Critics Challenge 'Dog Whisperer' Methods
I found this article to be pretty good...
Critics Challenge 'Dog Whisperer' Methods
By Lynne Peeples, Scienceline
Thoughts?
----
Critics Challenge 'Dog Whisperer' Methods
By Lynne Peeples, Scienceline
Thoughts?
----
Comments
AFAIK, Jonbee has not a found a new home despite his celebrity status.
*No dog deserves to be terrorized during "training".... It only made matters worse. It just reaffirmed in the dog's mind that humans and strangers in particular can not be trusted. I won't rule out that some dogs have a less than desirable temperaments but that makes it all the more important to make sure that they rebound with the right training. Regardless the animal should have been treated with some respect and if you watch the episode the poor animal was completely in a state of shock and exhausted by the end of the filming. So all the poking and jabbing and rolling did absolutely nothing in the way of good. This is a prime example of where the dog was used as a test case for Cesar. Any good trainer knows that there is more than one way to do things which happens bit by bit and in stages over time.
I also think that Jonbee's owner was not the right match for a dog of that nature and energy. It takes proactive work to keep up the pace with dogs with socialization issues.
There was another case with a Sammy (crated in the garage actually) that ceasar was called in to work with for aggression issues. I think the dog would chase and bite strangers. Anyway, apparently that failed too. I believe the owners PTS when it bit someone again.
*So as you can see there are some things Mr. Cesar needs to learn more about the Spitizes and how the tick. Really it appears he has not had a good track record with them. I also will say the owners are a partner in all of this and it does take two to tango so I won't completely fault training but certainly will say that thinking about least abrasive methods, tips and tricks case by case will allow for a better solutions and outcomes.
Snf
----
WARNING: I consider this video to be very graphic:
I feel so sorry for the Tamaskan looking dog
The dog Cesar was walking started to stare down the other dog. I didn't notice anything worrying about the behavior, but for the sake of argument let's assume there was a pattern of behavior that Cesar recognized that he wanted to address. Cesar's solution? Kick him in the ribs. What does that cause? The dog redirects on him. Not good! Then, after the initial reaction, Cesar proceeds to choke the dog when all it is doing is trying to sit. That poor dog is expressing his discomfort with Cesar being abusive and it lands him more abuse. That is seriously fucked up IMO. I agree with Beth, that is pretty violent.
The proper way to train that dog for that situation is to teach him to focus on the handler when he is around other dogs. What Cesar is doing is teaching him to be wary of both handler and the other dog. Rather than kick the dog in the ribs, try redirecting. Turn and walk away or hold a treat up to get his attention. Cesar is just reinforcing that negative things happen when other dogs are around, the exact opposite of what you should be trying to accomplish in that situation. That is just one of many viable training alternatives.
My line of thinking is that if we want a dog to tolerate something (be it a box, a giant pink ball, another dog, or a noise), we need to associate that thing with something positive, i.e. a treat, toy, praise, etc.
So instead of turning a negative experience into a positive experience, Cesar makes it even more negative... Which actually enforces the dog's initial reaction. And that type of 'training' could even make the situation worse in the future.
A fearful dog is almost always an unstable dog...
Really? You feel this is a good way to solve a (or this) behavior problem? You haven't heard of a better way, so that means you feel kicking a dog in the ribs, choking it, and then forcing it down on the ground is a good way to deal with this issue?
I don't mean to pick on you, but, as Dave Roberts pointed out, take note of the first few seconds - that is a highly (dog) reactive dog showing pure barrier frustration and misdirected aggression - Shikoku do this A LOT. You are about to own a Shikoku, Shikoku are REACTIVE DOGS. Your Shikoku will be from Japan too (read as more reactive), and not from Katja, who has worked hard to produce softer (less reactive) Shikoku.
You need to be certain you understand this type of thing so you can properly read your Shikoku and can avoid situations like this. You should NEVER use these methods on a Shikoku, they are "handler soft" dogs - this dog in the video wasn't "handler soft", so he may recover from this abuse, a Shikoku or Kai would never recover from this type of abuse and your relationship with the Shika would be ruined.
I'll turn the question around to you: What about Cesar's methods, in this video, with this dog, did you feel were correct?
ETA: Don't forget about this post about Taro the Shikoku who was sent to a non-positive training camp and came back a mess.
----
Cesar says the dog was "in a dominant state". WTF does that mean? "He wanted to dominate" the other dog, and that's why his peeper was sticking out, so says Cesar. LOL. As if dogs relate sex to dominance... nope, sorry Cesar, only inmates do that.
How can a guy like that (Cesar) preach that its all about "Dog Psychology" and "dogs are dogs first", but then completely anthropomorphize a dog and relate sexual arousal to "dominance" and still have people think he knows what he is talking about? It's contradictory!
Cesar, are they dogs or are they people? Or do you think they are dogs, but they think like people? I'm confused Cesar, I thought this was "Dog Psychology", not people psychology... Wait, then you do an alpha role, because (you say) that is what dogs do to dogs... so now we are back to them thinking like dogs? Jeez, I'm confused...
Watch the start of the video, which dog stares at which dog first? The BC stares at the mix first (@00:03). You can even see the point where the mix dog notices the other dog is staring at him - note the mix dog's ears flick forward and alert (@00:05). Also note the BC's tail is up and wagging when he initiates the stare - yet later Cesar claims the BC's tail was between his legs (at the end) because of the other dog's "dominance" - huh? The other dog started it! (???)
----
I have not seen this whole episode, so I dunno what the background is, and that makes it very hard to give advice on training techniques.
From what I could tell... This lady had a BC and the mix dog and they didn't get along. The dogs obviously had other altercation, and have probably practiced all these negative behaviors a lot. Also, I dunno if the mix dog ever hurt the other dog, if he has not hurt the BC, and they have had lots of altercations, then he clearly shows restraint - so I wouldn't consider that to be a fight.
Anyway, based on what I saw, and the little background I have placed together (guessing), I would like to see this situation handled in one or more of the following ways...
1) I would like to see how the dog behaves with the other dog while not on lead - perhaps the source of the issue is the lead (barrier frustration).
2) I would work C.A.T. with both dogs, a full, intense, session with each.
3) The BC was clearly not confident and was fearful, so I would work on building his/her confidence via something like agility training or (positive) obedience. Same applies to the mix.
4) What Dave said, teach the dogs to look to the handler for direction - focus training.
5) Some classical conditioning couldn't hurt either of the dogs - make the presence of the BC mean lots of treats to the mix. Make it so when the 2 dogs sees each other dog they anticipates you giving them a treat.
6) Proper management. If I had to guess, the lady left too many opportunities for these dogs to have an altercation. I would help her find a better management plan, one that reduces the risk of fights so that the dog do not practice those behaviors.
That's a few suggestions, I may come up with more in a bit.
----
So here is a much shorter dimmed down version...
dogs signal to each other in very short bursts via eye contact, the long length of the look is something I DO think is of issue. It certainly means a throw down in reactive dogs.
I would start by putting two leashes on the dog. One attached to a gentle leader. If the dog jumps up, drop the other and step on it to avoid the animal coming back up. Also walk the dog on the right side furthest away until one can determine distance-reaction ratio.
Like dave appropriate redirection and re-focus work is essential.
Snf
PS: arousal in any form (not just sexual) in dogs can cause dogs to sweat through their paws, get an erection, drool tremble, pee or poo and a host of other behaviors. Dominance has nothing to do with it.
Ditto on brad's comments and points 1, 2 & 5
Snf
A BC stare is very threatening. Personally one of my least favorite breeds.
That said I feel bad for this BC who is terrified of Cesar and maybe Wolfy too. I remember being at a friend's house when I was very young, and her much older brother came in to annoy us and they began to fight. I was not involved, but I was terrifed being present, in a home that was not mine, having no advocate (parent) to stop the fighting or protect/remove me. I think that;s how the BC may feel.
agree with brad re penis crowning- this happens with anxiety, not dominance, but it is a slam dunk to point out to regular tv watching people who dont know better that it is and they will easily believe it.
What I am learning from my 4-month-old Kishu is that these dogs are sharp and very prey-driven. Anybody on this thread know a nihonken that could be described as "dopey?" Probably not - you take them outside and they crank the gain on all of their senses up to 11, information washes into them and they deal with it all by deciding whether they should try to kill it or run away from it. ANY negative energy you throw their way will hit them like a ton of bricks. I really think this is more the case with nihonken than with other breeds. So if you aren't extremely tuned into how your dog expresses their emotional state, AND also extremely deft with modulating the intensity of your correction, you are very likely to be making a MUCH LARGER statement to the dog than you think you are. So why risk it at all?
The funny thing is, a better way to deal with this hybrid vs BC situation is to do the stuff that Caeser actually SAYS: be calm and assertive - redirect the hybrid away from the BC and get him focused on something that he can resolve.
It's like brad says - Caeser has a set of talking points he uses that are not bad. But then he and his producers get him into situations like this where he basically gets into a fight with the dog and concludes that this is what a "pack leader" does. But that's not how dog alphas behave, its how monkey alphas behave. So it vibes with the human audience, because we're, you know, monkeys, and many of us have accepted primate dominance models into our psychologies. So which is it, Caesar? Are you trying to get people to think like dogs? Or are you trying to get people to force dogs to think like monkeys?
First off, the hybrid dog is nervous from the get-go. Look at the ears at 00:00. Whatever nervousness this big, sensitive, high-prey-drive dog has already acquired from being denied and corrected during his life with this owner, you can't tell me being led by a stranger with a camera crew nearby doesn't have something to do with it.
The BC is a herding dog, so he's got a natural tendancy to "break it up" and / or "keep it contained." I bet the BC spends a lot of time trying to get in between the hybrid and the people. The BC picks up on the hybrid's nervousness and is attracted to it. He's probably thinking he's got to get the other dog away from this dude. But, he's on lead and can't get over there, so HE gets stressed and frustrated.
Since this is a familiar situation for both dogs, the BC ends up staring at the wolfy dog and the wolfy dog feels that pressure on top of the other pressure. He has to DO something about the situation, and the only thing he is COMFORTABLE with is going back into "tussle with the Border Collie" mode.
But then Caesar kicks the dog in the ribs, which causes an extreme shock that is psychologically very painful to the wolfy dog. Borrowing a Kevin Behan term, the wolfy dog then "attributes" all of his stress onto Caesar.
And what does the wolfy dog want to do? Does he try to attack Caesar? Look closely. He protests and then he goes for the lead. He isn't going after Caesar, he wants to get AWAY from Caesar. The man just kicked him in the ribs! That whole altercation, the dog is trying to get away from this guy. He is scared and he didn't trust this guy to begin with, and then he gets kicked in the ribs, then he has to get into a fight with the guy, and loses.
What's the dog supposed to learn from that? Nothing I have read about dogs allows me to believe that the wolfy dog will be able to make any kind of association between the behavior and the fight with Caesar. The kick to the ribs and associated shock jerked the dog completely out of that mode.
Maybe SOME dogs would learn "be extremely careful and repressed when strange men are leading you otherwise they will hit you (for no reason.)" But a highly energetic, intelligent, alert, prey-driven dog? Probably not.
I don't know how the hybrid dog feels about having to bite Caesar to get him to let him go during this clip. But if the owners keep using methods like this on him, I will bet you he will learn to love biting people.
The only thing more disturbing to me than that video are the supporting comments. (tho some of the comments made me LMAO)
You see how far and horrible the dominance/alpha theory has gone in dog training? It only starts with that Cesar crap you see on TV. This is why I hate the concept so bad, it goes to such a dark place for many people.
----