped him off, I couldn't wait to go pick him up and find out the results. They said he did great! He got territorial of her at one point when a male staff member entered the office, but she quickly corrected him and ignored him.
The second time I took him, they put him in x-pen in the daycare room, so he could be around other dogs but seperated by the pen. When I went to pick him up, he was IN the daycare room with all the other dogs off leash and totally fine. I was so shocked, I cried! Ever since then, (about 6 months ago) I have been taking him to daycare on a regular basis and he is fine with the dogs. He isn't playing with them, but he has learned proper socialization skills. He will go up to sniff, and he will let dogs sniff him, he will growl and correct when he feels enough is enough and he will get corrected by other dogs when they think enough is enough. The point is, he learned to take a correction and he learned to give a correction without going over the top and causing a fight.
Here is a video of my neighbor's Minpin and Ninja semi-off-leash after a walk.
He is obviously much better now. He does a lot better with dogs off-lead rather than on-lead. I think a major part of working with dogs is to really get vocal control down. I work with Ninja on Sit, Stay, and Leave it religiously. I am actually really surprised how much vocal control I have over him now.
If I were you, I would work on basic commands first. Watch Me, Leave It, Sit, Stay, Down, etc., until the dogs have it down to the T. Then you might want to start working with conditioning them with other dogs and people. If you have friends with dogs who are willing to help, that would be a huge help.
With people, if your dogs are food motivated, whenever you have guests over or you go out in public. Have people throw treats at them while they approach or as they walk by. This will associate yummy treats with people walking by. It's also VERY important that you use a food that they love. Like warm hot dog, canned tuna, cheese, etc - something smelly and easily eaten is best. You could also teach the "touch" command. Put your hand out and have the dogs touch it with their noses to get a treat. Then you can start using other people's hands for them to touch to get a treat.
We are still working with Ninja's fear with people, we have only been focusing on his dog-dog issues. Rina recently met Ninja and Portia and he did go up to sniff her, which is a pretty big deal compared to how he would freak out before, but he still growls and "talks" when people are approaching.
There are endless amounts of different ways to help rehabilitate fearful dogs. But positive reinforcement has worked the best with my Shiba. If you have any questions or would like me to go into further depth on the techniques I mentioned, feel free to ask.
Finding a behaviorist is not easy - But there are good ones out there. I was really lucky that I found mine and that she was generous enough to allow me to enter Ninja into her daycare program. Most behaviorists don't have their own facility or daycare, but If I hadn't found my current behaviorist and she didn't let me enroll him in daycare, I don't know where we'd be! Just keep looking, be patient and consistent and you will eventually see results. You may never be able to bring in another dog into your pack while you have these dogs, but at least you are doing your best, and they will be living a less fearful life.
I am actually having a private lesson tomorrow with my behaviorist to learn to read Ninja's body language better. I admit, I still get tense/nervous when he's around other dogs and I'm sure Ninja senses that. So it will be like a mini daycare with me and the behaviorist in the room with other dogs, so she can help me understand better and hopefully I will be more confident in introducing dogs to Ninja. I also think Ninja has a bit of a territorial issue with me, so I'm excited to learn how to address that.
I'm sure Romi can give a better insight in her work with her shiba, Ninja. I'm sure their future has another dog in it, and its a great goal to have.
I'm interested in the answers to Corina's (shikokuspirit) questions, and also agree with what she said.
Check out Trulydogfriendly.com and/or a certified animal behaviorist in your area for a consultation and maybe training/resocialization plan for your pups.
The first attacks happened within the first month of rescuing my male. He was sevn months old. Loose neighborhood Goldens. (we live in the country and were walking down a paved road about a half mile from our house). I was stunned and didn't know what to do. The owner of the Goldens finally got there and pulled his dogs off. There was a lot of yelling from both humans during the attack. There wasn't blood but a lot of drool and ego bruising.
The same dogs attacked a few months later when we were walking in the woods near our home, and they happened to be there with their owner. This time I got furious and kicked one golden in the head hard enough to back him off and get my dog away.--They focused on my male (they were all intact males then). The owner was apologetic but he was seen later with loose dogs and I threatened him with written letters and aniumal control after learning the experience happened to several other neighbors. I then avioded those areas and my girl won't walk towards those areas- she plants her feet and won't move. They did roll her and get rough with her initially but focused on my male.
The next attack was by a loose black lab in our yard (we live in a boat yard). The dog was not as driven to be nasty, but he did lunge at my girl dog which then my male dog attacked him- lunged at him and made a yelling sound. They made some noise and the lab went away.
Since that time I learned to stand in front of my dogs and protect them as best I can first, which has diverted a lot of potential attacks from loose dogs. It has helped a little bit with my dogs seeing me as more a leader, but I can't say I blame them from not fully trusting that "I have it under control".
The most recent attack was two years ago when we had just bought a small house in Florida and were walking across a lawn of a park. A notoious dog aggressive dog happened to be walking with a dog sitter and got away from the sitter. I didn't hear her coming- she was an Austrailian Shepherd. She came from nowhere and literally tried to kill my female dog. I went ballistic. I am surprised I didn't get seriously hurt, but I wasn't going to let the dog kill me dog. I got in the scuffle and pried the bigger dog away- just to have her lunge again. I had dropped leashes, and my male didn't get involved this time, he stood cowering a short distance away.- about twenty feet away.
My girl dog sustained a few punctures- some bleeding. The other dog was okay, even though my girl did try to fight back, but the Aussie had her throat.
Needless to say I feel like a target and am a bit nervous when I see other dogs now.
The experiences were all dogs they never knew before- except the Goldens that the female had met once before the attacks- had been nose to nose with them- they had been on leash then and under control- she also had been a pup and intact female at that meeting. The first attack, she was spayed, but my male was intact. The second Golden attack my male may have still been intact, I'm not sure. The lab my male was neutered and I think the lab was also. The Aussie was spayed.
My dogs experiences with other dogs... The female has been to doggie kindergarten when she was a pup, was a classroom star, and she was a great reader of other dogs. She would try to break up tension by diverting the attetion of one bully type, she played well with different sizes, etc. She got into one scuffle with a terrier over treats, and since then we are careful with food because she does have a tendancy to be possesive of it with other dogs (puppy mill rescue- must have been free fed and had to fight for food). She still remembers the dogs she met as a pup and still acts puppylike with them- submissive, affectionate. There is only one dog still alive :(
She will also sometimes decide it's okay to be playful with bigger dogs, but only if she sets the rules first by telling them she's boss. Some little dogs she's okay with as long as they don't challenge her, or get too personal. If they stare at her or growl back, she'll jump on them and give them the knock down. (do what was done to her, I guess).
On leash when walking, she gets very excited about other dogs, will sometimes be vocal- trash talking. She sometimes will get down in a crouch and watch them walk by, or sometimes pop up as they go by and make noises. On leash she often will be bitchy. Sometimes the bitchyness will go away and she'll then want to play, but usally no one wants to find out.
The male just has no idea how to be. He is very curious- interested in wanting to smell the other dogs, but if their face is anywhere near him he snarls and snaps- air bites. I imagine he'd bite them in the nose if given the chance. He has gotten loose in his yard and has chased other dogs out of it- biting them in the butt as they run away from him.
So basically I have a serious mess on my hands.
And so I aviod interactions at all costs. When we walk I choose carefully the paces we go. I sometimes carry a branch to raise up and shake if loose dogs come running towards us, I stop and stand in front and call out NO, wave stick and 9 times out of 10 the dog slows, turns and the person can usually get their attention. If not and the dog gets near my dogs, they usually growl and snap and the dog will stay a distance from them. I try to stay still with passing on streets, we'll stand by side of road and let the walkers go by us. My male needs to do this with bikers, cars, etc. He is intimidated by anything behind him, and he's better if we stay still and watch whatever it is go by us. He's afraid of everything. he is also this way with people, but that's another story!!!
The girl is much more socially adjusted with people and is a great traveling dog. She does home visits and she hangs out at some outdoor live music skits and she does pretty well in small city streets. The male gets very very scared. So I try to not put him in those positions. When I travel I try to not expose him too much, and if we stay in a city I try to go out for walks at night and try to find more parklike areas,etc.
I guess what I'm saying is that "if" they would have more fun being able to be social with their own kind- comfortable playing and being dogs, then I would love to be able to provide that for them. If they could cope with it and enjoy it I would imagine having a confident dog around them might help them learn to be more confident themselves? Maybe not, but it just seemed tlike a possibility. I have benefitted in my life and have learned from being with people like that...
I will acess the links and see what I can find. I haven't had much opportunity to travel and spend time on this until now, so I'd like to focus on it if possible. I wish I knew more back when they were young, because it has been a long time, and will be much harder to deal with I'm sure. But I try to be a positive thinker.
Rachel
I think a behaviorist can at least give you the confidence you need to help your dogs, and the tools to resocialize and methods to redirect when they escalate in meeting other dogs.
Your female sounds like mine, she gets very excited while on leash to meet other dogs. My female will crouch and pop up when a group of dogs goes by, and gets vocal when playing, or anticipating play. I think most dogs can appropriately interpret her body language, even if their owners are hesitant at first. She's all play.
Our male is undersocialized. We still push social situations, within limits, for him. A few times a week we walk through moderately populated areas to get him used to walking past people, sitting while people approach. We give him Rescue Remedy for Pets when we know there will be lots of people, bikes, basketballs, strollers, etc, as his anxiety level really gets bad. Its a daily process... he turned 2 this past winter and while I see some improvements sometimes, other times it seems he's gone backwards or is at a stale mate. However, he's always been well socialized with other dogs of all sizes, types, genders - so we're blessed there.
I know for our male, he needs to feel our calm. If we are anxious about his anxiety, it makes it 100x's worse for him, he really picks up on it.
And your shibas have never had issue with one another? At least they have each other! They must have a great bond.
I'm waiting to see if user StaticNFuzz comes on to suggest anything - she's great with resources and behavior advice!
Outside of "her" home/space, she's a different dog than home. Boy is too. For him, the confidence is totally gone, tail is down, shaking, and very hunched, very uncomfortable--unless we find something more "familiar" like a woods area to walk without people around and other dogs. He needs a LOT of baby steps towards being more confident, but with someone who understands a fear aggressive dog, because if he's scared he *could* lash out. He make the signs that he wants to be curious and he wants to be friends, but he simply does not know how.. he never learned those skills-- puppy mill to pet store to no socializing/training to being abandoned to my house where he was then attacked... I feel so bad for him. And yet he isn't cowering in the house and hiding behind the bed like some of the rescues I've known and a couple I fostered and helped. I feel I need the training because I have lost my confidence in abiity to help- to be a good trainer/leader. I used to have the best socialized, trained dogs all my life, and then got in way over my head with these two. They have "issues" that I never had to deal with and my whole outlook on relationships and training and everything has changed so much (i think in a very good way) but it is still "new" to me in that I am not confident in how to use it. I have a great bond with both of my dogs. I just think I need to learn how to help them get better- as best as they can.
Rae
Does NYC Shiba Rescue have any trainers/behaviorists they can refer you to?
http://nycshibarescue.org/contact-us/
I know they have this trainer listed, though I'm not sure of the services rendered: http://andreaarden.com/
Also, I think I remember you saying you volunteer for NYCSR? Do you know Jenn M (intake director)? She's excellent with canine behavior, and is a trainer I believe. It wouldn't hurt to contact her, via email or otherwise. She helped me a lot with a former foster.
Here is a Canine Behavior Consultant locator:
http://www.iaabc.org/suchen/
I'm not too familiar with this organization, but the behavioral trainer I consulted with is listed, and she was all positive training, no aversions.
Here is a list of Certified Pet Dog Trainers (CPDT)
http://www.ccpdt.org/rstr/NY.html
Here is a list from Truly Dog Friendly of trainers:
http://www.trulydogfriendly.com/blog/?page_id=4
- - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -
I suggested a shiba meet up group because most are held in controlled environments, especially the NYC ones, most are NYCSR people who could probably set up a controlled atmosphere to see how your dogs would be... but you know your dogs - if its too much too fast, then I agree - best to wait!
I will check out everything.. thank you!
Either way, I wish you the best of luck with your pups!
HAPPY DOG TRAINING & BEHAVIOR
www.happydogbehavior.com
If you need a passive dog to help train with, Tikaani may be able to help. Even though he can be rough and tough with Tetsu, when it comes to other dogs he's a big wuss. He gets beaten up by my mother's chihuahua and he doesn't fight back.
I would look at the link Trulydogfriendly.com. If you travel to the FL area I am sure you could meet up with one of the trainers on that list or even maybe meet and consult with the trainer that Romi has used and I believe Brad used for Maui in GA. Maui has had some of the same things happen as your little fellow. Maybe you can contact Romi’s trainer to see if she knows of anyone that works in the same way. … Like birds of a feather good trainers flock together.
Also you could consult with Pat Miller in MD. She is one of the consultants on Whole dog Journal.
Anyway, since your dogs trust rests in their environment you will need to start where it is safe. And since both dogs live together harmoniously in the every day, I would think that over time you could "possibly" have another animal. However, not right now… the first steps are getting the confidence back among the three of you. Enough time has lapsed between incidents that the deep ingrained toil has gone long enough it has become habituated so it will take small steps over time to work through them. This probably means you will have to work with each animal individually to train/re-modify behaviors and then bring everyone back together for outdoor activities away from home. Again, this will take time and a specific plan of action that should be worked out with the trainer you are comfortable working with, who can guide you hands on. The sad fact is, once a dog has lost it’s confidence it is a target for the neighborhood bullies or other dogs who pick up on the vibe. With every incident it reinforces the negative behavior, so it becomes a vicious cycle. Therefore you and trainer must control the environment to make good things happen when working through the issues. Also keep in mind when looking for a trainer or behaviorist, don’t be fooled by those to claim to train wild animals they can be just as harsh as the rest of the dominance advocates. Keep in mind, dogs are not wolves and their behavior differs quite a bit and training therefore must differ.
Snf
Very interesting thing happened yesterday afternoon (as seems to happen too often to not notice some phychic pattern? when I start talking about something, that subject comes to the forefront in life)... My husband and I were on our evening dog walk. We were strolling casually down a side street, dogs sniffing and marking, taking their time, tails up and relaxed. Girl dog stops and her ears go out to the sides and she decides it's time to turn around and head back- with a slight pressure on the leash- nervousness/urgency to leave. So I look up ahead... it's the Goldens! I haven't seen them in a few years.. and once again, they are loose. Their owner is a short distance behind them. But it's too late. They see us/smell us and full speed ahead they come charging. I am really pissed. I stride right out towards them, shouting NO go home bad dog. They briefly make eye contact as they continue to race towards us. I continue to "stalk" them and the one dog turns and returns to the owner- who is calling their names. The other goes towards my girl dog, and I manage to push him, he turns and then goes towards my male dog and my male lunges at him causing him to back up and then the Golden tried to fight back but my male is standing his ground, he makes a yelling sound and snaps at him in a series of air bites, and I did notice his stance was one of confidence this time, fur barely raised, tail and head up and leaning forward, straight body posture- The Golden was not amused but he realized he was outnumbered and turned to go to his owner.
This all took place in about a minute? Maybe two at the most.
After the Goldens were gone, my male kept looking at me and grinning. He kept wanting to stop and poke his nose at my hands. I think he was either thanking me or saying something like "good work team"... I am not sure, but he felt awfully good about himself. He strutted home all proud of himself. My girl dog was distraught and wanted to get home, where she sulked a while. She did respond and interact in play when the male noticed her sulking and went over and started chewing on her. She seemed fine after that and this morning.
While I suppose it's good that my male felt more confident, I also don't want it to go to his head where he then becomes a bully... so finding a trainer is going to be a good thing for me to do!! I'm not sure that what I did was good, correct or otherwise but I am pleased that there was no real contact made between the dogs and a potential bad situation was dissolved. It's just weird how I wrote about this yesterday and all of a sudden there they are...
Keep us updated on the trainer search! Best of luck!
Either way, I am glad that things did not escalate further and that your boy seemed more confident than fearful. Since I have never had any experience of this nature, I am not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing.
Best of luck in your search for a good behaviourist. I think the suggestion to maybe contact Romi's behaviouist to see if she knows of anyone in your area that could help is a good idea. Like Patrice said, birds of a feather flock together.
Don't worry about your shy girl at this point and no coddling. Just act like nothing ever happened. You avoided any contact so that is great! Keep looking for the right trainer and work on confidence building activities for each animal. Steps toward agility can be a great help for some of the most shy.
Snf
I also wanted to add this picture of the two dogs to show their closeness. While they don't sleep in a puppy pile or even right next to one another often, they do participate in co-grooming. The female is more in charge of this and is very thorough. They rarely squabble over anything, and it's the girl who will guard a bone and snarl at the boy, who will poke at her until he gets the bone or just finds it boring. Rarely has any of their "tiffs" escalated to full shiba spat, and they play regularly. They also have a decent relationship with "thier" kitties, as long as there isn't a valuable food item available, but they will play some and will sleep together if the cat is there first and the dog joins; not the other way around.
I'm writing emails... paws crossed.
Good luck in any case
Snf