see what happens when I leave for a couple of hours.....
A point on boar-hunting (as the other points have been well-discussed...both sides), my brother is an avid hunter and I am a recipient of his hobby. I've discussed this before about my brother and the extremes he does to make sure that all parts of the animal are used. He leads boar hunts here in the South because of the problems we have with over-population. Ten years ago, he'd have people drive cross-country to hunt boar. Now, they don't have to drive but just a couple of hours and they can hunt boar. Boar hunting is the only hunting that my brother does with a gun and it's because of the danger. He has one dog that hunts with him - it's because that dog has the right instinct when it comes to boar. As long as wild boar is consider a menace, hunts will occur. The various organizations against it will protest...until a member of theirs walking in the forest gets severely injured by a boar.
Boar hunting is dangerous to a hunter - having dogs that can assist would be beneficial. Just like those that train beagles to go for game rabbits (there are still trials & hunts for those), there is a "market" for dogs to hunt boar. BTW, those beagles have to meet certain conformation for rabbit trials and health is at the utmost for those guys.
With regards to owning boar-hunting dog breeds in the US and preserving them, I believe it is not so much up to the pet owner to mimick that activity. Their responsibility is to be realistic of the dog they have and portray them fairly no matter what venue is used. "This is a hunting breed, but we're doing Schuzhund for kicks." "This is a hunting breed, but we're going to do lure coursing for fun." "This is a hunting breed and so it's probably not a good idea to bring your pet guinea pig closer."
There is, however, a burden upon breeders to "prove" their breeding stock and ensure that the hunting instinct is still there. Among Dogo Argentinos, it is said that it only takes 2 generations before you lose the "heart" to catch if it's not selected for. That's not even considering the other aspects for hunting such as long trailing, scenting, and focusing on the task that is needed to even get close to a boar.
I remember a story from one Dogo Argentino breeder who also happens to own a Shiba. Their Shiba did not have instinct to even face off with a boar or distract it. It just got run over, and the Shiba had to be saved by a Dogo.
I don't think not registering the dogs with the AKC will prevent any of these negative results. First, they are already recognized and registered by several kennel clubs, second, there are a lot of types of dog that aren't registered that are still being bred in puppy mills and sold in pet shops. The most popular puppy mill dogs seem to be designer hybrids right now, so my guess is that people are caring less and less about registration.
On the other hand, I think registering the border collie with the AKC did a real number on their natural working instincts as people started breeding for looks rather than function or temperament. I can really see people breeding the shikoku to be a golden retriever in a shikoku body, since they are so beautiful, but don't act the way many people want their dogs to act.
I don't know, though. With most breeds that become popular, there are the good, responsible, well-rounded breeders, then there are the bad breeders. Across the board, there are different strains - working, non-registered dogs, and registered show dogs, and various other lines, all of which can be bred responsibly or not. One thing I think is that the total number of dogs in shelters/puppy mills doesn't depend on a certain breed becoming popular. I mean, if it's not one breed, it's another, and it's a shame when it happens to any dog. I'm sure if any nihon ken breed were to become really popular, it wouldn't destroy the whole breed entirely, as long as there was a community of responsible breeders.
BUT, as someone aspiring to breed shikoku, I do feel it's my responsibility to do whatever I can do protect shikoku, by educating whenever possible and being a good example. I feel more responsibility for the breeds I own than, say, some other breed I've never lived with. Although, I will always try to be an advocate for dogs in general.
Anyway, I still don't know. Shikoku are recognized by the CKC and nothing seems to have changed up here so far. I am interested in showing my dogs, but only mildly. I'm more interested in working them, and if I couldn't ever show my dogs, I wouldn't be too upset.
Take Skella, for example. I've had her for... two years? and I haven't shown her yet because I can't get any Iceland sheepdog owners nearby to take their dogs to shows. There aren't very many to begin with, and the ones that are around either have their dogs registered with AKC FSS (can't be shown in Canada) or they focus more on actual herding, so they hardly ever go to shows. I *could* travel ridiculous distances to shows, and I probably would if it were more important to me. It hasn't been all that disappointing to me, because Skella has good type and temperament, she has shown natural skills as an agility dog and a therapy dog, and has ample herding instinct (although I don't have any sheep - yet). She was shown a bit before I bought her, so she does have some points toward her championship. My plan is to breed her once she's had her health checks and not worry about shows until I have more than one Icy to take to shows with me. Some breeders would call that heresy (breeding a dog that hadn't earned a championship), but it's not my top priority. I'm confident that she's a good specimen (pending x-rays, her CERF is normal) and my main intent is to sell or donate the puppies to do assistance and SAR, to keep one, and to sell remaining puppies as companions (or show dogs, if someone wants one, but most people don't). I've already contacted people who want donated puppies, so...
Anyway... this novel is to demonstrate that I don't know.
Sorry Marion, not trying to gang up on you or anything, but I just wanted to throw my opinion into the mix.
Pretty soon you lose that long, lean face and slanted eyes because they aren't important in the cornering of a wild pig. Pretty soon your beautiful Shikoku looks sort of like any other husky/Spitz type dog.
Actually, Shikoku bred exclusively for workability are very similar to Shikoku bred for "prettiness". See here for Shikoku bred for boar hunting in Japan. I see only slight differences in structure and variety in coat colour. And who's to say you have to select ONLY for hunting or ONLY for conformation? Can't you do both?
It is unrealistic to expect any one person to establish and maintain a database that can do this.
I think you may be right once we get into really large numbers. But you have to keep in mind that Shikoku are currently registerable with JKC, NIPPO, FCI, CKC, and UKC.
The AKC provides shows and trials and activities all across the country.
Many other clubs also provide shows and trials. UKC, NADAC, MBDCA... heck, even CKC! IIRC, you live fairly close to the border. I'm sure there are also local clubs in which you could participate without being an AKC recognized breed.
If there ever was a breed destined to be banned via Breed Specific Legislation, it would be the Shikoku with its wolf-like appearance.
I disagree with this. It would only happen if the breed became hugely popular and ended up in the hands of irresponsible owners. The Shikoku isn't an inherently aggressive dog in the first place.
There will eventually be enough people in the breed who want to go AKC that they will start their own club which the AKC will then recognize as the parent club.
Well, that isn't really a good reason to get them AKC recognized right now. And even if that were to happen, I think those people will care enough about the breed that they will have similar feelings to those that are involved right now.
There is no way that the animal rights people will allow dogs to go after wild boar, no matter where they are. They are already making noises about bird trials, fox hunting is no longer allowed -- there is no way except to go underground to do it. That makes it illegal. So ultimately if you can't do that, you can't test their hunting instincts very easily. How many owners are going to do that anyway, even if it WERE legal?
Actually, boar hunting is legal in a lot of areas, due to the wild boar epidemic. Shikoku are mostly bay dogs, rather than catch dogs, so they typically don't harm the animal at all. And why does boar have to be the only animal they hunt? What about deer hunting? What about moose/elk/caribou? What about hunting rabbits or grouse, or pheasants? Animal rights activists protest against commercial farms, yet they still exist.
Nihon ken could potentially hunt all sorts of animals, and all sorts of hunting is legal. Lots of people hunt deer, boar, and other big game. Even dangerous animals like bears, wolves, and cougars are hunted legally. I would love to hunt with my shikoku some day.
I think it's illegal to hunt in such a way that the dogs actually attack and injure the animal, because it's inhumane to the animal being hunted and dangerous to the dog. There are two strains of shikoku, one bred for "bite-to-detain" and one bred for "bark-to-detain." The barkers are more common, and from what I understand, all the dogs imported to N America are bark-to-detainers. They track animals and alert the hunter of their whereabouts. That's no more inhumane than the hunter finding the animals and shooting them unassisted.
"BUT, as someone aspiring to breed shikoku, I do feel it's my responsibility to do whatever I can do protect shikoku, by educating whenever possible and being a good example. I feel more responsibility for the breeds I own than, say, some other breed I've never lived with. Although, I will always try to be an advocate for dogs in general."
This is how I feel as well. I can't speak for the Kishu or Shikoku community, but I do want to speak out for the Kai. I voted no I guess to all of them, but really Kai is the only one I feel only somewhat qualified to vote for kind've. I may feel more qualified in ten years. If the Shikoku and the well one Kishu breeder decide to go AKC all the more power to them. If NAKA came to me and asked me what I thought about Kai going AKC, well then I'd want to hear all sides for and against and weigh the benefits of each side before they jumped into it.
Very recently I've become aware of dog breeds, what they are and what they should signify or accomplish, and how people treat them, and therefore how they become recognized/registrable. It seems when it comes to nationwide registries like AKC, etc.. its all about perfection in form and not so much function. Thats what is highly televised on primetime - the AKC conformation ring, not the field trial. They're already advertising front and center on their page: http://www.akc.org/invitational/2009/event_info.cfm - its called Best in Show, not best in boar baying. Perfection in appearance and how it conforms to the written standard. Despite all the faults that we just can't get rid of in dog breeds, the goal of registries like the AKC is still perfection in SHOW regardless of how the breed came to be in the first damn place. Should we then strive for perfection in function in the Japanese spitz? Or hope they maintain some of that instinct and love them like a house pet at the end of the day? Have we ever considered creating a club for such a thing (function testing)? Is that even possible without special attention to their pretty form?
So, I voted no, and if I had any sort of authority in the shiba breed - the one that I am most familiar with - (which I certainly do not have authority in) I would take them out of the AKC/puppy cam/Nintendogs spot light and back to the brushwood.
"Just one question. What do you mean they will go the way of the Kai and Kishu? Which way did they go?"
I just meant that Shikoku will probably reach at least FSS status with the AKC as the Kai and Kishu have done, which would leave only the Hokkaido of the six breeds out of AKC. And by the way, the Kai will be eligible to participate in companion events effective January 1, 2010, as will the Jindo. I still shake my head in amazement how quickly the AKC is introducing a breed nowadays; as long as it has a parent club (no matter how strong), a breed standard and dogs (I don't know how many) with a 3-generation pedigree, they are eligible to start showing in obedience, agility, etc. Everyone says it's to increase funds for the AKC. I hardly think so. The number of rare breeds that are trained enough to participate in any of these activities has to be extremely small, producing a correspondingly small income.
I will reluctantly concede that AKC recognition will draw out money-hungry breeders who will take advantage of the novelty of a rare breed and charge astronomical prices for awhile. This has happened in a number of breeds -- I remember the Shar-Pei specifically not so many years ago demanding tens of thousands of dollars. Then the uproar dies down and prices come back back, but the damage to the breed has been done in terms of dogs out there with poor health, poor structure and bad temperaments.
Many breed clubs combat the poor breeders with a strong Code of Ethics made public on the parent club website, a special Breeders' List of breeders who will sign the code (and these are listed on the website), and the admonition not to buy from anyone else. Easier said than done. It is guaranteed that some splinter group will object to some aspect of the Code as too intrusive or restrictive, and now they will object to you telling the world that anyone except who is on this Breeder's List should be shunned like Pariahs. It's buyer beware anyhow, and he who does not do his homework will get a puppy from a breeder who does not sign the code, or from someone's backyard.
There is no question that with any increase in population (of people), you will get more bad apples. So in that sense, if AKC brings more people to the Shikoku, there will be more opportunity for the bad apples to surface and not care what they are producing. I don't see any solution to that.
I stand corrected about the legality of hunting boars. Regardless, let's get real. How many are actually going to go out and start hunting dangerous wild pigs? Some of you couldn't kill a rabbit. If you start substituting deer hunting for the real thing, there will be complaints that it's not the same for the dog -- you might test its tracking ability, but not its courage in the face of a fierce boar.
Hunting boar may be happening, but the video I saw used the Dogo Argentine for the chase.
Hunting by those who are actually breeding Shikoku is NOT happening. There are two breeders in North America and a couple of others who are about to become breeders. None of these owners and none of this breeding stock has been tested on boar as far as I know -- at least I haven't read anything yet. The logistics of pitting your imported, expensive, beloved house and kennel dog against something like a wild boar becomes enormous on many levels. Some of you are jumping up and down in excitement over the prospect of owning your own Shikoku -- and many of you are female. I've heard ONE comment about wanting to learn to hunt.
Putting everything together, actual boar hunting is not going to play a large part in keeping the instincts alive in these dogs. If you eventually get 50 owners and breeders who own boar hunters of whatever flavor, if as many as five of them actually hunt will be an amazing statistic.
Something I wish was more of a requirement in AKC conformation. There are too many dogs that get shown that don't do much else than see the show ring or wait in the house/kennel for the next show. I know that there are quite a few breeders that do other events with their dogs, but there are just as many or more that only care about getting best in show.
Beth, this is absolutely true. It's been a well-known and well-discussed shortcoming of the American dog show system for like ...... forever. I can't argue that point at all.
Why can't the shikas be evaluated solely in field trials like those for bird dogs?
Logistics. Pure and simple.
A field trial is a very real possibility, however. It might be the only way to provide a test of courage, tracking ability, perseverance in the bark. The logistics are daunting, however. Some few brave men somewhere have to catch a live boar, stick it in a very sturdy cage, truck it to some remote site in the woods, somehow run a trail of scent from the start of the test to the cage, all the while keeping the boar happy, fed, watered, cool in the heat if you're going to be humane about it; and unleash the dogs alone or in pairs or whatever the rules might be.
This isn't so different from earthdog tests for terriers and dachshunds -- a simulation of the real thing, just on a much grander scale. I doubt that the AKC will sanction it but that doesn't even matter, because a local or parent club can put something like this on at any time . Rules have to be written, judges obtained, some sort of criteria established for what's passing and what fails. It would be difficult to put on (mostly because of the starting point: capturing a live boar), but it has distinctly more possibilities than endangering the dogs in a real hunt.
"It is unrealistic to expect any one person to establish and maintain a database that can do this." I think you are making a baseless claim here. It IS realistic for someone to do this. In fact, someone *IS* already doing this. It's amazing what computers can do these days. It turns out there is very little to do beyond the initial development. After that, it basically runs itself.
I knew that, and I know who it is and what he's trying to do. I've been on his website. We are talking about someone who has at least 10 dogs to take care of (I keep losing count) and to spend quality time with, a place to keep up, a wife, a full-time job and a forum to monitor. If you have just 5 litters nationwide happening per year, there are roughly 20 puppies to input and keep track of, then another 20 the next year and the health stats start coming in. Within 5 years or so there are Shikoku all over the country to keep track of. How many man hours is one person expected to put in?
Also, the AKC likes to talk about the integrity of its registration system and process. It will be difficult for one person to provide the same integrity, simply because a human is human and an organization is an impersonal machine, sort of.
but I hope I will still be allowed to enjoy a shikoku or a kai someday when my pack is ready for one. Even though I don't compete or hunt my dogs, I DO provide an enriched environment, natural and structured activities, attention, training, love and care and a stimulating interesting life for my dogs as befits their personality and ability. Even if a dog of mine is a bit on the snarkalicious side. I think that's pretty good and dedicated. I don't want to be left out.
However, if you are going to breed that dog, all of the above isn't good enough, according to this debate. I like ayk's viewpoint, however. It is not up to the pet owner to mimic boar hunting activity. But are all breeders who say they want to preserve the breed, going to be able to test them? I don't think so.
"Hunting by those who are actually breeding Shikoku is NOT happening."
The shikoku have been breed in North America for only a little over 3 years. Future breeders and owner have discussed the desire to hunt. I think it is premature to assume that statistics will be low on those who hunt. Especially since this breed has not been diluted (comparatively) and comes from a country who has this dog only for hunting.
And it is not about hunting "boar". It is about perserving characteristics and not being diluted to fit the needs of the mainstream. It is about them having high prey drives. Their instincts would be well used for hiking, S & R, other animals hunts. And there are near future shikoku breeders/owners looking to introduce their shikoku to hunting, S & R and other field work for wildlife agencies.
You talk about wanting a the shikoku or kishu for AKC trials, but what makes you assume that they will be good at that? And there is only one shikoku that comes to mind who participates and does well in obedience.
"The logistics of pitting your imported, expensive, beloved house and kennel dog against something like a wild boar becomes enormous on many levels."
That is what these dogs where built for. Why get a field/working dog if you aren't going to use it in a field or for work? So it can lay around the house and be miserable? Or be showcased in the ring, where the dog could careless. A lot of field/working/protection dogs are expensive.
"2) If there ever was a breed destined to be banned via Breed Specific Legislation, it would be the Shikoku with its wolf-like appearance. The AKC provides protection because it is the most highly respected and recognized and listened to dog registry organization in this country, it has a cadre of lawyers willing to fight such legislation and other issues as they come up in each state."
This is BS! There are dozens of breeds recognized by the AKC the experience BSL. The AKC does nothing when you can't get home owner insurance because you own an Akita or Rottweiler. The AKC does nothing when a town or county outlaws certain AKC breeds.
"The AKC is primarily a registration service and a highly effective one that no one questions."
Does that make it the AKC good??? If anything it is extremely detrimental since there is no room for change or improvement.
"3) The AKC provides shows and trials and activities all across the country. While there are other organizations and events, they are sporadic and spotty and often concentrated in one area. "
I find this to be the only real reason you want the shikoku/kishu to be AKC'd. I think one should think about what is best for the breed as a whole and not personal desires. You mentioned how the breeders of the Swedish Valhounds went through same thing (pre-AKC'd) and everything turned out alright. . Yet I am sure a poll would show the Shikoku to be far more appealing to the mainstream and in turn far more danger to be exploited.
"Some of you couldn't kill a rabbit."
I find that statement to be offensive and unnecessary. You barely know the audience that you speak to.
"Also, the AKC likes to talk about the integrity of its registration system and process. It will be difficult for one person to provide the same integrity, simply because a human is human and an organization is an impersonal machine, sort of."
An organization is made up of humans. Look at Crufts and their willingness to show/award dogs with deformations and major health problems. They lack MAJOR integrity.
That is what these dogs where built for. Why get a field/working dog if you aren't going to use it in a field or for work? So it can lay around the house and be miserable? Or be showcased in the ring, where the dog could careless.
Ask that of the next 10 people who will be getting puppies from the litters coming up within the next year. Ask the BREEDERS of these 10 puppies if they are going to sell only to owners who promise to find wild boar to chase.
Is the parent club going to put that stipulation in its Code or suggestions, that all puppies be sold to hunters only?
There is this wide gulf between idealistic "wishing" and the reality of living in the United States. John Q. Public doesn't just routinely go boar hunting as a part of his day....
The REALITY is that most of the dogs won't be used for hunting. The REALITY is that most of the breeders won't be selling them to hunters, no matter how much you wish otherwise. Boar hunters are not exactly standing on every street corner.
Just a friendly reminder guys, I'd really like to keep this discussion as friendly as possible please This is a VERY interesting subject with some very interesting view points that I think are both only beneficial to these breeds.
Just remember, no matter what side of the fence you're on, everyone is here sharing their views BECAUSE of their love for these breeds.
Let's not forget we're all nihon ken fanatics here ~
I find that statement to be offensive and unnecessary. You barely know the audience that you speak to.
I was merely making the point that those who don't hunt because they can't kill small animals are not going to be the mighty boar hunter working with her dog in the field. And SOME of those non-hunters are going to be getting Shikoku. It wasn't said to be offensive -- it's just the truth!
And it is not about hunting "boar". It is about preserving characteristics and not being diluted to fit the needs of the mainstream. It is about them having high prey drives. Their instincts would be well used for hiking, S & R, other animals hunts. And there are near future shikoku breeders/owners looking to introduce their shikoku to hunting, S & R and other field work for wildlife agencies. Just because they haven't voiced their opinions to you doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A strong shikoku parent club doesn't really exist. How can it be ready for the AKC?
And it is not about hunting "boar". It is about perserving characteristics and not being diluted to fit the needs of the mainstream. It is about them having high prey drives. Their instincts would be well used for hiking, S & R, other animals hunts. And there are near future shikoku breeders/owners looking to introduce their shikoku to hunting, S & R and other field work for wildlife agencies.
Sorry, I missed this paragraph. I'm all for it. If this satisfies in everyone's mind that doing these things is enough testing of those working characteristics, then I'm all for it. If this is what you meant by working in the field, then this would be wonderful. I fail to see how hiking (and tethered hiking, at that) preserves courage to hold a large animal at bay, but at least these activities are realistic and doable.
"I fail to see how hiking (and tethered hiking, at that) preserves courage to hold a large animal at bay, but at least these activities are realistic and doable."
I don't think it is about the courage to hold at animal at bay- especially a shikoku, but about their high prey drives, ruggedness, and reactiveness.
A strong shikoku parent club doesn't really exist. How can it be ready for the AKC?
It doesn't need much of a club to arrange for FSS status. The Kishu doesn't even have a club -- it has a Registry, owned and kept by one person.
And btw, I'm not so naive to believe that the Shikoku should enter FSS status just because I want to do companion events with it. In looking overall at what would be best for the breed, I just don't think it would hurt to go that far but no further until a strong parent club was established.
I think the fact that many of us are female is irrelevant to the hunting discussion. Women hunt. Women shoot. Even here in Massachusetts of all places, we have an active Outdoorwoman organization that is always waitlisted for events, including shoots, deer and turkey hunts and all manner of instructional weekends and workshops. I'd expect the further west you go, it is even more common to find outdoorswomen than it is here, no?
I'd like to point out that every beagle and all the terriers, hounds and most of the cats I know retain LOTS of prey drive, despite being housepets. When I used to run our dogs loose at the field, Reilly, Sage, two goofy pet labradors, a field line Irish setter, two show-line springer spaniels, a pitbull mix and a beagle-toller mix ALL were hot for rabbits, turkey and dug out meadow voles- for the COMPLETE prey cycle (scenting all the way to swallowing- well, they didnt catch the turkeys, but they ate everything else) I am not sure the prey drive dies so easily. None of them were bred for sharp hunting, or trained, they just had the opportunity to DO it.
Whatever allows dogs to thrive in their real modern environment is what is best for them- and companion life is where its at for most US dogs in 2009. Even hunting homes don't hunt all year like in the old days when you HAD to in order to eat and needed a dog that WANTED to very badly every day. I think, like other breeds before them, shika can be successful companions while retaining their distinctive personalities and skills. Sure they were heroic in the past, but so was everyone else- None of us is Odysseus, either. "Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' We are not now that strength which in old days Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,-- One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Even in Japan, shikoku aren't just used for boar hunting. They are used for hunting deer and other large game, so there's really nothing wrong with adapting the breed to hunting other animals. There aren't any wild boar in my area, but there are deer and pronghorns.
SAR is actually a great use for shikoku - SAR dogs work by tracking the person, then barking to alert the handler of their whereabouts. It seems to me to be a natural adaptation of their hunting style.
Lure coursing is another thing shikoku could do. In fact, a field trial might involve scenting, luring, and baying. It's different for different registries, but in the CKC, Shikoku are classified as sight/scent hounds, much like Rhodesian Ridgebacks, which can participate in scenting and luring trials. Also, a field trial need not involve a real boar. There are currently trials involving hunting spitz breeds that involve use of a fake bear. I've seen videos of Akita being tested in this way.
The Russian/Scandinavian breeds (laika, Karelian bear dog, norwegian elkhound, etc) are a good case study for what could happen with the shikoku (and kishu and kai), as they are similar in many ways. People use them for their original purpose quite frequently, and they're popular SAR dogs and hiking companions. KBDs are used by National parks to help control wild life.
Another good example in another breed is the basenji. There is a group of people dedicated to importing African stock and using basenjis to hunt, as well as for SAR and drug detection. They have a yahoo mailing list that I subscribe to - it's really interesting. They are used as hearing assistance dogs, too
The number of shikoku is so small currently, that breeders are doing the breed a great service simply by increasing the gene pool and producing more healthy, good-tempered specimens. Importing new breeding stock and establishing a breeding community is just the first step - we're still in the foundation phase. It's a crucial phase, and I for one feel very optimistic about the people involved. This forum in and of itself has done the breed a great service.
I do plan on hunting with shikoku some day, and doing SAR, too. There are dangers, but there are also precautions you can take. Protective vests and GPS tracking devices, as well as knowing doggy first aid (learning canine first aid is required to do SAR in my area). Nothing's risk-free, but the benefits are enormous, in my opinion. There is a member of this forum who hunts with his Hokkaido.
As for the original question of AKC registration - they are primarily a registration service, and there are frighteningly few requirements for breeders to register with them, so regardless of whether they get accepted or not, the breed's future will depend on the breeders' decisions. I think it's really important to have a breed registry to keep track of breeding stock, but the Shikoku is already accepted by enough kennel clubs that that's already taken care of.
I still haven't voted. I don't know. The AKC itself won't do anything for the breed, it's still up to us. I mean, if we want field trials, that's a whole 'nother set of hoops to jump through (getting the trials accepted and sanctioned by the AKC and whatnot). We could do unofficial trials, but we can do that already, so AKC is really unnecessary, if you think about.
Hey, that gives me an idea... our North American Shikoku club should develop a trial to be used for testing Shikoku. Oh man, that would be so great!
Whatever allows dogs to thrive in their real modern environment is what is best for them- and companion life is where its at for most US dogs in 2009.
I agree, Chrystal, but I'm wondering whether Dave would agree? Did you not say, Dave, that you were against turning these breeds into pets/companions? And didn't someone else say that if you don't select for hunting skills and instincts, you are going to lose it in two generations? This is the subject of another thread, maybe, but what is a caretaker to do?!
Heidi, that was such a good post that even I have nothing left to say!
Comments
A point on boar-hunting (as the other points have been well-discussed...both sides), my brother is an avid hunter and I am a recipient of his hobby. I've discussed this before about my brother and the extremes he does to make sure that all parts of the animal are used. He leads boar hunts here in the South because of the problems we have with over-population. Ten years ago, he'd have people drive cross-country to hunt boar. Now, they don't have to drive but just a couple of hours and they can hunt boar. Boar hunting is the only hunting that my brother does with a gun and it's because of the danger. He has one dog that hunts with him - it's because that dog has the right instinct when it comes to boar. As long as wild boar is consider a menace, hunts will occur. The various organizations against it will protest...until a member of theirs walking in the forest gets severely injured by a boar.
Boar hunting is dangerous to a hunter - having dogs that can assist would be beneficial. Just like those that train beagles to go for game rabbits (there are still trials & hunts for those), there is a "market" for dogs to hunt boar. BTW, those beagles have to meet certain conformation for rabbit trials and health is at the utmost for those guys.
There is, however, a burden upon breeders to "prove" their breeding stock and ensure that the hunting instinct is still there. Among Dogo Argentinos, it is said that it only takes 2 generations before you lose the "heart" to catch if it's not selected for. That's not even considering the other aspects for hunting such as long trailing, scenting, and focusing on the task that is needed to even get close to a boar.
I remember a story from one Dogo Argentino breeder who also happens to own a Shiba. Their Shiba did not have instinct to even face off with a boar or distract it. It just got run over, and the Shiba had to be saved by a Dogo.
I don't think not registering the dogs with the AKC will prevent any of these negative results. First, they are already recognized and registered by several kennel clubs, second, there are a lot of types of dog that aren't registered that are still being bred in puppy mills and sold in pet shops. The most popular puppy mill dogs seem to be designer hybrids right now, so my guess is that people are caring less and less about registration.
On the other hand, I think registering the border collie with the AKC did a real number on their natural working instincts as people started breeding for looks rather than function or temperament. I can really see people breeding the shikoku to be a golden retriever in a shikoku body, since they are so beautiful, but don't act the way many people want their dogs to act.
I don't know, though. With most breeds that become popular, there are the good, responsible, well-rounded breeders, then there are the bad breeders. Across the board, there are different strains - working, non-registered dogs, and registered show dogs, and various other lines, all of which can be bred responsibly or not. One thing I think is that the total number of dogs in shelters/puppy mills doesn't depend on a certain breed becoming popular. I mean, if it's not one breed, it's another, and it's a shame when it happens to any dog. I'm sure if any nihon ken breed were to become really popular, it wouldn't destroy the whole breed entirely, as long as there was a community of responsible breeders.
BUT, as someone aspiring to breed shikoku, I do feel it's my responsibility to do whatever I can do protect shikoku, by educating whenever possible and being a good example. I feel more responsibility for the breeds I own than, say, some other breed I've never lived with. Although, I will always try to be an advocate for dogs in general.
Anyway, I still don't know. Shikoku are recognized by the CKC and nothing seems to have changed up here so far. I am interested in showing my dogs, but only mildly. I'm more interested in working them, and if I couldn't ever show my dogs, I wouldn't be too upset.
Take Skella, for example. I've had her for... two years? and I haven't shown her yet because I can't get any Iceland sheepdog owners nearby to take their dogs to shows. There aren't very many to begin with, and the ones that are around either have their dogs registered with AKC FSS (can't be shown in Canada) or they focus more on actual herding, so they hardly ever go to shows. I *could* travel ridiculous distances to shows, and I probably would if it were more important to me. It hasn't been all that disappointing to me, because Skella has good type and temperament, she has shown natural skills as an agility dog and a therapy dog, and has ample herding instinct (although I don't have any sheep - yet). She was shown a bit before I bought her, so she does have some points toward her championship. My plan is to breed her once she's had her health checks and not worry about shows until I have more than one Icy to take to shows with me. Some breeders would call that heresy (breeding a dog that hadn't earned a championship), but it's not my top priority. I'm confident that she's a good specimen (pending x-rays, her CERF is normal) and my main intent is to sell or donate the puppies to do assistance and SAR, to keep one, and to sell remaining puppies as companions (or show dogs, if someone wants one, but most people don't). I've already contacted people who want donated puppies, so...
Anyway... this novel is to demonstrate that I don't know.
Pretty soon you lose that long, lean face and slanted eyes because they aren't important in the cornering of a wild pig. Pretty soon your beautiful Shikoku looks sort of like any other husky/Spitz type dog.
Actually, Shikoku bred exclusively for workability are very similar to Shikoku bred for "prettiness". See here for Shikoku bred for boar hunting in Japan. I see only slight differences in structure and variety in coat colour. And who's to say you have to select ONLY for hunting or ONLY for conformation? Can't you do both?
It is unrealistic to expect any one person to establish and maintain a database that can do this.
I think you may be right once we get into really large numbers. But you have to keep in mind that Shikoku are currently registerable with JKC, NIPPO, FCI, CKC, and UKC.
The AKC provides shows and trials and activities all across the country.
Many other clubs also provide shows and trials. UKC, NADAC, MBDCA... heck, even CKC! IIRC, you live fairly close to the border. I'm sure there are also local clubs in which you could participate without being an AKC recognized breed.
If there ever was a breed destined to be banned via Breed Specific Legislation, it would be the Shikoku with its wolf-like appearance.
I disagree with this. It would only happen if the breed became hugely popular and ended up in the hands of irresponsible owners. The Shikoku isn't an inherently aggressive dog in the first place.
There will eventually be enough people in the breed who want to go AKC that they will start their own club which the AKC will then recognize as the parent club.
Well, that isn't really a good reason to get them AKC recognized right now. And even if that were to happen, I think those people will care enough about the breed that they will have similar feelings to those that are involved right now.
There is no way that the animal rights people will allow dogs to go after wild boar, no matter where they are. They are already making noises about bird trials, fox hunting is no longer allowed -- there is no way except to go underground to do it. That makes it illegal. So ultimately if you can't do that, you can't test their hunting instincts very easily. How many owners are going to do that anyway, even if it WERE legal?
Actually, boar hunting is legal in a lot of areas, due to the wild boar epidemic. Shikoku are mostly bay dogs, rather than catch dogs, so they typically don't harm the animal at all. And why does boar have to be the only animal they hunt? What about deer hunting? What about moose/elk/caribou? What about hunting rabbits or grouse, or pheasants? Animal rights activists protest against commercial farms, yet they still exist.
Nihon ken could potentially hunt all sorts of animals, and all sorts of hunting is legal. Lots of people hunt deer, boar, and other big game. Even dangerous animals like bears, wolves, and cougars are hunted legally. I would love to hunt with my shikoku some day.
I think it's illegal to hunt in such a way that the dogs actually attack and injure the animal, because it's inhumane to the animal being hunted and dangerous to the dog. There are two strains of shikoku, one bred for "bite-to-detain" and one bred for "bark-to-detain." The barkers are more common, and from what I understand, all the dogs imported to N America are bark-to-detainers. They track animals and alert the hunter of their whereabouts. That's no more inhumane than the hunter finding the animals and shooting them unassisted.
This is how I feel as well. I can't speak for the Kishu or Shikoku community, but I do want to speak out for the Kai. I voted no I guess to all of them, but really Kai is the only one I feel only somewhat qualified to vote for kind've. I may feel more qualified in ten years. If the Shikoku and the well one Kishu breeder decide to go AKC all the more power to them. If NAKA came to me and asked me what I thought about Kai going AKC, well then I'd want to hear all sides for and against and weigh the benefits of each side before they jumped into it.
Very recently I've become aware of dog breeds, what they are and what they should signify or accomplish, and how people treat them, and therefore how they become recognized/registrable. It seems when it comes to nationwide registries like AKC, etc.. its all about perfection in form and not so much function. Thats what is highly televised on primetime - the AKC conformation ring, not the field trial. They're already advertising front and center on their page: http://www.akc.org/invitational/2009/event_info.cfm - its called Best in Show, not best in boar baying.
Perfection in appearance and how it conforms to the written standard. Despite all the faults that we just can't get rid of in dog breeds, the goal of registries like the AKC is still perfection in SHOW regardless of how the breed came to be in the first damn place. Should we then strive for perfection in function in the Japanese spitz? Or hope they maintain some of that instinct and love them like a house pet at the end of the day?
Have we ever considered creating a club for such a thing (function testing)? Is that even possible without special attention to their pretty form?
So, I voted no, and if I had any sort of authority in the shiba breed - the one that I am most familiar with - (which I certainly do not have authority in) I would take them out of the AKC/puppy cam/Nintendogs spot light and back to the brushwood.
"Just one question. What do you mean they will go the way of the Kai and Kishu? Which way did they go?"
I just meant that Shikoku will probably reach at least FSS status with the AKC as the Kai and Kishu have done, which would leave only the Hokkaido of the six breeds out of AKC. And by the way, the Kai will be eligible to participate in companion events effective January 1, 2010, as will the Jindo. I still shake my head in amazement how quickly the AKC is introducing a breed nowadays; as long as it has a parent club (no matter how strong), a breed standard and dogs (I don't know how many) with a 3-generation pedigree, they are eligible to start showing in obedience, agility, etc. Everyone says it's to increase funds for the AKC. I hardly think so. The number of rare breeds that are trained enough to participate in any of these activities has to be extremely small, producing a correspondingly small income.
I will reluctantly concede that AKC recognition will draw out money-hungry breeders who will take advantage of the novelty of a rare breed and charge astronomical prices for awhile. This has happened in a number of breeds -- I remember the Shar-Pei specifically not so many years ago demanding tens of thousands of dollars. Then the uproar dies down and prices come back back, but the damage to the breed has been done in terms of dogs out there with poor health, poor structure and bad temperaments.
Many breed clubs combat the poor breeders with a strong Code of Ethics made public on the parent club website, a special Breeders' List of breeders who will sign the code (and these are listed on the website), and the admonition not to buy from anyone else. Easier said than done. It is guaranteed that some splinter group will object to some aspect of the Code as too intrusive or restrictive, and now they will object to you telling the world that anyone except who is on this Breeder's List should be shunned like Pariahs. It's buyer beware anyhow, and he who does not do his homework will get a puppy from a breeder who does not sign the code, or from someone's backyard.
There is no question that with any increase in population (of people), you will get more bad apples. So in that sense, if AKC brings more people to the Shikoku, there will be more opportunity for the bad apples to surface and not care what they are producing. I don't see any solution to that.
I stand corrected about the legality of hunting boars. Regardless, let's get real. How many are actually going to go out and start hunting dangerous wild pigs? Some of you couldn't kill a rabbit. If you start substituting deer hunting for the real thing, there will be complaints that it's not the same for the dog -- you might test its tracking ability, but not its courage in the face of a fierce boar.
Hunting boar may be happening, but the video I saw used the Dogo Argentine for the chase.
Hunting by those who are actually breeding Shikoku is NOT happening. There are two breeders in North America and a couple of others who are about to become breeders. None of these owners and none of this breeding stock has been tested on boar as far as I know -- at least I haven't read anything yet. The logistics of pitting your imported, expensive, beloved house and kennel dog against something like a wild boar becomes enormous on many levels. Some of you are jumping up and down in excitement over the prospect of owning your own Shikoku -- and many of you are female. I've heard ONE comment about wanting to learn to hunt.
Putting everything together, actual boar hunting is not going to play a large part in keeping the instincts alive in these dogs. If you eventually get 50 owners and breeders who own boar hunters of whatever flavor, if as many as five of them actually hunt will be an amazing statistic.
Beth, this is absolutely true. It's been a well-known and well-discussed shortcoming of the American dog show system for like ...... forever. I can't argue that point at all.
They're afraid....... very afraid......
Why can't the shikas be evaluated solely in field trials like those for bird dogs?
Logistics. Pure and simple.
A field trial is a very real possibility, however. It might be the only way to provide a test of courage, tracking ability, perseverance in the bark. The logistics are daunting, however. Some few brave men somewhere have to catch a live boar, stick it in a very sturdy cage, truck it to some remote site in the woods, somehow run a trail of scent from the start of the test to the cage, all the while keeping the boar happy, fed, watered, cool in the heat if you're going to be humane about it; and unleash the dogs alone or in pairs or whatever the rules might be.
This isn't so different from earthdog tests for terriers and dachshunds -- a simulation of the real thing, just on a much grander scale. I doubt that the AKC will sanction it but that doesn't even matter, because a local or parent club can put something like this on at any time . Rules have to be written, judges obtained, some sort of criteria established for what's passing and what fails. It would be difficult to put on (mostly because of the starting point: capturing a live boar), but it has distinctly more possibilities than endangering the dogs in a real hunt.
"It is unrealistic to expect any one person to establish and maintain a database that can do this." I think you are making a baseless claim here. It IS realistic for someone to do this. In fact, someone *IS* already doing this. It's amazing what computers can do these days. It turns out there is very little to do beyond the initial development. After that, it basically runs itself.
I knew that, and I know who it is and what he's trying to do. I've been on his website. We are talking about someone who has at least 10 dogs to take care of (I keep losing count) and to spend quality time with, a place to keep up, a wife, a full-time job and a forum to monitor. If you have just 5 litters nationwide happening per year, there are roughly 20 puppies to input and keep track of, then another 20 the next year and the health stats start coming in. Within 5 years or so there are Shikoku all over the country to keep track of. How many man hours is one person expected to put in?
Also, the AKC likes to talk about the integrity of its registration system and process. It will be difficult for one person to provide the same integrity, simply because a human is human and an organization is an impersonal machine, sort of.
However, if you are going to breed that dog, all of the above isn't good enough, according to this debate. I like ayk's viewpoint, however. It is not up to the pet owner to mimic boar hunting activity. But are all breeders who say they want to preserve the breed, going to be able to test them? I don't think so.
The shikoku have been breed in North America for only a little over 3 years. Future breeders and owner have discussed the desire to hunt. I think it is premature to assume that statistics will be low on those who hunt. Especially since this breed has not been diluted (comparatively) and comes from a country who has this dog only for hunting.
And it is not about hunting "boar". It is about perserving characteristics and not being diluted to fit the needs of the mainstream. It is about them having high prey drives. Their instincts would be well used for hiking, S & R, other animals hunts. And there are near future shikoku breeders/owners looking to introduce their shikoku to hunting, S & R and other field work for wildlife agencies.
You talk about wanting a the shikoku or kishu for AKC trials, but what makes you assume that they will be good at that? And there is only one shikoku that comes to mind who participates and does well in obedience.
"The logistics of pitting your imported, expensive, beloved house and kennel dog against something like a wild boar becomes enormous on many levels."
That is what these dogs where built for. Why get a field/working dog if you aren't going to use it in a field or for work? So it can lay around the house and be miserable? Or be showcased in the ring, where the dog could careless. A lot of field/working/protection dogs are expensive.
"2) If there ever was a breed destined to be banned via Breed Specific Legislation, it would be the Shikoku with its wolf-like appearance. The AKC provides protection because it is the most highly respected and recognized and listened to dog registry organization in this country, it has a cadre of lawyers willing to fight such legislation and other issues as they come up in each state."
This is BS! There are dozens of breeds recognized by the AKC the experience BSL. The AKC does nothing when you can't get home owner insurance because you own an Akita or Rottweiler. The AKC does nothing when a town or county outlaws certain AKC breeds.
"The AKC is primarily a registration service and a highly effective one that no one questions."
Does that make it the AKC good??? If anything it is extremely detrimental since there is no room for change or improvement.
"3) The AKC provides shows and trials and activities all across the country. While there are other organizations and events, they are sporadic and spotty and often concentrated in one area. "
I find this to be the only real reason you want the shikoku/kishu to be AKC'd. I think one should think about what is best for the breed as a whole and not personal desires. You mentioned how the breeders of the Swedish Valhounds went through same thing (pre-AKC'd) and everything turned out alright. . Yet I am sure a poll would show the Shikoku to be far more appealing to the mainstream and in turn far more danger to be exploited.
"Some of you couldn't kill a rabbit."
I find that statement to be offensive and unnecessary. You barely know the audience that you speak to.
"Also, the AKC likes to talk about the integrity of its registration system and process. It will be difficult for one person to provide the same integrity, simply because a human is human and an organization is an impersonal machine, sort of."
An organization is made up of humans. Look at Crufts and their willingness to show/award dogs with deformations and major health problems. They lack MAJOR integrity.
Ask that of the next 10 people who will be getting puppies from the litters coming up within the next year. Ask the BREEDERS of these 10 puppies if they are going to sell only to owners who promise to find wild boar to chase.
Is the parent club going to put that stipulation in its Code or suggestions, that all puppies be sold to hunters only?
There is this wide gulf between idealistic "wishing" and the reality of living in the United States. John Q. Public doesn't just routinely go boar hunting as a part of his day....
The REALITY is that most of the dogs won't be used for hunting. The REALITY is that most of the breeders won't be selling them to hunters, no matter how much you wish otherwise. Boar hunters are not exactly standing on every street corner.
Just remember, no matter what side of the fence you're on, everyone is here sharing their views BECAUSE of their love for these breeds.
Let's not forget we're all nihon ken fanatics here
I find that statement to be offensive and unnecessary. You barely know the audience that you speak to.
I was merely making the point that those who don't hunt because they can't kill small animals are not going to be the mighty boar hunter working with her dog in the field. And SOME of those non-hunters are going to be getting Shikoku. It wasn't said to be offensive -- it's just the truth!
Sorry, I missed this paragraph. I'm all for it. If this satisfies in everyone's mind that doing these things is enough testing of those working characteristics, then I'm all for it. If this is what you meant by working in the field, then this would be wonderful. I fail to see how hiking (and tethered hiking, at that) preserves courage to hold a large animal at bay, but at least these activities are realistic and doable.
We're coming closer to agreement now.
I don't think it is about the courage to hold at animal at bay- especially a shikoku, but about their high prey drives, ruggedness, and reactiveness.
It doesn't need much of a club to arrange for FSS status. The Kishu doesn't even have a club -- it has a Registry, owned and kept by one person.
And btw, I'm not so naive to believe that the Shikoku should enter FSS status just because I want to do companion events with it. In looking overall at what would be best for the breed, I just don't think it would hurt to go that far but no further until a strong parent club was established.
I'd like to point out that every beagle and all the terriers, hounds and most of the cats I know retain LOTS of prey drive, despite being housepets. When I used to run our dogs loose at the field, Reilly, Sage, two goofy pet labradors, a field line Irish setter, two show-line springer spaniels, a pitbull mix and a beagle-toller mix ALL were hot for rabbits, turkey and dug out meadow voles- for the COMPLETE prey cycle (scenting all the way to swallowing- well, they didnt catch the turkeys, but they ate everything else) I am not sure the prey drive dies so easily. None of them were bred for sharp hunting, or trained, they just had the opportunity to DO it.
Whatever allows dogs to thrive in their real modern environment is what is best for them- and companion life is where its at for most US dogs in 2009. Even hunting homes don't hunt all year like in the old days when you HAD to in order to eat and needed a dog that WANTED to very badly every day. I think, like other breeds before them, shika can be successful companions while retaining their distinctive personalities and skills. Sure they were heroic in the past, but so was everyone else- None of us is Odysseus, either.
"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,--
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
and all that...
?
LOL, thanks Chrystal, imagine testing their huntability by having them track and bay one of these guys
SAR is actually a great use for shikoku - SAR dogs work by tracking the person, then barking to alert the handler of their whereabouts. It seems to me to be a natural adaptation of their hunting style.
Lure coursing is another thing shikoku could do. In fact, a field trial might involve scenting, luring, and baying. It's different for different registries, but in the CKC, Shikoku are classified as sight/scent hounds, much like Rhodesian Ridgebacks, which can participate in scenting and luring trials. Also, a field trial need not involve a real boar. There are currently trials involving hunting spitz breeds that involve use of a fake bear. I've seen videos of Akita being tested in this way.
The Russian/Scandinavian breeds (laika, Karelian bear dog, norwegian elkhound, etc) are a good case study for what could happen with the shikoku (and kishu and kai), as they are similar in many ways. People use them for their original purpose quite frequently, and they're popular SAR dogs and hiking companions. KBDs are used by National parks to help control wild life.
Another good example in another breed is the basenji. There is a group of people dedicated to importing African stock and using basenjis to hunt, as well as for SAR and drug detection. They have a yahoo mailing list that I subscribe to - it's really interesting. They are used as hearing assistance dogs, too
The number of shikoku is so small currently, that breeders are doing the breed a great service simply by increasing the gene pool and producing more healthy, good-tempered specimens. Importing new breeding stock and establishing a breeding community is just the first step - we're still in the foundation phase. It's a crucial phase, and I for one feel very optimistic about the people involved. This forum in and of itself has done the breed a great service.
I do plan on hunting with shikoku some day, and doing SAR, too. There are dangers, but there are also precautions you can take. Protective vests and GPS tracking devices, as well as knowing doggy first aid (learning canine first aid is required to do SAR in my area). Nothing's risk-free, but the benefits are enormous, in my opinion. There is a member of this forum who hunts with his Hokkaido.
As for the original question of AKC registration - they are primarily a registration service, and there are frighteningly few requirements for breeders to register with them, so regardless of whether they get accepted or not, the breed's future will depend on the breeders' decisions. I think it's really important to have a breed registry to keep track of breeding stock, but the Shikoku is already accepted by enough kennel clubs that that's already taken care of.
I still haven't voted. I don't know. The AKC itself won't do anything for the breed, it's still up to us. I mean, if we want field trials, that's a whole 'nother set of hoops to jump through (getting the trials accepted and sanctioned by the AKC and whatnot). We could do unofficial trials, but we can do that already, so AKC is really unnecessary, if you think about.
Hey, that gives me an idea... our North American Shikoku club should develop a trial to be used for testing Shikoku. Oh man, that would be so great!
I agree, Chrystal, but I'm wondering whether Dave would agree? Did you not say, Dave, that you were against turning these breeds into pets/companions? And didn't someone else say that if you don't select for hunting skills and instincts, you are going to lose it in two generations? This is the subject of another thread, maybe, but what is a caretaker to do?!
Heidi, that was such a good post that even I have nothing left to say!
Loved the boar costume picture -- perfect!