I just don't want the general public to have a false understanding of what these dogs are (or are not) so that they are not set up for failure.
Ya know?
I had to think a little about this post, Brad. One part of me says that to tell the public that it's hard to do xyz with this dog or this breed is rather restrictive; it sets the tone for this person's relationship with this dog. On the other hand, you're right about how much effort the majority is going to put into something that's hard, so perhaps it's the kinder thing to do for the greater good of the group, so to speak. That's a very thoughtful post.
One more point about socialization/exposure (and again I wish we had one English word to incorporate these two concepts):
I do believe there are some genetic breed traits that you just cannot train and socialize your way around. At some point you have to just look at your dogs and say "he is what he is", and learn to appreciate them. Some of those qualities may be a bigger deal than others.
I agree wholeheartedly. There's another reason to get that puppy out early and often. If you don't socialize, you won't know for sure whether a negative trait that you're seeing is due to lack of socialization, or something innate in the genetic makeup of the dog. Using the Kishu and shyness probably isn't a good example, since aloofness is accepted. But let's say you have a Lab that is afraid to walk down the street. If you did not socialize him to become unafraid in most normal environments,you'll never know whether his fearfulness was poor temperament. If you know in your heart of hearts that you did EVERYthing you could to expose this puppy to his world, and he's STILL fearful in certain circumstances, then you have a clearer picture of what you have. And what you should be staying away from breeding, perhaps. (I'm not talking here of a short fear period burst that might crop up in some breeds that goes away in a well-conditioned, stable dog.)
I would think that any breeder wants and needs to have this kind of information about a given puppy or about his line, so a puppy buyer could be of real service here by doing this socializing homework and paying attention.
I don't know the italics trick, but I DO know that
"If you don't socialize, you won't know for sure whether a negative trait that you're seeing is due to lack of socialization, or something innate in the genetic makeup of the dog."
is a perfectly stated point! and so is this:
"If you know in your heart of hearts that you did EVERYthing you could to expose this puppy to his world, and he's STILL fearful in certain circumstances, then you have a clearer picture of what you have."
One can do everything well enough and STILL end up with a neophobic, wary or reactive dog- at which point, he is what he is and his activities and enrichments need to be tailored to him so he can be the best he can be. Some breeds come with pre-installed better odds for active social lives full of new stimuli, people and places than others do- and individuals within breeds can be at the top or bottom of the window for those odds, regardless of how well you prepare them as pups. All we can do is no harm and to help each pup reach their own individual potential, and then respect it.
Can I ask a question to you Marion....What if, just what if, you do get a Kishu and he/she is unable to perform on your level? What will happen then?
From the other thread that I started you can see that I am totally ignorant about Kishu. I have never met one, nor am I talented enough to compete so I wouldn't know if it was a good match. I'm just asking.
Can I ask a question to you Marion....What if, just what if, you do get a Kishu and he/she is unable to perform on your level? What will happen then?
I get rid of him, take him to the shelter, or sell him to the highest bidder. Maybe the lowest bidder.
JUST KIDDING!!! I'd never do that -- my dogs are mine for life.
Tara, there's nothing that I am going to ask my Kishu to do that he will be unable to perform, because first I'm not asking for rocket science, and secondly I don't have the same expectations that I would have if I had a Border Collie. I am not expecting top scores in obedience or agility -- if I did, I'd pick another breed. But I don't happen to like BC's -- they're quirky, smart, and no two look alike. I want a breed that looks like a breed. And everyone around here has one -- either that or an Aussie.
But I digress. I'm asking for simple obedience (sit, down, come, stay, heel) that all good dogs should have anyway at the beginning. That takes care of CD and beginning Rally work. I keep motivation up by steadily increasing the palatability of what he works for -- all the way up to steak if I have to, interspersed with lots of play/tug. Most dogs find agility, if carefully taught and pre-conditioned in the puppy socialization process, to be rewarding pretty much all by itself. I see no problem in a Kishu getting the job done. He doesn't have to be blazing fast and I don't expect him to be. Any dog can track, so I just have to guide him on how to indicate something when he finds it.
I have a lot of patience. I work slowly through the titles, so that we learn things together as we go. I can teach a retrieve to just about any dog, but as mouthy as these seem to be, I don't think that's going to be a problem. My Vallhund was not a natural obedience dog either, and because of his stays, did not get a CD until age 6. Never have I waited this long to get a CD on a dog. But we're still working, still playing and I never give up.
My long-term goals are to continue interacting and working and practicing with a dog until he's into double digits in age, or something else stops him (like my Malinois' blindness).
So back to your question: I don't foresee any reason that he would be unable to perform, in some fashion. I don't have a preconceived "level;" the level matches the dog and what he can do. If he's slow, I need to motivate him more. If he's disinterested, this is an owner/handler problem, and I need to motivate him more.
The only real handicap would be if for some physical reason he couldn't jump, but the breed looks pretty athletic to me. What I'm concerned about the most, frankly, is getting him over hesitation towards people. He doesn't have to love everybody, but he should be confident enough to stand his ground, not back away, and I may work harder than I have with other dogs to get to that point. It can be done, I think, but trust me, we will be a blur of activity during that 8 to 16 week period, and beyond.
And Tara, it doesn't take talent to do what I do. It's not for everyone and I'm not saying you should or shouldn't, but the way we all started was usually at an obedience class, then with the encouragement of our instructor we attended a show or two to see what we had to do, then we trained some more and then we entered. Then we discovered whether competition was our cup of tea -- some people cannot take it, become nervous wrecks and physically ill; for others it's an adrenaline rush. You have to be a little bit of a ham to be out there in the middle of a ring surrounded by onlookers, just you and the dog, never knowing what the dog is going to do. I personally like the rush, I like the fact that competition gives me a reason to work and interact with my dog (would I teach him much if I knew I was never going into a ring? I don't know.) Yes, it's an ego trip, but the dog wants to be with me, first of all; and they do enjoy learning and eating tidbits and trying to figure out what you're trying to communicate to them. If you're doing this right, most of the training is just a series of games to the dog. They have FUN! And they get to eat good treats.
We spend three minutes in the ring. The rest of the time we walk the hills, fetch thrown balls, sniff around whatever grounds we're on. It's definitely not all work and I don't even spend that much time at training. A lot more time is spent on running, exercising, being outside, because I like dogs that are lean and fit, and they have to have exercise to get that way. Not to mention a high-drive dog is a lot easier to live with in the house if he's vigorously exercised.
If you're anything like me...you get the Japanese dogs as "active working pets". Do everything and anything you can with them and see what they excel in. Then you leave all the Championships stuff to the Malinois . However, the Japanese dogs aren't without their titles...just there's no expectation that they're gonna make the World Team in any venue.
I think they have a great advantage in Agility though. Aside from Hunting...this seems to be their calling.
To be honest though...most of our Nihon Ken breeding stock in North America all come from mainly modern Japanese Conformation dogs. Meaning, more emphasis was put into the appearance of the dog then their working attributes (i.e. a good nose for scentwork, drive, impact - on taking down prey, etc). We're limited on breeding stock...but eventually a few future breeders will start to selectively breed on working attributes for a more true/correct working dog (dogs bred for the sole purpose of workability rather then appearance in the conformation ring <--- though, they should still qualify in the show ring...form follows function).
It makes me happy to see people who get dogs and work them...no matter what it is they do. Compete in performance/sportwork events or taking adventures in the great outdoors.
Anyways...not U.S., but I have a Shiba friend in Canada who grew up with Kishu when she lived in Japan. She wants to someday import Kishu to her home in Canada. Right now I think she just wants a pet, but I think she might be interested in breeding Kishu later on.
Question: Carleen lives in California? I thought she lived in Texas.
I know where I'm going for my next visit to Japan .
I never really planned on getting a Kishu, but I wouldn't mind importing a male to help out the breeding program here. YES, it would be very good for the North American breeding stock! I think if I were to get a Kishu, I'd like to get one of the colored ones...but I wouldn't mind an entirely white Ki either (will be easier to see when I run him at night, lol)...
...if one has enough space (and staff/kennel help)...a single breeder COULD be the sole producer or main producer of a breed...but it truely helps when one has friends. Then breeder can spend more quality one on one and training time with their dogs.
Comments
Ya know?
I had to think a little about this post, Brad. One part of me says that to tell the public that it's hard to do xyz with this dog or this breed is rather restrictive; it sets the tone for this person's relationship with this dog. On the other hand, you're right about how much effort the majority is going to put into something that's hard, so perhaps it's the kinder thing to do for the greater good of the group, so to speak. That's a very thoughtful post.
One more point about socialization/exposure (and again I wish we had one English word to incorporate these two concepts):
I do believe there are some genetic breed traits that you just cannot train and socialize your way around. At some point you have to just look at your dogs and say "he is what he is", and learn to appreciate them. Some of those qualities may be a bigger deal than others.
I agree wholeheartedly. There's another reason to get that puppy out early and often. If you don't socialize, you won't know for sure whether a negative trait that you're seeing is due to lack of socialization, or something innate in the genetic makeup of the dog. Using the Kishu and shyness probably isn't a good example, since aloofness is accepted. But let's say you have a Lab that is afraid to walk down the street. If you did not socialize him to become unafraid in most normal environments,you'll never know whether his fearfulness was poor temperament. If you know in your heart of hearts that you did EVERYthing you could to expose this puppy to his world, and he's STILL fearful in certain circumstances, then you have a clearer picture of what you have. And what you should be staying away from breeding, perhaps. (I'm not talking here of a short fear period burst that might crop up in some breeds that goes away in a well-conditioned, stable dog.)
I would think that any breeder wants and needs to have this kind of information about a given puppy or about his line, so a puppy buyer could be of real service here by doing this socializing homework and paying attention.
Too funny. There's one in every crowd.....
"If you don't socialize, you won't know for sure whether a negative trait that you're seeing is due to lack of socialization, or something innate in the genetic makeup of the dog."
is a perfectly stated point! and so is this:
"If you know in your heart of hearts that you did EVERYthing you could to expose this puppy to his world, and he's STILL fearful in certain circumstances, then you have a clearer picture of what you have."
One can do everything well enough and STILL end up with a neophobic, wary or reactive dog- at which point, he is what he is and his activities and enrichments need to be tailored to him so he can be the best he can be. Some breeds come with pre-installed better odds for active social lives full of new stimuli, people and places than others do- and individuals within breeds can be at the top or bottom of the window for those odds, regardless of how well you prepare them as pups. All we can do is no harm and to help each pup reach their own individual potential, and then respect it.
From the other thread that I started you can see that I am totally ignorant about Kishu. I have never met one, nor am I talented enough to compete so I wouldn't know if it was a good match. I'm just asking.
I get rid of him, take him to the shelter, or sell him to the highest bidder. Maybe the lowest bidder.
JUST KIDDING!!! I'd never do that -- my dogs are mine for life.
Tara, there's nothing that I am going to ask my Kishu to do that he will be unable to perform, because first I'm not asking for rocket science, and secondly I don't have the same expectations that I would have if I had a Border Collie. I am not expecting top scores in obedience or agility -- if I did, I'd pick another breed. But I don't happen to like BC's -- they're quirky, smart, and no two look alike. I want a breed that looks like a breed. And everyone around here has one -- either that or an Aussie.
But I digress. I'm asking for simple obedience (sit, down, come, stay, heel) that all good dogs should have anyway at the beginning. That takes care of CD and beginning Rally work. I keep motivation up by steadily increasing the palatability of what he works for -- all the way up to steak if I have to, interspersed with lots of play/tug. Most dogs find agility, if carefully taught and pre-conditioned in the puppy socialization process, to be rewarding pretty much all by itself. I see no problem in a Kishu getting the job done. He doesn't have to be blazing fast and I don't expect him to be. Any dog can track, so I just have to guide him on how to indicate something when he finds it.
I have a lot of patience. I work slowly through the titles, so that we learn things together as we go. I can teach a retrieve to just about any dog, but as mouthy as these seem to be, I don't think that's going to be a problem. My Vallhund was not a natural obedience dog either, and because of his stays, did not get a CD until age 6. Never have I waited this long to get a CD on a dog. But we're still working, still playing and I never give up.
My long-term goals are to continue interacting and working and practicing with a dog until he's into double digits in age, or something else stops him (like my Malinois' blindness).
So back to your question: I don't foresee any reason that he would be unable to perform, in some fashion. I don't have a preconceived "level;" the level matches the dog and what he can do. If he's slow, I need to motivate him more. If he's disinterested, this is an owner/handler problem, and I need to motivate him more.
The only real handicap would be if for some physical reason he couldn't jump, but the breed looks pretty athletic to me. What I'm concerned about the most, frankly, is getting him over hesitation towards people. He doesn't have to love everybody, but he should be confident enough to stand his ground, not back away, and I may work harder than I have with other dogs to get to that point. It can be done, I think, but trust me, we will be a blur of activity during that 8 to 16 week period, and beyond.
And Tara, it doesn't take talent to do what I do. It's not for everyone and I'm not saying you should or shouldn't, but the way we all started was usually at an obedience class, then with the encouragement of our instructor we attended a show or two to see what we had to do, then we trained some more and then we entered. Then we discovered whether competition was our cup of tea -- some people cannot take it, become nervous wrecks and physically ill; for others it's an adrenaline rush. You have to be a little bit of a ham to be out there in the middle of a ring surrounded by onlookers, just you and the dog, never knowing what the dog is going to do. I personally like the rush, I like the fact that competition gives me a reason to work and interact with my dog (would I teach him much if I knew I was never going into a ring? I don't know.) Yes, it's an ego trip, but the dog wants to be with me, first of all; and they do enjoy learning and eating tidbits and trying to figure out what you're trying to communicate to them. If you're doing this right, most of the training is just a series of games to the dog. They have FUN! And they get to eat good treats.
We spend three minutes in the ring. The rest of the time we walk the hills, fetch thrown balls, sniff around whatever grounds we're on. It's definitely not all work and I don't even spend that much time at training. A lot more time is spent on running, exercising, being outside, because I like dogs that are lean and fit, and they have to have exercise to get that way. Not to mention a high-drive dog is a lot easier to live with in the house if he's vigorously exercised.
I think they have a great advantage in Agility though. Aside from Hunting...this seems to be their calling.
To be honest though...most of our Nihon Ken breeding stock in North America all come from mainly modern Japanese Conformation dogs. Meaning, more emphasis was put into the appearance of the dog then their working attributes (i.e. a good nose for scentwork, drive, impact - on taking down prey, etc). We're limited on breeding stock...but eventually a few future breeders will start to selectively breed on working attributes for a more true/correct working dog (dogs bred for the sole purpose of workability rather then appearance in the conformation ring <--- though, they should still qualify in the show ring...form follows function).
It makes me happy to see people who get dogs and work them...no matter what it is they do. Compete in performance/sportwork events or taking adventures in the great outdoors.
Anyways...not U.S., but I have a Shiba friend in Canada who grew up with Kishu when she lived in Japan. She wants to someday import Kishu to her home in Canada. Right now I think she just wants a pet, but I think she might be interested in breeding Kishu later on.
Question: Carleen lives in California? I thought she lived in Texas.
I imagine it couldn't hurt the US gene pool to bring some of THAT stock over for breeding.
Ah, I see. Thanks!
------------------------
I know where I'm going for my next visit to Japan
I never really planned on getting a Kishu, but I wouldn't mind importing a male to help out the breeding program here. YES, it would be very good for the North American breeding stock! I think if I were to get a Kishu, I'd like to get one of the colored ones...but I wouldn't mind an entirely white Ki either (will be easier to see when I run him at night, lol)...
...if one has enough space (and staff/kennel help)...a single breeder COULD be the sole producer or main producer of a breed...but it truely helps when one has friends. Then breeder can spend more quality one on one and training time with their dogs.
Fun stuff.