On venues other than AKC: yes, of course there are other venues. We do extensive NADAC agility here, and some TDAA (teacup) agility which sounds really foo-foo but it's simply agility for smaller dogs, those 17 inches and under at the shoulder. Some smaller Shibas might even qualify. I'd do UKC in a heartbeat if it were closer, but the fact is that I live in Helena, Montana and UKC shows of any type are few and far -- like Denver, Spokane, SLC. But the most common shows are AKC, and so I need a dog that I can play with at AKC shows. The Shikoku was not one of them, until now.
AKC shows have historically only been for AKC-recognized purebreds, plus a few breeds in the Miscellaneous classes. They are going to open their obedience and agility doors to all mixes and all breeds very soon (Jan. 1, 2010, maybe?), but it willl depend on the hosting club to decide whether to include them. There are some logistics to be worked out. So yes, we can all work our Shikokus now in AKC events, provided they are spayed/neutered. That would restrict some people with breeding stock. The Kishu was already "there" and so I chose it, plus I like the look of the breed and I think I could handle it's disposition.
First I want to say that it is a gross insult to suggest that anyone who doesn't take his dog out and hike in the woods and/or hunt with them is not fulfilling the dog's true nature. Or to say that all of us who do agility or obedience are "prancing" our dogs around in a ring and collecting ribbons.
I think that what people are saying is that Kais/Shikokus are truly happiest out hiking. I have a Kai and I can say that Kai's, along with the other Nihon Ken, have very high prey drives. It's inherent to their breed. A dog with a high prey drive sees the time that he/she has hiking as a time to track/hunt for things.
Now, a dog with a lower prey drive may not see hiking as a fun thing. I guess you would have to go on a 7 hour hike with a Kai and see how they can be completely engrossed and engaged they are in a make believe hunt that keeps them wanting more. Once you have experienced the joy it brings them to be out, you want to hike with your Kai all the time. I'm an avid hiker, and I know that Jen and Brad are as well. I'm guessing that Brad was just trying to put into words how happy his Shikoku and Kai are hiking. If they are anything like Koda, then hiking is the best activity in the world for them.
Now as for the ribbon comment. Many forum members participate in a wide variety of activities that include showing and competing. Most have won ribbons. To all of you I say "Job well done!". I don't think anyone will think lowly of you for being active with your dogs.
"So, it's your forum and you can do what you want, but I would appreciate not being belittled for engaging in those activities that I engage in."
I hope you didn't feel any of us were saying that. In fact, I think that 3 of us said that our Nihon Ken enjoy agility, and I must say *braggingly* that they are very good at it.
I do have a difficult time when people lump "Asia" into one ethnicity/culture or draw lines between them. That's like people telling me I'm European. I'm not. I was born in Italy, and have a different culture and language than other Europeans. It's the same with lumping China/Japan/ and Korea together. I'm sorry, but it's a little offensive and stereotypical. I hate to say that, but....well it is.
I also have a difficult time when you tell me that my Kai is like a Chow/Sharpei because of his black tongue. My neighbors lab has a black tongue are they the same? It's bold to make a statement about a breed you have never met. I invite you if you ever come out to California to meet Koda. I assure you, you will never compare him to a Chow/Sharpei again.
On research: Brad, other than fooling around on the internet, I haven't done extensive research, haven't found much, haven't read any Japanese books, but if by research you mean I could learn something that would "rudely awaken me" about temperament from the links you provided, here's what I could glean:
The bit about hunting was interesting, but I'm not gonna do it. Have nothing against hunting down wild boar, but I'm not gonna do it. The REAL owner experiences that you linked to on aggression and possessiveness and jealousy and nipping point to poor socialization and/or management practices and I don't plan on getting into that kind of trouble. It is a fact that 50% of dog owners out there don't understand the time and effort they should be putting into their new puppies from 8 to 16 weeks of age and beyond; and they clearly went awry in their training if they are nipping/biting.
Finally, many of the responses to help these individuals suggested ..... obedience training! Go figure. Apparently obedience training is OK for individuals to help them control their dogs at home, but it's "ego driven" to test that obedience at obedience trials?
"On origins: I don't think it is such a stretch to believe that a couple thousand years ago all of these dogs came from the same stock. Look at the similarities in appearance of all six of the Japanese breeds..."
>>>> Of course they are all related at some level, as is the Lab (descendant from the Newfie, a molosser) and the Tibetan Mastiff (said to be the predecessor of all molossers), that doesn't mean a Lab acts like a Tibetan Mastiff.
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"On performance: First I want to say that it is a gross insult to suggest that anyone who doesn't take his dog out and hike in the woods and/or hunt with them is not fulfilling the dog's true nature. Or to say that all of us who do agility or obedience are "prancing" our dogs around in a ring and collecting ribbons. Or that we do it for our own ego. I don't even pick up ribbons anymore. I have boxes and bags of them. The titles are proof, however, that we have accomplished something together and as such, I do value them."
"Secondly, I firmly believe that it is better to be doing SOMETHING with the dog rather than do nothing."
"So, it's your forum and you can do what you want, but I would appreciate not being belittled for engaging in those activities that I engage in."
>>> The irony here is that I think we are actually in agreement. My point was actually that if a dog owner doesn't partake in "performance events", it doesn't mean that their dogs are just sitting in a backyard doing nothing; which is what you implied, and I know many of us find that to be "a gross insult ".
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"On research: Brad, other than fooling around on the internet, I haven't done extensive research, haven't found much, haven't read any Japanese books, but if by research you mean I could learn something that would "rudely awaken me" about temperament from the links you provided, here's what I could glean:
The bit about hunting was interesting, but I'm not gonna do it. Have nothing against hunting down wild boar, but I'm not gonna do it. The REAL owner experiences that you linked to on aggression...
...Finally, many of the responses to help these individuals suggested ..... obedience training! ..."
>>>> I totally agree that obedience and socialization is the answer to issues like I quoted above for the Kishu, we are in total agreement there.
My point was that there are 2 Kishu examples where owners have similar problems to those said to be found in the Jindo breed, Chow, Shar-Pei... So, if socialization and obedience is the answer to those issues with the Kishu, then why do you find it necessary to paint an entire breed(s) - Jindo, Chow, Shar-Pei - with such a broad stroke? I mean here are examples of KISHU, the breed you say doesn't have those issues, with those types of issues... Logically, that would mean a Jindo, Chow, or Shar-Pei has the same potential for (or against) those issues as a Kishu does.
I have no issue with you owning a Kishu and doing your thing with them, honestly I think it will help the breed, my point was just that I think it should be clear that in some cases Kishu are more reactive and "aggressive" than the Jindo, Chow, or Shar-Pei and it's a slippery slope to start generalizing a breed that is so closely related.
If you get a Kishu, you will be owning a breed that some people see as dangerous, and, therefore, you may fall victim to the same type of breed profiling you are doing now toward the Jindo, Chow, & Shar-Pei (or ANY dog with a spot on its tongue).
Seems strange to me you would pick a breed (the Kishu) that is (as you pointed out in your "On origins" comment) so closely related to the very breeds you seem to dislike.
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"Apparently obedience training is OK for individuals to help them control their dogs at home, but it's "ego driven" to test that obedience at obedience trials?"
>>>> I'm sorry if I offended you with that comment. Truthfully, IMHO, yes, it is "ego driven" to show or title a dog in trials, unless it's specifically for a breeding program, because the dog and the general public doesn't care if YOU have titles on your dog. You could have the most obedient dog on the planet and the average person (and average dog) wouldn't care a single bit if it had a title or not. The only person that cares about the title is you, or a person involved in those events, or a person buying a dog from a working kennel. So if the titles are only for you, then it is "ego driven".
Calia: Thanks for the little videos. I LIKE that the Kishu plays and always has something in his mouth (according to Carleen). If the dog will play, he can learn to have fun in training, because most of training is a form of play.
Tara: You'd have to agree that these six breeds plus the Chow and Shar-pei are more like each OTHER than they are to Bloodhounds or Salukis. The fact that they all come from the Asian part of the world strengthens that genetic relationship. That's all that I was trying to say. Breeders have gradually changed their temperaments, of course. Your Kai is not a Chow, but he is closer to a Chow genetically and visually than he is to a Chihuahua.
I do realize I'm getting one of the six breeds that come from this whole Asian lineage, and therefore I understand I will have to work harder to socialize and expose him to his world early. I still think they are beautiful, athletic and I'd like to have one and see what I can teach him.
Brad: On competition, I don't think of it as ego. I see it as competition, as sport, the same way a runner wants to be first in his race. Nobody remembers or cares who the Olympic Gold Medal pole vaulter was either -- why does HE do it?
I don't think there's anything wrong with "ego". All of us are motivated by it, and it's completely normal. Just read Freud.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I'm not saying that somehow way back when Jindos and Kais or possibly Chows and Kais were related. 300 years ago, my family went to Italy from Egypt. I can just watch the American movie Gladiator and see that, but I don't believe myself to be Arabian. Moreover, it was a more than a little insulting to hear that I probably have a bad dog cause his tongue has black spots like a Chow. It was a negative comment putting down our dogs. It's going to bother me. Oh, and to answer your question there is nothing about my Kai that would remind me of a Sharpei or Chow.
In fact, I know a woman who rescued what someone thought to be a Chow because of a black spotted tongue. She owns a Chow rescue, so they sent the dog to her. She knew right away this was NO Chow. She is now the proud owner of 10 Chows and 1 Kai Ken. She agrees with me that her Kai is NOTHING like her Chows and she is amazed that a shelter worker would have called him a Chow because of his tongue. Actually, she thought they were pretty ignorant for doing so.
"On competition, I don't think of it as ego. I see it as competition, as sport, the same way a runner wants to be first in his race. Nobody remembers or cares who the Olympic Gold Medal pole vaulter was either -- why does HE do it?" >>>> Good point. Touche. )
"If you get a Kishu, you will be owning a breed that some people see as dangerous, and, therefore, you may fall victim to the same type of breed profiling you are doing now toward the Jindo, Chow, & Shar-Pei (or ANY dog with a spot on its tongue)."
Yes, I know. But MY dog won't have black spots on his tongue!!! LOL That makes him better, you see. Just kidding. I think more people will see "Akita" in him than anything else, and I'll just have to be mindful that this dog will be different.
The video of the Kishu playing with a feather duster had me wondering whether the owners were afraid of taking it away from him. He gave a pretty good long stare at one point that I would not have challenged.
"I would appreciate not being belittled for engaging in those activities that I engage in. It's more than most folks do."
If I have learned anything from a certain sage I study under, it is that More definitely does not = Better, or Balanced or even Fair for that matter.
You need to quit belittling the non-competition dogs as neglected, do-nothing layabouts with wasting potential. Some of us learn, train and discover very challenging and valuable things in our lives with dogs that rarely anyone recognizes and comes by and pats us on the back for, never mind show off for others. If you have really "been there and done that" with reactive or difficult dogs, then you would NEVER disparage and belittle the work we do, or the dogs who feel most happy, secure and in their 'zone' staying home and catching frisbees for the kids than going to canine slamdances, track meets and sitting for bubble test exams.
It is a lot of emotional work on your own self and expectations, a lot of training and study, a lot of learning to really SEE the dog, and acknowledging what is true for HIM: listening and understanding a creature who isn't by the book and letting go of your own ego in the process to accept and embrace this dog for who he is and what activities are relevant to him. Not what you wish he enjoyed or was good at, and not what you 'got him for.'
The "backyard" drum you keep pounding is the very attitude I have had to dispel in my environment and self: that good owners/trainers can and do take their dogs everywhere (and if they are REALLY good, off leash everywhere), that unfortunate dogs are stuck at home because their owners don't try or can't manage to train them. It is arrogant to believe this very limiting way of thinking that prevents us from truly understanding the many things a great dog can be.
If you can get over this, then I am MORE than happy to celebrate your training victories and relationship growth with your dogs with you as well. So get the dog you want and by all means compete, but kindly do it without judging the rest of us who don't.
"Yes, I know. But MY dog won't have black spots on his tongue!!! LOL That makes him better, you see. Just kidding. I think more people will see "Akita" in him than anything else, and I'll just have to be mindful that this dog will be different." >>>> That made me LOL. You know tho, now that you said that, you will get the only Kishu in the US with spots on it's tongue.
>>>> That made me LOL. You know tho, now that you said that, you will get the only Kishu in the US with spots on it's tongue.
HA! Murphy's Law every time. You're probably right.
But you know, nobody needs to know that these dogs are difficult. What if I brought one into my doggy community and told everyone that they were the sweetest dogs around, just a little shy -- never mention that they are related to the Akita? Most people won't care enough to look them up. It's all first impressions, no? So now I have a dog that "needs help" to overcome his shyness... which is way different than saying, this dog will grow up aloof, even aggressive with strangers.
Thanks for the info, Sangmort/Osy, on doing italics. So you have to send in your comments first, then go back and edit them? Or can you put in the symbols while you are composing the message?
Chrystal: If I hadn't read some of your background with Sage, I would say thou protestest too much. But somewhere I was going to say that I totally get the way you and Sage live together. I have no problem with that, because you know exactly what you've got, and you have no high falutin' expectations for him or for what he can tolerate. I totally get it, and I don't look down on that life style.
I guess it's people who don't do what they need to do with a puppy and then later have expectations for their dog when the dog can't perform, that are most disappointing. The show owners who bring in their 6-month old puppy into a cavernous show building on a string around his neck and drag it, saying this is the first time the dog has been out of the backyard or on a leash and it's really time to start socializing this dog. Well, I think it's too late to help it that day because that dog is terrified.
We all have the choice to keep our young dogs in our backyards, for their entire lives. The argument has always been that if there's no change in that dog's life, everything is hunky dory. God forbid, however, if you have to put that dog into a car and drive it to a vet's. And have a strange vet touch him. THAT'S the overriding reason to accustom a young puppy to all kinds of stimuli while he's still in the learning, impressionable stages.
If you rescue or get a dog that is older, there are a whole different set of values for that dog. I do understand and accept that.
"But you know, nobody needs to know that these dogs are difficult. What if I brought one into my doggy community and told everyone that they were the sweetest dogs around, just a little shy -- never mention that they are related to the Akita? Most people won't care enough to look them up. It's all first impressions, no? So now I have a dog that "needs help" to overcome his shyness... which is way different than saying, this dog will grow up aloof, even aggressive with strangers."
>>>> Sure, I see your point, and agree that the first impression is key and that the general public doesn't need to know the details of your dog/breed and it's qualities. You shouldn't walk into a situation and assuming they will fail due to their breed. But I think it would be dangerous to not tell potential owners those things, not in a "this will happen to your dog" way, but more in a "if you aren't diligent in socialization this can happen" way.
It's the nature vs. nurture thing. Chrystal and I chat about this a lot. I do believe there are some genetic breed traits that you just cannot train and socialize your way around. At some point you have to just look at your dogs and say "he is what he is", and learn to appreciate them. Some of those qualities may be a bigger deal than others.
With a few of our breeds (dogs), their genetic breed qualities set them up to fail in the type of situation you want for your Kishu... While others are setup for success (like a BC or a GSD). I am really a big-time supporter of "working" your dog (in whatever that is: showing, obedience, dance, hunting, hiking...), I just hate it when a dog (breed), especially one as rare and as special as the Nihonken, are set up for failure. Sure, you CAN teach a Shiba to be off-lead reliable, it CAN happen, but the majority of dog owners aren't gonna put in the amount of effort needed to get to that point - so it's a lot easier to just tell them it cannot be done (or its very hard) so they are not being set up to fail (or in this case the dog is not being set up to fail)... because, in some cases, that failure may mean the end of that's dogs life.
Like a CO doing S&R or therapy work - sure there are a few that do those things, but it's not realistic to tell your average dog owner that THEY can do that with their CO. It takes a special owner AND a special dog for that.
So, please don't take my "matter of fact" approach to the breed's qualities as me being a "negative Nancy", or that I am implying YOU cannot do those things with a Kishu (or any breed), I'm not... I just don't want the general public to have a false understanding of what these dogs are (or are not) so that they are not set up for failure.
"On competition, I don't think of it as ego. I see it as competition, as sport, the same way a runner wants to be first in his race. Nobody remembers or cares who the Olympic Gold Medal pole vaulter was either -- why does HE do it?"
Debate is good, exchanging opinions good. I've been enjoying reading the thread, makes me think a bit.
And now I will threadjack.
I've been friendly online with some hunters down south in Kyushu that hunt with several types of dogs, but also have some of the most famous working Kishu lines. Just the other day one of them mailed me and asked if I was interested in a pup. They don't sell their dogs, they breed them to work, and place them with hunters they know. So... I'm thinking about it.
Well, if it's any help Shigeru, you're welcome to send me the Kishu pup or Haru, I'm open to it - you know, to help out. I mean, I'm just looking out for you, making the decision easy. :oP
Comments
AKC shows have historically only been for AKC-recognized purebreds, plus a few breeds in the Miscellaneous classes. They are going to open their obedience and agility doors to all mixes and all breeds very soon (Jan. 1, 2010, maybe?), but it willl depend on the hosting club to decide whether to include them. There are some logistics to be worked out. So yes, we can all work our Shikokus now in AKC events, provided they are spayed/neutered. That would restrict some people with breeding stock. The Kishu was already "there" and so I chose it, plus I like the look of the breed and I think I could handle it's disposition.
I think that what people are saying is that Kais/Shikokus are truly happiest out hiking. I have a Kai and I can say that Kai's, along with the other Nihon Ken, have very high prey drives. It's inherent to their breed. A dog with a high prey drive sees the time that he/she has hiking as a time to track/hunt for things.
Now, a dog with a lower prey drive may not see hiking as a fun thing. I guess you would have to go on a 7 hour hike with a Kai and see how they can be completely engrossed and engaged they are in a make believe hunt that keeps them wanting more. Once you have experienced the joy it brings them to be out, you want to hike with your Kai all the time. I'm an avid hiker, and I know that Jen and Brad are as well. I'm guessing that Brad was just trying to put into words how happy his Shikoku and Kai are hiking. If they are anything like Koda, then hiking is the best activity in the world for them.
Now as for the ribbon comment. Many forum members participate in a wide variety of activities that include showing and competing. Most have won ribbons. To all of you I say "Job well done!". I don't think anyone will think lowly of you for being active with your dogs.
"So, it's your forum and you can do what you want, but I would appreciate not being belittled for engaging in those activities that I engage in."
I hope you didn't feel any of us were saying that. In fact, I think that 3 of us said that our Nihon Ken enjoy agility, and I must say *braggingly* that they are very good at it.
I do have a difficult time when people lump "Asia" into one ethnicity/culture or draw lines between them. That's like people telling me I'm European. I'm not. I was born in Italy, and have a different culture and language than other Europeans. It's the same with lumping China/Japan/ and Korea together. I'm sorry, but it's a little offensive and stereotypical. I hate to say that, but....well it is.
I also have a difficult time when you tell me that my Kai is like a Chow/Sharpei because of his black tongue. My neighbors lab has a black tongue are they the same? It's bold to make a statement about a breed you have never met. I invite you if you ever come out to California to meet Koda. I assure you, you will never compare him to a Chow/Sharpei again.
The bit about hunting was interesting, but I'm not gonna do it. Have nothing against hunting down wild boar, but I'm not gonna do it. The REAL owner experiences that you linked to on aggression and possessiveness and jealousy and nipping point to poor socialization and/or management practices and I don't plan on getting into that kind of trouble. It is a fact that 50% of dog owners out there don't understand the time and effort they should be putting into their new puppies from 8 to 16 weeks of age and beyond; and they clearly went awry in their training if they are nipping/biting.
Finally, many of the responses to help these individuals suggested ..... obedience training! Go figure. Apparently obedience training is OK for individuals to help them control their dogs at home, but it's "ego driven" to test that obedience at obedience trials?
>>>> Of course they are all related at some level, as is the Lab (descendant from the Newfie, a molosser) and the Tibetan Mastiff (said to be the predecessor of all molossers), that doesn't mean a Lab acts like a Tibetan Mastiff.
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"On performance: First I want to say that it is a gross insult to suggest that anyone who doesn't take his dog out and hike in the woods and/or hunt with them is not fulfilling the dog's true nature. Or to say that all of us who do agility or obedience are "prancing" our dogs around in a ring and collecting ribbons. Or that we do it for our own ego. I don't even pick up ribbons anymore. I have boxes and bags of them. The titles are proof, however, that we have accomplished something together and as such, I do value them."
"Secondly, I firmly believe that it is better to be doing SOMETHING with the dog rather than do nothing."
"So, it's your forum and you can do what you want, but I would appreciate not being belittled for engaging in those activities that I engage in."
>>> The irony here is that I think we are actually in agreement. My point was actually that if a dog owner doesn't partake in "performance events", it doesn't mean that their dogs are just sitting in a backyard doing nothing; which is what you implied, and I know many of us find that to be "a gross insult ".
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"On research: Brad, other than fooling around on the internet, I haven't done extensive research, haven't found much, haven't read any Japanese books, but if by research you mean I could learn something that would "rudely awaken me" about temperament from the links you provided, here's what I could glean:
The bit about hunting was interesting, but I'm not gonna do it. Have nothing against hunting down wild boar, but I'm not gonna do it. The REAL owner experiences that you linked to on aggression...
...Finally, many of the responses to help these individuals suggested ..... obedience training! ..."
>>>> I totally agree that obedience and socialization is the answer to issues like I quoted above for the Kishu, we are in total agreement there.
My point was that there are 2 Kishu examples where owners have similar problems to those said to be found in the Jindo breed, Chow, Shar-Pei... So, if socialization and obedience is the answer to those issues with the Kishu, then why do you find it necessary to paint an entire breed(s) - Jindo, Chow, Shar-Pei - with such a broad stroke? I mean here are examples of KISHU, the breed you say doesn't have those issues, with those types of issues... Logically, that would mean a Jindo, Chow, or Shar-Pei has the same potential for (or against) those issues as a Kishu does.
I have no issue with you owning a Kishu and doing your thing with them, honestly I think it will help the breed, my point was just that I think it should be clear that in some cases Kishu are more reactive and "aggressive" than the Jindo, Chow, or Shar-Pei and it's a slippery slope to start generalizing a breed that is so closely related.
If you get a Kishu, you will be owning a breed that some people see as dangerous, and, therefore, you may fall victim to the same type of breed profiling you are doing now toward the Jindo, Chow, & Shar-Pei (or ANY dog with a spot on its tongue).
Seems strange to me you would pick a breed (the Kishu) that is (as you pointed out in your "On origins" comment) so closely related to the very breeds you seem to dislike.
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"Apparently obedience training is OK for individuals to help them control their dogs at home, but it's "ego driven" to test that obedience at obedience trials?"
>>>> I'm sorry if I offended you with that comment. Truthfully, IMHO, yes, it is "ego driven" to show or title a dog in trials, unless it's specifically for a breeding program, because the dog and the general public doesn't care if YOU have titles on your dog. You could have the most obedient dog on the planet and the average person (and average dog) wouldn't care a single bit if it had a title or not. The only person that cares about the title is you, or a person involved in those events, or a person buying a dog from a working kennel. So if the titles are only for you, then it is "ego driven".
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Tara: You'd have to agree that these six breeds plus the Chow and Shar-pei are more like each OTHER than they are to Bloodhounds or Salukis. The fact that they all come from the Asian part of the world strengthens that genetic relationship. That's all that I was trying to say. Breeders have gradually changed their temperaments, of course. Your Kai is not a Chow, but he is closer to a Chow genetically and visually than he is to a Chihuahua.
I do realize I'm getting one of the six breeds that come from this whole Asian lineage, and therefore I understand I will have to work harder to socialize and expose him to his world early. I still think they are beautiful, athletic and I'd like to have one and see what I can teach him.
Brad: On competition, I don't think of it as ego. I see it as competition, as sport, the same way a runner wants to be first in his race. Nobody remembers or cares who the Olympic Gold Medal pole vaulter was either -- why does HE do it?
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I'm not saying that somehow way back when Jindos and Kais or possibly Chows and Kais were related. 300 years ago, my family went to Italy from Egypt. I can just watch the American movie Gladiator and see that, but I don't believe myself to be Arabian. Moreover, it was a more than a little insulting to hear that I probably have a bad dog cause his tongue has black spots like a Chow. It was a negative comment putting down our dogs. It's going to bother me. Oh, and to answer your question there is nothing about my Kai that would remind me of a Sharpei or Chow.
In fact, I know a woman who rescued what someone thought to be a Chow because of a black spotted tongue. She owns a Chow rescue, so they sent the dog to her. She knew right away this was NO Chow. She is now the proud owner of 10 Chows and 1 Kai Ken. She agrees with me that her Kai is NOTHING like her Chows and she is amazed that a shelter worker would have called him a Chow because of his tongue. Actually, she thought they were pretty ignorant for doing so.
>>>> Good point. Touche.
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Yes, I know. But MY dog won't have black spots on his tongue!!! LOL That makes him better, you see. Just kidding. I think more people will see "Akita" in him than anything else, and I'll just have to be mindful that this dog will be different.
The video of the Kishu playing with a feather duster had me wondering whether the owners were afraid of taking it away from him. He gave a pretty good long stare at one point that I would not have challenged.
If I have learned anything from a certain sage I study under, it is that More definitely does not = Better, or Balanced or even Fair for that matter.
You need to quit belittling the non-competition dogs as neglected, do-nothing layabouts with wasting potential. Some of us learn, train and discover very challenging and valuable things in our lives with dogs that rarely anyone recognizes and comes by and pats us on the back for, never mind show off for others. If you have really "been there and done that" with reactive or difficult dogs, then you would NEVER disparage and belittle the work we do, or the dogs who feel most happy, secure and in their 'zone' staying home and catching frisbees for the kids than going to canine slamdances, track meets and sitting for bubble test exams.
It is a lot of emotional work on your own self and expectations, a lot of training and study, a lot of learning to really SEE the dog, and acknowledging what is true for HIM: listening and understanding a creature who isn't by the book and letting go of your own ego in the process to accept and embrace this dog for who he is and what activities are relevant to him. Not what you wish he enjoyed or was good at, and not what you 'got him for.'
The "backyard" drum you keep pounding is the very attitude I have had to dispel in my environment and self: that good owners/trainers can and do take their dogs everywhere (and if they are REALLY good, off leash everywhere), that unfortunate dogs are stuck at home because their owners don't try or can't manage to train them. It is arrogant to believe this very limiting way of thinking that prevents us from truly understanding the many things a great dog can be.
If you can get over this, then I am MORE than happy to celebrate your training victories and relationship growth with your dogs with you as well. So get the dog you want and by all means compete, but kindly do it without judging the rest of us who don't.
>>>> That made me LOL. You know tho, now that you said that, you will get the only Kishu in the US with spots on it's tongue.
That's how it would go for me, at least.
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HA! Murphy's Law every time. You're probably right.
But you know, nobody needs to know that these dogs are difficult. What if I brought one into my doggy community and told everyone that they were the sweetest dogs around, just a little shy -- never mention that they are related to the Akita? Most people won't care enough to look them up. It's all first impressions, no? So now I have a dog that "needs help" to overcome his shyness... which is way different than saying, this dog will grow up aloof, even aggressive with strangers.
I guess it's people who don't do what they need to do with a puppy and then later have expectations for their dog when the dog can't perform, that are most disappointing. The show owners who bring in their 6-month old puppy into a cavernous show building on a string around his neck and drag it, saying this is the first time the dog has been out of the backyard or on a leash and it's really time to start socializing this dog. Well, I think it's too late to help it that day because that dog is terrified.
We all have the choice to keep our young dogs in our backyards, for their entire lives. The argument has always been that if there's no change in that dog's life, everything is hunky dory. God forbid, however, if you have to put that dog into a car and drive it to a vet's. And have a strange vet touch him. THAT'S the overriding reason to accustom a young puppy to all kinds of stimuli while he's still in the learning, impressionable stages.
If you rescue or get a dog that is older, there are a whole different set of values for that dog. I do understand and accept that.
>>>> Sure, I see your point, and agree that the first impression is key and that the general public doesn't need to know the details of your dog/breed and it's qualities. You shouldn't walk into a situation and assuming they will fail due to their breed. But I think it would be dangerous to not tell potential owners those things, not in a "this will happen to your dog" way, but more in a "if you aren't diligent in socialization this can happen" way.
It's the nature vs. nurture thing. Chrystal and I chat about this a lot. I do believe there are some genetic breed traits that you just cannot train and socialize your way around. At some point you have to just look at your dogs and say "he is what he is", and learn to appreciate them. Some of those qualities may be a bigger deal than others.
With a few of our breeds (dogs), their genetic breed qualities set them up to fail in the type of situation you want for your Kishu... While others are setup for success (like a BC or a GSD). I am really a big-time supporter of "working" your dog (in whatever that is: showing, obedience, dance, hunting, hiking...), I just hate it when a dog (breed), especially one as rare and as special as the Nihonken, are set up for failure. Sure, you CAN teach a Shiba to be off-lead reliable, it CAN happen, but the majority of dog owners aren't gonna put in the amount of effort needed to get to that point - so it's a lot easier to just tell them it cannot be done (or its very hard) so they are not being set up to fail (or in this case the dog is not being set up to fail)... because, in some cases, that failure may mean the end of that's dogs life.
Like a CO doing S&R or therapy work - sure there are a few that do those things, but it's not realistic to tell your average dog owner that THEY can do that with their CO. It takes a special owner AND a special dog for that.
So, please don't take my "matter of fact" approach to the breed's qualities as me being a "negative Nancy", or that I am implying YOU cannot do those things with a Kishu (or any breed), I'm not... I just don't want the general public to have a false understanding of what these dogs are (or are not) so that they are not set up for failure.
Ya know?
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I remember Sergey Bubka pretty well......
And now I will threadjack.
I've been friendly online with some hunters down south in Kyushu that hunt with several types of dogs, but also have some of the most famous working Kishu lines. Just the other day one of them mailed me and asked if I was interested in a pup. They don't sell their dogs, they breed them to work, and place them with hunters they know. So... I'm thinking about it.