Kishu Growth in the United States
To those of you who have been fanciers of these Japanese breeds for awhile: I have some questions. Where do you think the Kishu is going here in America? Do you think it is true that there is only one breeder in the United States? Hasn't she sold a few litters, thereby spreading a few females around for future breeding purposes? Where is new stock coming from if the Japanese are really that reluctant to export their dogs? And is that even true? Do you think there will simply be a very slow growth of the breed as it catches on? I've asked Carleen where she would be getting new breeding stock and she's been rather coy with her answer: she has "sources," friends in Japan.
I'm not concerned in particular for myself. I'm happy being able to train and compete in companion events and never see an AKC conformation ring. My own solution should I get a really excellent male is to collect him and then neuter at 18 months or 2 years of age once the growth plates have fully closed. Best of both worlds. His genes aren't lost, yet I don't have to work an intact male. Been there, done that with my Vallhund and I don't want to go there again, especially with a male that might be a handful.
Anyway, in general terms, where do people think this breed is going here in America? There seem to be way more Shikoku and Kai breeders out there, for instance, than Kishu breeders -- I just don't know how one person can sustain an entire breed.
And lastly, has anyone noticed that it seems that the Japanese made SEVERAL of these breeds natural (or national?) monuments in 1934, not just the Kishu?
I'm not concerned in particular for myself. I'm happy being able to train and compete in companion events and never see an AKC conformation ring. My own solution should I get a really excellent male is to collect him and then neuter at 18 months or 2 years of age once the growth plates have fully closed. Best of both worlds. His genes aren't lost, yet I don't have to work an intact male. Been there, done that with my Vallhund and I don't want to go there again, especially with a male that might be a handful.
Anyway, in general terms, where do people think this breed is going here in America? There seem to be way more Shikoku and Kai breeders out there, for instance, than Kishu breeders -- I just don't know how one person can sustain an entire breed.
And lastly, has anyone noticed that it seems that the Japanese made SEVERAL of these breeds natural (or national?) monuments in 1934, not just the Kishu?
Comments
Shiba, Shikoku, Kishu, Kai, Hokkaido, Akita.
I don't know if there's only one breeder in the US simply for the fact that the Kishu is AKC-FSS registrable. To qualify for even 'preliminary' entrance to the AKC, part of the AKC's belief is that there is a good breed club and growing interest.. dependent on a single provider? If a FSS registrable breed's population tops 300-400, (among other requirements), they may be eligible for entry into the Misc. class.. do you think one breeder is either sufficiently equipped to morally and logistically handle 'producing' 300-400 dogs? So all around I'm not sure but I am placing at least some weight on the AKC's decision to accept the Kishu in their FSS.
On top of that, even if she has sold a few litters, those dogs are all at least partially related to just the handful of dogs that she owns, even if she imported either the semen or a stud dog. The few female pups she has sold may or may not be of breeding quality, and new owners may not even know where the find a suitable sire that isn't already related to the bitch they have.
I haven't found it very tough to find JP breeders willing to work with me in exporting dogs (not Kishu, however), but perhaps it's more of a language barrier for most than anything else?
Lastly, all six of the so-called native Japanese spitz dogs are national living monuments as designated by the JP government.
I'm sure a lot of the popularity of the Kishu vs. the Kai or Shikoku has to do with the difficulties of getting the dogs out of Japan for breeding. The Kishu's breed club in Japan may not be as open to selling their dogs to foreigners - that's just a guess tho.
Also, it could simply be due to the look of the breed, I mean they only come in white, and if you look at all the Nihonken breed the white color variations are mos def less popular in the states (like the white Akita, there are few representations here). I happen to like the white color, but I know, in the past, people have had a hard time finding homes for white Shikoku due to their color... so maybe that plays a part.
As for the AKC stuff, I'm sure there are rules on AKC-FSS exceptance... I don't know much about that, but I do know the AKC as well as the "Breed Clubs" is full of scandals, rule bending, and politics. The Kishu may have found its way in simply by knowing the right people.
Also, there are 4 Kai Ken breeders and 2 Shikoku breeders in the United States, I would hardly call that "way more".
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As far as Kishu are concerned, when I was talking to her ahead of getting on the waitling list for Tomoe, Carleen claimed responsibility for the presence of the breed on the AKC FSS roles. She said she petitioned the AKC to allow Kishus in certain events that FSS normally are not entitled for entry to. She encouraged me to do some Rally or Agility with her. She's doing a lot for the future of the breed in the US, but ultimately, there will have to be another couple of breeders to really establish the breed here.
I think it would be good to bring the breed a little bit further into the mainstream. As long as all the breeders keep the breed healthy and robust and we can keep 'em from being puppymilled.
What most are worried about is that dogs sent overseas are just going to some collector who finds it cool to have rare dogs, and that they'll be unscrupulous in their breeding or care of the dog. Obviously it's hard to just send dogs to someone you've never met, and probably never will, and chances are you'll have no idea of what happens to the dog in the future. Also, any dog sent overseas is not going to be able to be part of any planned breeding program.
There are oodles of issues, but really, if you put time and effort into it, getting more dogs over to the States is not terribly difficult IMHO.
A couple of things: I'm not sure that a "registry" is a club, and it's certainly not web-based like most are. You cannot just go onto a website and find out about Kishu and where other breeders or owners reside. Maybe that's coming, but for now, we are entirely dependent on Carleen sending us a list of names that are on the registry. I haven't done that yet, but it might be a good experiment...
It may be true that Carleen petitioned AKC to allow Kishu to do companion events. And maybe it was coincidence that about that time, the AKC decided to open companion events to a whole bunch of the FSS breeds -- they must have had some internal change of policy. So I'm not at all sure she was "responsible" for this.
"Also, there are 4 Kai Ken breeders and 2 Shikoku breeders in the United States, I would hardly call that "way more". "
Sorry, my misinterpretation. I happened to be reading a few back posts where people were talking about breeding this dog to that bitch, waiting for puppies, etc. -- it sounded like there was an established network and breeding was alive and well. Seemed like a flurry of activity!
I wonder why the Shikoku hasn't made it to the FSS stage yet. I believe one of the criteria was proof of 3 generation pedigrees, but I don't know on how many dogs.
Because I do so much obedience, rally and agility in two or three venues, my dogs tend to be fairly well known in a wide region surrounding Montana. I will do my part in showcasing the breed, should I get one. And I'll offer his frozen collection if there is ever an opportunity (to an approved bitch, of course!). That's about all I can do.
The rules are as follows for FSS registration:
-Fill out a questionnaire for new breeds.
-Provide a written breed history documenting the distinct breed over a period of many decades. This should include details on any foreign and/or domestic organizations that register the breed. The source of the historical information must also be provided.
-Provide an official written breed standard, indicating the origin of that standard. If the standard differs from the official breed standard in the breed country of origin those differences must be specified.
-Provide photographs of the breed, including puppies and adults, as well as both dogs and bitches. If there are different accepted types in the breed, photographs of each type should be included and labeled as such.
As you see, the requirements for simply being in the FSS isn't that tough. Moving into the Misc. class is much tougher and has guidelines as follows:
-Form a strong national breed club and encourage fanciers nationwide to join and get involved. A national breed club with representative membership of about 100 active households is expected for a breed to be placed in the Miscellaneous Class. The amount of active households needed may vary depending on the number of dogs recorded in the FSS®.
-Create a breed standard that conforms to the Guidelines for Writing Breed Standards. Final approval is made by the AKC Board at the time the breed is approved for full recognition.
-Form active committees such as a rescue committee or a health committee, put on shows, and publish a quarterly newsletter. A committed AKC liaison is also keeping AKC updated on the club's various activities and provides documentation of the fanciers' dedication to full AKC recognition. Current officer and membership lists must be on file with the AKC.
-Encourage other fanciers to record their dogs with FSS®. A minimum of 300-400 dogs with complete three-generation pedigrees, owned by many different individuals residing in various parts of the nation, must be recorded as part of the criteria for approval to move to the Miscellaneous Class. The more dogs you record with the FSS®, the more committed AKC believes the fanciers are to achieving full recognition. If the national breed club has not submitted its breed registry for entry into FSS®, the club is required to do so when moving to the Miscellaneous Class.
-A dog must be enrolled in the AKC FSS® to be eligible to be entered in the Miscellaneous Class.
-Stay in contact. The AKC moves forward with recognition of breeds whose fanciers want the breed to be recognized. Maintaining regular contact with FSS® staff will show your enthusiasm for and commitment to AKC recognition.
"Normally breeds remain in the Miscellaneous Class one to three years. However breeds with 1,000 or more dogs enrolled in FSS® may be evaluated after six months in Miscellaneous, these breeds will remain in the Miscellaneous Class a minimum of 18 months. Breeds with less than 1,000 dogs will be evaluated at the end of each year in Miscellaneous. When all criteria are met the information is presented to the AKC Board of Directors for approval to move to full AKC recognition and breed conformation competition."
Take someone like me (yes, it's all about me). I'm on a waiting list for a winter breeding from the only breeder in the United States. I'm not exactly prepared to import a dog from Japan. The Kishu showed up on the FSS breeds one day and I thought hey, that's an interesting, good-looking breed, took a look, did some research, then found out about the one-breeder thing. I had no intention of importing a puppy sight unseen from someone in Japan who I probably can't communicate with.
Besides which, why would people overseas send over their best dogs? Even their GOOD dogs? I've never trusted that whole idea as a way to get a good dog.
Now Carleen tells me that it was a lot of work and she's rethinking the winter litter and maybe one litter a year is enough. I'm screwed. And bummed. Where do I go? I asked her about the Registry, could we find other people with Kishus -- she said the registry was not a public record, any more than AKC's registry (isn't the stud book open????). All information is confidential, she says, just like AKC, and no, I cannot see it. Now isn't that a nice state of affairs. It's not public and she is the only one on the planet who has access to it and knows who is in it.
Looks like it's back to Malinois for me, unless someone can suggest something else. I can understand a desire not to become over popular, but to have NO GROWTH unless you're willing to import for how many thousands of dollars? I'm back to my original question: just where is this breed going? Maybe this wasn't such a smart choice!
You could also look into adopting a Korean Jindo? ;-) Lots of rescue Jindos come in white...
http://www.jindorescue.org/available/cooper/cooper.html
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=14370973
http://www.jindorescue.org/available/kira2/kira.html
You all are going to think that I'm just terrible picky when I give you the following, but honestly, I'm just searching for something that will suit me and that I want to look at and isn't a major handful. I don't have a kennel, I only have two dogs at a time, seven years apart and that's all -- they are my constant companions and I want to be happy with them.
I understand that the Jindo is quite a different temperament than the Kishu -- that they are more aggressive or reactive and harder to handle. Rescued Jindos may be sweet or maybe not, but I'm not willing to go through the baggage or lack of socialization or bad treatment or whatever, in this type of temperament. Been there, done that. I don't want to have to work that hard.
In general I stay away from black dogs because they absorb the heat of the sun so much more readily than lighter colored dogs. The Kai that Brad has is a very handsome dog, but frankly, any dog that has blue spots on his tongue says trouble to me. :-) The blue tongue comes with a certain temperament that I don't want to deal with: Chow, Shar-Pei, some others. I've known a few blue-tongued dogs that were entirely unChow-like, but not many.
Lastly, the Shikoku is a beautiful dog but until there is a decision to become FSS registered with the AKC, I can't do performance events with them. That's a big drawback in my book. My dogs don't sit in my backyard -- I want to train them and showcase them and have fun with them and compete with them and learn their differences and similarities and how they think.
So that leaves the Kishu. Carleen now says she may be breeding a winter litter after all, but I don't know how far down the waiting list I am. We wait and see.
The perception of the Kishu is actually the reverse among Koreans. In Korea, they mix in Kishu blood into Jindos to create fighting dogs. They even do Kishu-pitbull mixings. The Jindo-Kishu mixes are referred to as Milyang gaes and are often passed off as Jindos to the unknowing. About a decade ago, people would claim any Jindo that bit a human family member was a Kishu mix.
Best of luck with your new pup, whatever you choose, and many ribbons to you, Marion.
>>>> I think you are in for a rude awakening...
Kishu owner's response when asked to describe the Kishu temperament:
"Stubborn, gental with children, protective of family (very protective), good with other dogs but males are very teritorial, lot of "wolf like" behavior, not good with cats and small animals (Riki has chased neighbors yorki thinking it was a rabbit), great guard dogs (Riki has chased a man breaking into neighbors house), very clean but sheds like all other Japanese breeds, Riki is hard headed and Yuki is mindful and listens well.
Kishus are very brave. Riki got out of the yard three years ago and got in a fight with a pibull. Although Riki had numerous puncture wounds on his neck and front arm, he tore the ear off of the pitbull and broke its front leg."
link
An example of a behavioral problem a Kishu owner had on this forum:
"My kishu has this problem. It's not aggression, but specifically jealousy. I would like to find out how to get her not to be this way. When she does get jealous of me paying attention to someone, she tries to bite them in the ankle--even if she is not in her own yard and at a neutral site. "
link
Another example...
"Anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with aggression and/or hunting instincts? I know there's a line between the two, but sometimes I can't tell if Kimi's trying to hunt kids (because they are running) or what. (No, she doesn't get off leash because she can't be trusted.)"
link
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"Kai that Brad has is a very handsome dog, but frankly, any dog that has blue spots on his tongue says trouble to me. :-) The blue tongue comes with a certain temperament that I don't want to deal with: Chow, Shar-Pei, some others."
>>>> I appreciate the compliment on Kona. But...
Are you are also the type of person who runs the other direction when you see a pit bull?
Full of judgment and light on facts.
Maybe pay a bit less attention to breed hype and actually do some research on real owner experiences before you jump to a conclusion regarding breeds you have never met or owned. The links I posted above are a good starting point for your research on real Kishu owner experiences, IMHO.
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"That's a big drawback in my book. My dogs don't sit in my backyard -- I want to train them and showcase them and have fun with them and compete with them and learn their differences and similarities and how they think."
>>>> How does taking an indigenous hunting breed, like the Kihsu, and training it to do fancy tricks and perform in pageants properly "showcase" the breed or teach you "how they think"? You think performing and prancing in shows is "fun" to a hunting breed like the Kishu? It may be fun for you.
Believe it or not, there is life outside the AKC. My Shikoku don't "sit in my backyard", they are out hiking with us several days a week, in the back country, where they belong. NOT in a fancy-pants show earning ribbons to inflate my ego.
If this is all you want out of your dog, why not get a Boarder Collie?
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and no applause or ribbons would be worth more than the trainers working in the next (obedience) ring coming over to the half wall during their long downs to tell me how great it was to observe Sage and I working and how our relationship made the difference for him.
top of the A frame
on the dog walk
mixed and "unrecognized" breeds can compete in UKC and NADAC agility, and possibly now AKC. Rally is open to all as well- it was specifically created to be Obedience for the Rest of Us.
Akc now welcomes all mixes in companion events. Too bad people lose sight of the goals when training.
If one looks, one can find other ways to compete and earn titles, even if it's not through the AKC. AKC isn't everything.
I think one of the reasons why the shikoku does not yet have anything to do with the AKC is because the AKC can be more harm than good. Plus, once you are in the FSS, once you start working along side such a big club, you are limited in how you can 'fine-tune' the breed standard.
But I can confirm that being a hunting breed does not exclude the dog from enjoying competitive obedience. My Shikoku Kuma LOVES his obedience and really is a very good and accurate obedience partner. At his first match, he scored a 196.5, and some of the lost points were due to handler error. And he routinely is at the top in his obedience classes (ie, a competition at the end of class to see which dog completes each stage perfectly, as announced by the instructor, those that don't complete the command perfectly get eliminated).
Although I am not sure if he can compete with AKC for obedience (maybe because of their new rule change?), he definitely can compete at UKC events. Having been to UKC sanctioned obedience events, the patterns are similar for the levels, although I think in some cases the UKC level might be slightly harder (eg, at Novice, the down stay while the honor dog works nearby).
And by the way, the UKC breed standard for the Kai says:
TEETH - The Kai has a complete set of good-size, evenly spaced, white teeth. A scissors bite is preferred but a level bite is acceptable. The tongue is generally spotted but may be pink or blue black.
And no, Brad, I don't have breed prejudices because the owner/handler is almost always at fault, but would I cross the street if there's a pit bull coming towards me? No. If it's lunging and barking and looking out of control, then yes.
To quote a website ( http://www.chowwelfare.com/cciw/blacktongue.htm )
"Spots on tongues are simply deposits of extra pigment, like birthmarks and freckles on people. Dogs often have spots of dark pigment on their skin, too, hiding under their coats. These spots can be large or small, many or few."
Breeds known to have members with
spotted tongues:
Airedale
Akita
Australian Cattle Dog
Australian Shepherd
Belgian Sheepdog,
Belgian Tervuren,
Belgian Malinois
Bichon Frise
Bouvier de Flandres
Bull Mastiff
Cairn Terrier
Chinese Shar-Pei
Collie
Cocker Spaniel
Dalmatian
Doberman Pinscher
English Setter
Eurasier
Fila Brasileiro
Flat-coated Retriever
German Shepherd
Golden Retriever
Gordon Setter
Great Pyrenees
Irish Setter
Kai Ken
Keeshond
Kerry Blue Terrier
Korean Jindo
Labrador Retriever
Mastiff
Mountain Cur
Newfoundland
Pomeranian
Pug
Rhodesian Ridgeback
Rottweiler
Shiba Inu
Siberian Husky
Soft-Coated Wheaten Terrier
Tibetan Mastiff
Secondly, I firmly believe that it is better to be doing SOMETHING with the dog rather than do nothing. I know that all of you agree. And we know that not many of us are going to hunt our dogs. Working with their brains, teaching them things EVEN IF those things are useless things like climbing over a dog walk or learning to do stays is better than nothing, and believe it or not, most dogs enjoy the exercise, the activity, the outings, the training, being with their owner and even the shows and trials.
So, it's your forum and you can do what you want, but I would appreciate not being belittled for engaging in those activities that I engage in. It's more than most folks do. I invite you to go back and read my introduction because I won't repeat all that here. Suffice to say that if I were interested in a conformation dog, I would not be thinking about a Kishu which won't see an AKC conformation ring in a decade -- now THAT, in my book, is "prancing" around a ring. I do it enough to finish the Championship because I happen to buy good dogs from good breeders and I do it for the breeder, and then we never set another foot in the breed ring. Performance and companionship are my games.