I love the jumpy picture of Luytiy! He's adorable, which is a bit of a tricksy look for him as he's a guardian, disarm them with his cuteness and then scare the crap out of you with his veracious barking! I also love the Masha/Blue picture, perfect face on blue for the situation haha.
Blue is beautiful! His light eyes give him a surprised look, but his loose skin makes him look worried. My dear Blue, you have never looked as brindley handsome as you do right now!
There's a dog show this weekend. Since I can't go to WI, I'm going to it. I was excited to see that there are supposed to be 2 Cane Corsos at the show.
Oh yea? In GA? There are a few CC breeders in GA, but Blue came from Amore Cane Corso based in Augusta - so I guess they could be there too. Let me know if they are! )
I think he is pretty happy, he's got his "flock" and acreage to guard, the weather is cooling down, and he is not crated 99% of his time... I think he has the life he wants. I hope that's the case anyway.
I must not be checking in on this thread enough because I missed the one with Masha chomping on Blue. HUGE LOL to that one, it's maybe my favorite pic ever. Blue's face is just asking to be captioned.
I never thought about this till you wrote that, Brad- Liutiysaurus Rex guards the flock of dogs & the yard, what's Masha's guard duty? Does she defer to Liutiy and let him be the captain of Guard so she can play, or does she have other guard responsibilities? What's Blue's guard duty? He's not a flock guardian, right? Does Blue guard the house more than guard the flock? if they are property/acreage guards are they less guardy off-property?
This is a pretty hi intensity guard setup when you think about it. And I havent nodded to the watchdogging of Kai Ken Kona- but I wonder how you'd describe the difference between watchdog vs guard dog among each of these guys? (for example, Sage is like a Watchdog: keenly notices everything remotely unusual and barks or bluffs, but of the two of them, Reilly would be more likely to actually DO something to someone who broke into my house, so I'd call her tendencies more of a Guard and less of a Watchdog.)
Tell us more about guard dogs and watch dogs and flock guards and non flock guards...
Well, this is a hard one to answer in a short post and it goes back to why I picked these breeds to begin with...
We chose Caucasian Ovcharka for 4 reasons: 1) They are considered less dog aggressive than many of the LGD breeds. 2) They are very agile, hardy, and rugged (good for living outside in the cold). 3) CO have served as both property guardians and LGD for thousands of years. 4) [Most important] Masha's breeder (Luytiy's importer), Stacey, was the only breeder I spoke to (out of 20+ breeders of various LGD breeds) that was totally confident in her dog's ability to guard our dogs without issues (like dog aggression).
I originally decided I needed an LGD because we had Coyote in our fenced area, Eagle and Hawk swooping down for Kona and Maui, as well as numerous encounters with Mountain Lion tracks around our home. So, I was looking into ways to protect our dogs and felt protecting our dogs with a dog was a natural fit.
Jen and I spend a good amount of time on the trails in the Mountains around our home (the southern Rockies), in these areas there are many Black Bear (and I have been warned by forest rangers that they are human predatory) as well as many Mountain Lion (4 attacks on humans this year, 3 last year all within 5 miles of our home). So, I also wanted a dog that could hike with us for protection (this is another reason for my draw to the agility and strength of the CO).
Stacey breeds CO but I was worried a puppy would take too long to mature so I asked her about older dogs...
Stacey had imported Luytiy for breeding and felt he was a good fit as he showed no dog aggression and was very sweet and kind. She was willing to place him in a home that would work with her if she wanted to breed him later (Luytiy's pedigree is very nice). She offered other prospects to us but Luytiy seemed like he was the best fit (good age, kind, not dog aggressive [...] ).
Then the question came up (by Jen): What happens if we are hiking with our LGD and a predator comes to get the dogs at home? Well, the answer is simple: We get 2 CO! LOL Stacey agreed that we could also purchase a female puppy from her, that is/was Masha.
The plan was for Luytiy to be our night guard and Masha to be our day guard, if we hiked Luytiy we would have Masha back at the ranch, if we hiked Masha then Luytiy would stay behind. Good plan, right? Well you know what they say about the best laid plans...
Turns out Luytiy is exactly what Stacey said he was (kind to family, not dog aggressive, very sweet), but Luytiy is also a very typical Russian bred CO - VERY sharp toward strangers and a bit hard-headed. He is just too much of a Liability to hike in public areas.
That was ok tho, we had Masha to raise to be a great trail dog, and we are still doing that. So the plan now is for Masha to be our trail CO and have a light guarding duty at home and Luytiy is our primary property / flock guard. Luytiy is out side 24/7 on duty and really seems to love his job - he shows GREAT judgment now and has really grown into his role.
Masha is much more trainable than Luytiy, and has had a lot of socialization in public and on trail. She is just as sharp as Luytiy, maybe even sharper in some ways, but she has a great base layer of training. So the plan is still a good one for our COs, not the exact one I had in mind but still a solid plan.
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So where does Blue fit in? This summer we noticed that Masha was rather hot on our hikes and so I started thinking a short-coated breed would do better for trail protection in the summer. Do we really need one? No, Masha would have been fine but I had always wanted a Mastiff and really liked Cane Corso.
So Blue is basically a warm-weather "Masha" with a few differences...
Blue's breed has some interesting qualities, they are what pulled me more toward the Cane Corso as a Mastiff than, say, the Tosa Inu. Cane Corso are used heavily for personal protection work, they are used for this type of work because they are VERY trainable (like a GSD). They also don't roam, so they can be off-lead in the back country and not disappear on you (can't say this for the CO). They are also a coursing Mastiff, which means they love to run and jump, this lends itself nicely to the role of a trail dog (in old days, the rich would use them to run along side the stage coach and protect them from "highway men").
Blue comes from some of the BEST working lines in North America, his father is by far the most titled CC in America. His breeder has produced CC that are on the Police force - they are a true working kennel. Blue has a very high-drive temperament and a natural gift for protection work. He is very obedient and VERY efficient in the role of personal protection.
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So, that's the background, now to answer your questions directly (the ones that have not been answered already)...
Does Masha defer to Luytiy and let him be the captain of Guard so she can play, or does she have other guard responsibilities? >> Not really, if something goes down outside she is (or wants to be) right there with him doing their job together. Traditionally LGD work in pairs or small groups. Masha is way more trigger happy than Luytiy, I think this is a maturity thing.
What's Blue's guard duty? >> Blue's #1 task is to protect Jen - on or off trail. Jen will hike the pups without me sometimes and Blue is her protection from human or animal threats. She should really be traveling with Blue right now... but she said she needed a break from him. LOL. Again, best laid plans...
Does Blue guard the house more than guard the flock? >> Yes. If one of the dogs is hurt (like when Kaia hurt her hip) Blue was totally oblivious while the COs whent on full-on guard mode.
if they are property/acreage guards are they less guardy off-property? >> Yes to Masha and Luytiy (tho Luytiy more than Masha, he only guards things he is 100% comfortable with). Blue will guard Jen (and me) anywhere (and our property too).
This is a pretty hi intensity guard setup when you think about it. >> It is utter and complete over-kill (to be frank about it). Luytiy or Blue or Masha alone would be enough if each one could preform all duties properly (or as needed). There is another level to the overall picture tho - our dogs are pretty well known in their niche on the internet, and I am pretty public about our home and life. So, it's nice to know that the dogs and us are protected from any crazy internet people. Also, Taos is a strange place, it's very safe, but at the same time we are only 5 miles from an area called "The Mesa" - it's a lawless and scary place. The road we live off ends at the Rio Grand Gorge where there are hot springs, many of the people that live in the area called "The Mesa" (close to Carson, NM) come here to bathe - they are mostly runaways and transients and some do not have the best intentions. Having said that, my neighbor keeps their doors unlocked and has never had an issue - so I can not say that they pose any real danger to us.
And I haven't nodded to the watch dogging of Kai Ken Kona- but I wonder how you'd describe the difference between watchdog vs guard dog among each of these guys? >> Kona is a GREAT alarm dog, he sounds the alarm and Luytiy comes running - same with Ahi, she is a great alarm dog too. We have 3 guard dogs and a house full of "alarm dogs". )
Tell us more about guard dogs and watch dogs and flock guards and non flock guards >> There are different levels of each and it would be impossible for me to list them all, but here is a quick overview...
LGD bond closely with the flock and protect them, they are not necessarily property protectors - they go where the flock goes and protects them.
Property guards do exactly what it sounds like they do. They will guard anything, and everything, including (but not limited to) children, animals, people, wood piles, cars, shoes, houses, factories, you name it, they will guard it. Many property guards are Bandogs (aka "chain dogs") and spent most of their life chained to the item they were meant to guard. Both CO and CC (as well as other breeds like the Tibetan Mastiff) were on chain at one time in their history. A lot of the breeds used as property guards today are actually split into 2 types: LGD & Chain Dog. The CO, TM, and CC are examples of this. In the CO their were the LGD lines and the factory / town guarding lines, same applies to the TM. For the CC their were "Hay Dogs" who were chained to hay bales and protected the hay from robbers, "Pig Dogs" who roamed with the pigs and protected them, "Goat Dogs" same as Pig dogs but for goats, and "Butcher Dogs" who would drive, bait, and hold the bulls for slaughter by the butcher.
*2 interesting side point about CCs: In Southern Italy, back in the day, the Pigs and Goats often grazed on private land. The shepherds would purposely (and illegally) graze them on land they didn't own and the CCs primary function was actually to protect the shepherds from the land lords (who would often deploy dogs and men to attack the trespassers) - hints their skills in personal protection. Also, the Butcher dogs were trained (and selected) to be very big and powerful and would "run" the bulls from the corral to the butcher shop. The Butcher would then tether the CC close to the bull and if the butcher was not able to make a "clean" kill (with a knife) the CC was expected to hold the bull by the nose to stop it from inuring the butcher while the butcher made another attempt to kill the bull - because of this it is said that the "butcher dog type" of CC was EXTERMELY aggressive while on tether... (the source of Blue's crazy barrier frustration????)
Then their are alarm and watch dogs, these are usually smaller breeds that bark a lot. Interestingly many of the guardian breeds had a little alarm dog breed that was deployed with them. The alarm dogs would sound the alarm and the big guardians would come in and do their job (as the guardians were usually sleeping or walking their territory line). For the TM, the Tibetan Spaniel was the chosen alarm dog paired with them and for the Cane Corso it was the Volpino Italiano (similar to the Pomeranian).
That's okay, I'm one for details...so I actually read all that. It really didn't seem like "that" much though while reading it, but looking at it now and scrolling up...it looks as if that might have taken you quite some time to write. :)
It's really interesting stuff...especially when one is looking at their own pack. I've got my alarm dogs and a guard/protection dog. No need for a guardian/livestock dog quite yet. I may be needing to get a couple in the future though (when I get some property) and, as of yet, I have no experience with LGD. So it's nice to get your experience/perspective/research/knowledge on them.
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As always...you have gorgeous models for your photos. I'm a fan of the "Luytiy gas" pic. And the "Masha and surprised Blue" is gonna be a classic - that's the coolest goofy expression on Blue ever!
Haha, yea it did take me a while. It's a lot of rambling, I guess it shows that I am bored without Jen here. :oT
So, Romi met Luytiy on Friday, we actually let him out in the yard with her in the yard - but separated by a fence. He did ok, really I was impressed by his judgement. Tho, as we moved closer to him he started to guard more heavily. He's a big brute.
Romi knows some Leos that go to the daycare she works for and it was interesting to hear her comparison. She said Luytiy was more fluffy and thicker but about the same size.
Comments
One of Luytiy w/ his summer coat:
And this is what it looks like when Luytiy has gas:
Masha having her way with Blue:
Mr. Blue:
Video of the "Chill Den":
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And Masha pulling Blue's coat, he has a lot of extra skin to grow into huh?!?!? Yikes.
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My dear Blue, you have never looked as brindley handsome as you do right now!
He is so gorgeous!
Blue is 75lb now! That's 5lb less than Hilo!!! He should top out around 120lb.
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This is a pretty hi intensity guard setup when you think about it. And I havent nodded to the watchdogging of Kai Ken Kona- but I wonder how you'd describe the difference between watchdog vs guard dog among each of these guys? (for example, Sage is like a Watchdog: keenly notices everything remotely unusual and barks or bluffs, but of the two of them, Reilly would be more likely to actually DO something to someone who broke into my house, so I'd call her tendencies more of a Guard and less of a Watchdog.)
Tell us more about guard dogs and watch dogs and flock guards and non flock guards...
We chose Caucasian Ovcharka for 4 reasons:
1) They are considered less dog aggressive than many of the LGD breeds.
2) They are very agile, hardy, and rugged (good for living outside in the cold).
3) CO have served as both property guardians and LGD for thousands of years.
4) [Most important] Masha's breeder (Luytiy's importer), Stacey, was the only breeder I spoke to (out of 20+ breeders of various LGD breeds) that was totally confident in her dog's ability to guard our dogs without issues (like dog aggression).
I originally decided I needed an LGD because we had Coyote in our fenced area, Eagle and Hawk swooping down for Kona and Maui, as well as numerous encounters with Mountain Lion tracks around our home. So, I was looking into ways to protect our dogs and felt protecting our dogs with a dog was a natural fit.
Jen and I spend a good amount of time on the trails in the Mountains around our home (the southern Rockies), in these areas there are many Black Bear (and I have been warned by forest rangers that they are human predatory) as well as many Mountain Lion (4 attacks on humans this year, 3 last year all within 5 miles of our home). So, I also wanted a dog that could hike with us for protection (this is another reason for my draw to the agility and strength of the CO).
Stacey breeds CO but I was worried a puppy would take too long to mature so I asked her about older dogs...
Stacey had imported Luytiy for breeding and felt he was a good fit as he showed no dog aggression and was very sweet and kind. She was willing to place him in a home that would work with her if she wanted to breed him later (Luytiy's pedigree is very nice). She offered other prospects to us but Luytiy seemed like he was the best fit (good age, kind, not dog aggressive [...] ).
Then the question came up (by Jen): What happens if we are hiking with our LGD and a predator comes to get the dogs at home? Well, the answer is simple: We get 2 CO! LOL Stacey agreed that we could also purchase a female puppy from her, that is/was Masha.
The plan was for Luytiy to be our night guard and Masha to be our day guard, if we hiked Luytiy we would have Masha back at the ranch, if we hiked Masha then Luytiy would stay behind. Good plan, right? Well you know what they say about the best laid plans...
Turns out Luytiy is exactly what Stacey said he was (kind to family, not dog aggressive, very sweet), but Luytiy is also a very typical Russian bred CO - VERY sharp toward strangers and a bit hard-headed. He is just too much of a Liability to hike in public areas.
That was ok tho, we had Masha to raise to be a great trail dog, and we are still doing that. So the plan now is for Masha to be our trail CO and have a light guarding duty at home and Luytiy is our primary property / flock guard. Luytiy is out side 24/7 on duty and really seems to love his job - he shows GREAT judgment now and has really grown into his role.
Masha is much more trainable than Luytiy, and has had a lot of socialization in public and on trail. She is just as sharp as Luytiy, maybe even sharper in some ways, but she has a great base layer of training. So the plan is still a good one for our COs, not the exact one I had in mind but still a solid plan.
----
So where does Blue fit in? This summer we noticed that Masha was rather hot on our hikes and so I started thinking a short-coated breed would do better for trail protection in the summer. Do we really need one? No, Masha would have been fine but I had always wanted a Mastiff and really liked Cane Corso.
So Blue is basically a warm-weather "Masha" with a few differences...
Blue's breed has some interesting qualities, they are what pulled me more toward the Cane Corso as a Mastiff than, say, the Tosa Inu. Cane Corso are used heavily for personal protection work, they are used for this type of work because they are VERY trainable (like a GSD). They also don't roam, so they can be off-lead in the back country and not disappear on you (can't say this for the CO). They are also a coursing Mastiff, which means they love to run and jump, this lends itself nicely to the role of a trail dog (in old days, the rich would use them to run along side the stage coach and protect them from "highway men").
Blue comes from some of the BEST working lines in North America, his father is by far the most titled CC in America. His breeder has produced CC that are on the Police force - they are a true working kennel. Blue has a very high-drive temperament and a natural gift for protection work. He is very obedient and VERY efficient in the role of personal protection.
----
So, that's the background, now to answer your questions directly (the ones that have not been answered already)...
Does Masha defer to Luytiy and let him be the captain of Guard so she can play, or does she have other guard responsibilities?
>> Not really, if something goes down outside she is (or wants to be) right there with him doing their job together. Traditionally LGD work in pairs or small groups. Masha is way more trigger happy than Luytiy, I think this is a maturity thing.
What's Blue's guard duty?
>> Blue's #1 task is to protect Jen - on or off trail. Jen will hike the pups without me sometimes and Blue is her protection from human or animal threats. She should really be traveling with Blue right now... but she said she needed a break from him. LOL. Again, best laid plans...
Does Blue guard the house more than guard the flock?
>> Yes. If one of the dogs is hurt (like when Kaia hurt her hip) Blue was totally oblivious while the COs whent on full-on guard mode.
if they are property/acreage guards are they less guardy off-property?
>> Yes to Masha and Luytiy (tho Luytiy more than Masha, he only guards things he is 100% comfortable with). Blue will guard Jen (and me) anywhere (and our property too).
This is a pretty hi intensity guard setup when you think about it.
>> It is utter and complete over-kill (to be frank about it). Luytiy or Blue or Masha alone would be enough if each one could preform all duties properly (or as needed). There is another level to the overall picture tho - our dogs are pretty well known in their niche on the internet, and I am pretty public about our home and life. So, it's nice to know that the dogs and us are protected from any crazy internet people. Also, Taos is a strange place, it's very safe, but at the same time we are only 5 miles from an area called "The Mesa" - it's a lawless and scary place. The road we live off ends at the Rio Grand Gorge where there are hot springs, many of the people that live in the area called "The Mesa" (close to Carson, NM) come here to bathe - they are mostly runaways and transients and some do not have the best intentions. Having said that, my neighbor keeps their doors unlocked and has never had an issue - so I can not say that they pose any real danger to us.
And I haven't nodded to the watch dogging of Kai Ken Kona- but I wonder how you'd describe the difference between watchdog vs guard dog among each of these guys?
>> Kona is a GREAT alarm dog, he sounds the alarm and Luytiy comes running - same with Ahi, she is a great alarm dog too. We have 3 guard dogs and a house full of "alarm dogs".
Tell us more about guard dogs and watch dogs and flock guards and non flock guards
>> There are different levels of each and it would be impossible for me to list them all, but here is a quick overview...
LGD bond closely with the flock and protect them, they are not necessarily property protectors - they go where the flock goes and protects them.
Property guards do exactly what it sounds like they do. They will guard anything, and everything, including (but not limited to) children, animals, people, wood piles, cars, shoes, houses, factories, you name it, they will guard it. Many property guards are Bandogs (aka "chain dogs") and spent most of their life chained to the item they were meant to guard. Both CO and CC (as well as other breeds like the Tibetan Mastiff) were on chain at one time in their history. A lot of the breeds used as property guards today are actually split into 2 types: LGD & Chain Dog. The CO, TM, and CC are examples of this. In the CO their were the LGD lines and the factory / town guarding lines, same applies to the TM. For the CC their were "Hay Dogs" who were chained to hay bales and protected the hay from robbers, "Pig Dogs" who roamed with the pigs and protected them, "Goat Dogs" same as Pig dogs but for goats, and "Butcher Dogs" who would drive, bait, and hold the bulls for slaughter by the butcher.
*2 interesting side point about CCs: In Southern Italy, back in the day, the Pigs and Goats often grazed on private land. The shepherds would purposely (and illegally) graze them on land they didn't own and the CCs primary function was actually to protect the shepherds from the land lords (who would often deploy dogs and men to attack the trespassers) - hints their skills in personal protection. Also, the Butcher dogs were trained (and selected) to be very big and powerful and would "run" the bulls from the corral to the butcher shop. The Butcher would then tether the CC close to the bull and if the butcher was not able to make a "clean" kill (with a knife) the CC was expected to hold the bull by the nose to stop it from inuring the butcher while the butcher made another attempt to kill the bull - because of this it is said that the "butcher dog type" of CC was EXTERMELY aggressive while on tether... (the source of Blue's crazy barrier frustration????)
Then their are alarm and watch dogs, these are usually smaller breeds that bark a lot. Interestingly many of the guardian breeds had a little alarm dog breed that was deployed with them. The alarm dogs would sound the alarm and the big guardians would come in and do their job (as the guardians were usually sleeping or walking their territory line). For the TM, the Tibetan Spaniel was the chosen alarm dog paired with them and for the Cane Corso it was the Volpino Italiano (similar to the Pomeranian).
Ok, that was long. LOL
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That's okay, I'm one for details...so I actually read all that. It really didn't seem like "that" much though while reading it, but looking at it now and scrolling up...it looks as if that might have taken you quite some time to write. :)
It's really interesting stuff...especially when one is looking at their own pack. I've got my alarm dogs and a guard/protection dog. No need for a guardian/livestock dog quite yet. I may be needing to get a couple in the future though (when I get some property) and, as of yet, I have no experience with LGD. So it's nice to get your experience/perspective/research/knowledge on them.
------------------------------
As always...you have gorgeous models for your photos. I'm a fan of the "Luytiy gas" pic. And the "Masha and surprised Blue" is gonna be a classic - that's the coolest goofy expression on Blue ever!
So, Romi met Luytiy on Friday, we actually let him out in the yard with her in the yard - but separated by a fence. He did ok, really I was impressed by his judgement. Tho, as we moved closer to him he started to guard more heavily. He's a big brute.
Romi knows some Leos that go to the daycare she works for and it was interesting to hear her comparison. She said Luytiy was more fluffy and thicker but about the same size.
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