"Fight Inhibition"
"Fight Inhibition" is a term (or theory) I came up with to describe the result of Jen and my type of dog management - which is allowing full-contact play.
Basically, Fight Inhibition the knowledge our dogs gain from the way we allow our dogs, from an early age, to engage in full-contact play.
By full-contact play, I don't mean we have a "let them work it out" management style, but we do have a more hands-off way of managing our dog's relationships with each other. Our management is somewhere between "just let them work it out on their own" and control-freak micromanagement.
When we lived in Atlanta, had few dogs, and a lot less space, we very much micromanaged our dogs. When we moved out here we had a slow transition from micromanagement to general management, and now its evolved to a hands-off approach that involves setting the dogs up for success and limiting confrontations without stopping them from being dogs and interacting naturally.
We spend hours sitting on our couch watching the dogs through the window. We watch them run and chase and just generally be nuts. Sometimes their craziness breaks into a little argument, we usually let these arguments go for a few second before we break them up - they usually end before we need to step in. Also occasionally we randomly break the dog's play up - we walk outside and give them treats when they are being nuts. This teaches them that at any second Brad and/or Jen may come out and give us something, in theory this keeps them from going full-on in play mode as they are always stopping to see if we will appear with treats.
Anyway, back to my new term: Fight Inhibition.
Since we allow our dogs to engage in full-contact play, where they are very rough with each other, they learn each others boundaries and how far they can push each other w/o a fight. This allows the dogs to have a range of intensity in their "corrections" toward each other - this gives them the ability to say (and understand the difference in) "hey, back off" or "hey, get the f#ck back you are pissing me off".
From going to dog parks as well as watching new dogs come into our family I have learned that the dog-to-dog correction is the thing that most frequently leads to a fight. so allowing our dogs to push each other to the limits of a fight during play allows them to better understand how far they can take a correction with each dog w/o it causing a fight - this is what I am now calling "Fight Inhibition".
It's my opinion that, when keeping multiple dogs, allowing full-contact play is very important to maintain the dogs' relationships. Full-contact play allows dogs to burn off social anxiety (aka fight-drive). Exercising your dogs will burn off energy, and anxiety, but not social anxiety. Dog's get social anxiety from living with each other, it's stressful, in a wild situation the dogs would burn off their social anxiety via the hunt - during a hunt they would experience physical contact, and would exercise the appropriate FAPs (like fight-drive); full-contact play allows for the same thing.
It's similar to a black-belt who has never spared full-contact, they are full of anxiety and fight w/ no outlet. While the black-belt who was taught via full-contact sparing has learned how much force is needed, and how much damage can be done, and burns of the natural fight-drive via these full-contact matches.
Again, this is JMO.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, do you agree with it?
Do you allow your dogs full-contact play? If not, why?
What management methods do you use at home (doesn't matter if you have 2 dogs or 30, I'd like to hear it)?
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Basically, Fight Inhibition the knowledge our dogs gain from the way we allow our dogs, from an early age, to engage in full-contact play.
By full-contact play, I don't mean we have a "let them work it out" management style, but we do have a more hands-off way of managing our dog's relationships with each other. Our management is somewhere between "just let them work it out on their own" and control-freak micromanagement.
When we lived in Atlanta, had few dogs, and a lot less space, we very much micromanaged our dogs. When we moved out here we had a slow transition from micromanagement to general management, and now its evolved to a hands-off approach that involves setting the dogs up for success and limiting confrontations without stopping them from being dogs and interacting naturally.
We spend hours sitting on our couch watching the dogs through the window. We watch them run and chase and just generally be nuts. Sometimes their craziness breaks into a little argument, we usually let these arguments go for a few second before we break them up - they usually end before we need to step in. Also occasionally we randomly break the dog's play up - we walk outside and give them treats when they are being nuts. This teaches them that at any second Brad and/or Jen may come out and give us something, in theory this keeps them from going full-on in play mode as they are always stopping to see if we will appear with treats.
Anyway, back to my new term: Fight Inhibition.
Since we allow our dogs to engage in full-contact play, where they are very rough with each other, they learn each others boundaries and how far they can push each other w/o a fight. This allows the dogs to have a range of intensity in their "corrections" toward each other - this gives them the ability to say (and understand the difference in) "hey, back off" or "hey, get the f#ck back you are pissing me off".
From going to dog parks as well as watching new dogs come into our family I have learned that the dog-to-dog correction is the thing that most frequently leads to a fight. so allowing our dogs to push each other to the limits of a fight during play allows them to better understand how far they can take a correction with each dog w/o it causing a fight - this is what I am now calling "Fight Inhibition".
It's my opinion that, when keeping multiple dogs, allowing full-contact play is very important to maintain the dogs' relationships. Full-contact play allows dogs to burn off social anxiety (aka fight-drive). Exercising your dogs will burn off energy, and anxiety, but not social anxiety. Dog's get social anxiety from living with each other, it's stressful, in a wild situation the dogs would burn off their social anxiety via the hunt - during a hunt they would experience physical contact, and would exercise the appropriate FAPs (like fight-drive); full-contact play allows for the same thing.
It's similar to a black-belt who has never spared full-contact, they are full of anxiety and fight w/ no outlet. While the black-belt who was taught via full-contact sparing has learned how much force is needed, and how much damage can be done, and burns of the natural fight-drive via these full-contact matches.
Again, this is JMO.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, do you agree with it?
Do you allow your dogs full-contact play? If not, why?
What management methods do you use at home (doesn't matter if you have 2 dogs or 30, I'd like to hear it)?
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Comments
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Beats watching tv
I think, that fight inhibition can only really be effective when the dogs initial play experiences (or experiences with dogs in general) are positive and aren't met with an over corrective dog. Tetsu didn't get as many positive play experiences as Tikaani, so his corrections are a bit extreme and his tolerance can be low. But then again, he might just be trying to make up for the fact that his main playmate is 3 times his size and must compensate to get the point across.
Fight inhibition develops between dogs with established relationships when they realize how far they can push corrections without inviting an over-the-top response.
Here's my experience:
I allow Lucy and Joey to have full contact with each other. It took them a few weeks to fully sort through issues, but I trust them completely to be together unsupervised at this point. They know their boundaries and do enjoy pushing them, but do not seem to egregiously go beyond them anymore. They have a solid relationship built upon fight inhibition.
Most of my neighbors do not understand dog behavior at all, let alone understand Shiba play styles, so Joey does not get full contact with the other neighborhood dogs. The only other dog in the neighborhood he gets full contact with is his good friend Roxy. Roxy is an under-socialized rescue husky mix (whom I adore beyond belief) that is extremely dog reactive. Evidence in support of Brad's fight inhibition principle: Lucy and Joey are the only dogs Roxy gets full contact with and they are the only dogs she gets along with.
Further evidence in support of Brad's fight inhibition principle: Joey is also a highly reactive dog. He and Roxy do get into arguments from time to time. When they first started playing together, the arguments would start over typical play behaviors like being caught while playing chase games. Over time, the intensity of the catch lessened to a level both were comfortable with so the chase games no longer lead to arguments (although corrections are still common). Fight inhibition. Similarly, at first tennis balls were a source of arguments (Joey holds tennis balls extremely high up on the value list). Roxy would get too close to Joey's tennis ball, he would correct harshly, argument ensued. These days, if Roxy gets too close, Joey has lessened the intensity of his corrections and no arguments happen. The latest argument between Joey and Roxy happened the other night when my roommate pretended to have a treat to get Joey to stand on his hind legs. The sign he has used to teach that to Joey is the same one Roxy has learned means jump. Well, Joey didn't like Roxy a) getting closer to his treat than he was and b) bumping into him while doing it. Argument ensued. If the past is any indicator, I suspect it will take one or two more tries before Joey correcting Roxy for getting too close to his treats will not lead to an argument.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make, is that fight inhibition develops over time between dogs that have a social relationship. At least it does if my understanding of fight inhibition is correct. :-)
Snf
Shoushuu & Kotomi are always together both supervised and unsupervised, with the exception of when they are in crates or Kotomi is in heat. I trust that they are comfortable enough with each other, they won't kill each other. They play fight together a lot, but when it becomes "too much" Kotomi will "tell" Shoushuu "off". Shoushuu is pretty arrogant and sometimes doesn't understand or seem to care when "enough is enough"...but Miss Kotomi is pretty tough for a little dog...she's been able to keep him in place and Shoushuu will finally get the hint and back off to give her her space. So, I generally don't intervene...it's an all "hands-off" approach...since they can have "arguments" and sometimes very nasty ones, but they do so without so much as a scratch...it's just all vocals.
Lynxiene & Shoushuu are ONLY allowed to be together AFTER I work and burn off any of Lynx's anxiety and/or pent up energy. For as arrogant as Shoushuu is, he isn't dumb...he respects Lynx. Shikoku are VERY smart! I mean...these dogs are "thinkers"...I swear Shikoku remember history and they remember it well. Lynx doesn't need to give him any physical correction (but she use to when he was a small pup and one extremely good correction as a young adolescent), all it takes now is "the look" and he will back off. I only allow supervised playtime and mostly they just "hang out" w/o any physical contact. For the most part, they just "ignore" each other and do their own thing. This is probably to do with mostly because Lynx perfers to play with her toys or me...but mostly the toys! lol. If she gets restless she will go bother Shoushuu for a little game of romp and wrestle. I think it would probably be okay to leave them alone together (now that Shoushuu respects Lynx), unsupervised but I have become very paranoid -sighs-.
Kotomi & Lynxiene...NEVER are allowed to play together. They were "okay" when Kotomi was a small puppy - they had limited play sessions on leash...but now all they will do is fight. Lynx wants to bully Kotomi and she is afraid of Lynx (when Lynx is "angry") so Kotomi becomes reactive. So I do a lot of management with them. I can still take them out and walk them together no problem and they are fine with one another...but we are constantly moving and then I have to keep Lynx in check to make sure she behaves whenever Kotomi moves too close. For the most part outside home they can temporarily "get along" (non-reactive) but at home they "hate" each other (extrememly reactive). So, they aren't allowed any physical contact. Maybe someday I will "fix" this but for now...it is what it is.
I do plan on adding soon another female puppy. Lynxiene I've decided to only allow physical contact with Shoushuu and maybe a few other male dogs. I've decided that I'd isolate her from the females once they reach a more mature state but any male dogs I get in the future she should be "okay" with. I will expect both Shoushuu and Kotomi to get along with all the upcoming pups. Based on their experiences with other puppies and dogs...I think this will be possible.
I plan on doing a "hands-off" approach so long as no one is being torn at and bleeding. Otherwise, I will intervene and correct immediately! I've never seen Shoushuu physcially correct another puppy or dog (yet), though I've seen him "harass/warn" other dogs before. Kotomi may sometimes sound nasty...but she is very fair and clear with her corrections. So I don't think I will have any problems...just gotta keep these new upcoming pups in check!
I'll probably be just as much of a paranoid...that I will only leave my dogs unsupervised in male and female pairs...and together as pack when supervised. We shall see how my pack grows and how things progress. With each new dog I gain another understanding and thus become a much better dog trainer cause of it. My dog management skills increase as well.
Having a multi-dog pack is never easy...and at times, can be quite stressful...but it's still very much possible. It just takes a little experience (trial and error), management skills and an understanding of dog behavior, as well as knowing the individual dogs involved.
Fight Inhibition. I like it. I was just talking to Jessica(rabbit) about this - great timing on the post!
I think when I say "we let them sort it out" this is more what I mean. No, we do not allow fighting, but we are lax on the rough play and tend to watch arguments pan out when possible, and separate as needed (when I become uncomfortable). We do not have the luxury of space per say, but we do what we can in our townhouse!
Its been ridiculously challenging (for me) matching youthful 24/7 exuberance of our bull-lurcher type dog with our generally sedate shibas who are used to 'their way', apparently. And my shiba aren't that old! But there is NO way I could effectively communicate with them about individual boundaries the way they can with one another. I leave them unattended now, only a few weeks into the arrangement, and filmed a bunch of it when we aren't there to review - they are fine together. I've only filmed one chaotic argument within their first month together, but it was settled within seconds (though it seemed longer watching it).
The only time we 'ref' is when things are uber exciting, like when we come home for the day or right after a walk, Maisy get x-penned until they are generally calm (otherwise, she basically hovers with teeth on Tsuki neck for lack of a better indoor outlet for herself [she's calmer in the field], and Tsuki gets to her breaking point faster and faster if we allow it), then they play rough, but not to any breaking point. We allow Tsuki (and kitsu, if he does) to correct her, and we allow full on play so long as a boundary isn't crossed that led to an argument-type reaction (I can't say fight, there is no real bloodshed other than face/ear/paw scrapes) though we do let it play out longer and longer so they become more comfortable amongst themselves. So i guess in a way, we limit the full on play to give the shibas their space in this transition with Maisy, but allow it as we feel we can so they can communicate better between one another.
I'd say since we adopted Maisy, we've only had maybe 3 argument type situations between the girls. No fights.
As an interesting aside, we met with a trainer about a month ago to help us gain footing in Maisy's leash reactiveness/barrier frustration. This trainer trained many reformed hunting dogs to become pleasant house dogs. She was SO NERVOUS watching our dogs play. She stepped in and interrupted them way more than we do and was shocked (in a bad way) that we allow them to play so fully. Even some 'professionals' aren't comfortable with "fight inhibition"
We didn't employ her beyond the intro evaluation..
Dogs are actually great communicators, and can figure out endless things when left "alone" in their own little worlds. I liken it to letting brothers and sisters discover and develop thresholds for their types of play, even if it doesn't always go smoothly. I think it strengthens relationships to let them work things out on their own. I think it also helps me understand their boundaries and to work within those limits while I'm enjoying their company. If I can readily jump into the relaxed style of play that they naturally prefer, then I spend less time guiding them into a game (or style of training) in which they may have no interest or tolerance.
I think I'll adopt the term fight inhibition. I like the way Brad has described it, and it makes me want to learn new things about my own animals. It also makes me realize just how smart and able these dogs are, and how lucky I am to share my time with these intelligent little guys. As much as I have or ever will teach them, they are always surprising me with how much they teach me about myself and my relationships.
I have a question. How do you keep the peace when a female is in heat? I have a bit of an idea about the dynamics among multiple females in heat (ie. doesn't have to be all out war), but how are the boys' reactions? What management do you do during that time, besides keeping the intact females away from the intact boys?
Do you find one male guarding the females from the other males? Are the males' interaction among each other still ritualized or has it turned serious?
Mine can play full out anytime with very few reminders from me. They are best friends, and can be pretty much allowed to play as they wish. I do not however, allow Beebe to bite at Ike in play especially his face. She will try to latch on otherwise and she has dug out a chunk or two. I also don't like it when she humps him because he looses his temper. He prefers to be the humper :)
Not surprisingly, I really think Dave did a good job of wording what I was trying to convey...
Dave wrote: Fight inhibition develops between dogs with established relationships when they realize how far they can push corrections without inviting an over-the-top response.
Exactly, it's a "relationship building" thing and NOT a method for introducing new dogs to one another. I guess you can think of it as a long-term (dog) family management principle, not something you would really start to apply until you know your dogs are past the initial new dog adjustment.
When we add a new dog, some of our dogs take to the new dog very quickly (Loa, Koan), while others take a long time (Ahi, Maui) - Ahi is just now starting to play with Luytiy. So, obviously, full-contact play comes much later in the process for Ahi and Maui than for Loa and Kona.
Also, we have a lot of guardians, and they tend to be very barrier frustrated, so when introducing a new dog we keep that in mind and limit any frustrated interactions. If you saw Blue on the other side of the fence when a new dog comes in your (and our) initial reaction would be to not let him interact at all - I mean he looks like he wants to eat the dog on the other side of the fence - it's really gross. Then you open the gate letting him meet the new dog face-to-face, and he acts as polite as a dog can act.
Point is: We don't have a set of rules for all the dogs, we have a set of rules for each dog independently.
One more point: "Fight Inhibition" is relationship specific. For example, Kona, Ahi, and Loa know how to play with each other but they don't necessarily know how to play with a new dog. The Fight Inhibition they have developed among each other helps them know their limits, and how to communicate those limits to the new dogs, but that new dog doesn't necessarily have Fight Inhibition, so the dogs have to start developing the Fight Inhibition, per dog, with the new dog. The more full-contact partners a dog has, the quicker they can learn Fight Inhibition in a new relationship as it gives them the confidence and tools needed to communicate limits effectively w/o a fight.
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Beth wrote...
"I think, that fight inhibition can only really be effective when the dogs initial play experiences (or experiences with dogs in general) are positive and aren't met with an over corrective dog."
-- I agree that a dog's initial play experiences play a huge role in this concept, but I think it's an issue of time and not effectiveness. A dog that has had bad (play) experiences (Maui, for example) would just take a much longer time to be comfortable with full-contact play (Maui is now ok to play full-contact with Kona & Loa - took 2 years to get there, but he got there).
I would even bet that once you got past the initial introduction period the more reactive dog would start to initialize play as he/she got more comfortable in the relationship... So really the dog would know when they are ready, not you (as the owner).
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Jen wrote...
"But there is NO way I could effectively communicate with them about individual boundaries the way they can with one another."
-- Nailed it! That is exactly the core of my point. We have found that when there is an altercation we have a hard time knowing for sure who started it and why it started - THAT is why we started being more hands-off.
The only time we 'ref' is when things are uber exciting, like when we come home for the day or right after a walk, Maisy get x-penned until they are generally calm...
-- This is another great point. I always tell Jen (and others), we are not managing our dogs as much as we are managing their energy levels. If they are very excited, then we need to separate into groups that "play well" or we KNOW their will be an issue.
"As an interesting aside, we met with a trainer about a month ago to help us gain footing in Maisy's leash reactiveness/barrier frustration. This trainer trained many reformed hunting dogs to become pleasant house dogs. She was SO NERVOUS watching our dogs play. She stepped in and interrupted them way more than we do and was shocked (in a bad way) that we allow them to play so fully. Even some 'professionals' aren't comfortable with "fight inhibition"
-- I have experienced this too. Trainers, even trainers I have a huge amount of confidence in their ability to read dogs, are not comfortable with full-contact play. I think this is because unstructured full-contact play is counter intuitive to a trainer. Trainers are all about controlled, structured, tweaking of dog behaviors to accomplish a goal. When things start to get uncontrolled, and the trainer looses control, they start to become uncomfortable with the situation. The more structured of a trainer (like a competition obedience trainer) the less comfortable they are with having no control.
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Corina wrote...
"Kotomi & Lynxiene...NEVER are allowed to play together. They were "okay" when Kotomi was a small puppy - they had limited play sessions on leash...but now all they will do is fight [...] I do plan on adding soon another female puppy. Lynxiene I've decided to only allow physical contact with Shoushuu and maybe a few other male dogs. I've decided that I'd isolate her from the females once they reach a more mature state but any male dogs I get in the future she should be "okay" with [...] I plan on doing a "hands-off" approach so long as no one is being torn at and bleeding."
-- This is interesting. It sounds like Kotomi & Lynxiene were never allowed to learn "Fight Inhibition". It will be interesting to see how Lynxiene does with the new pup, if she is allowed to play a lot from day 1, she should be able to play with the new females past the maturing point, because, by then, they should have established their "Fight Inhibition". Will be interesting to see - and a good test for this concept.
Having said that, Lynxiene is a Mal, and we all know they are a totally different beast. LOL
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Nicole write...
Dogs are actually great communicators, and can figure out endless things when left "alone" in their own little worlds.
-- Couldn't agree more.
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Ann wrote...
"I have a question. How do you keep the peace when a female is in heat? I have a bit of an idea about the dynamics among multiple females in heat (ie. doesn't have to be all out war), but how are the boys' reactions? What management do you do during that time, besides keeping the intact females away from the intact boys?"
-- Well, we separate. Our females have never been an issue with each other during a heat, and they usually pull each other in, so they are all in heat at once. They seem to kinda enjoy being with the other females while in heat, they are very loving to each other - and sometimes playful.
Meanwhile the boys are nuts, not blood thirsty fighting, just very consumed with their interest in the girls. Everything with the males intensifies when the girls are in heat, but generally they continue their same routines and rituals just w/o the girls. Usually we wait for a girl to enter the ovulation point, and then we just board the boys - no need for them to go through that stress, so we remove them from the property. We don't take any chances - we don't need an "oops", or a relationship ruining dog-to-dog fight over a female.
"Do you find one male guarding the females from the other males? Are the males' interaction among each other still ritualized or has it turned serious?"
-- Yes & yes. The issue with intact males around in season females is not as complex as all the hype seems to (want to) make it, it's very basic, IMHO: Males guard females when they are in heat - and an in heat female is a VERY HIGH value treat for a male. We handle it the same commonsense way we handle giving all the dogs RAW bones (or some other high-value thing) - we separate them.
If all the females are inside and the males outside, the males are jumping at the door and complaining at us - not fighting. The fighting would occur very near the female (and we obviously don't let them get that close).
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Lindsay - Blue, Luytiy, and Kona are intact.
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Though, seeing as we've mainly introduced adult dogs from an unknown/rescue background - I think I've had about 2 out of 7 (hachi & maisy) that within the first week - I felt allowing prolonged, generally uninterrupted interactions with both my shibas was beneficial to their relationship instead of risky or potentially harmful. And these two dogs have been the dogs with the least amount of issues with the general "pack" (I like "family" better) structure.
Its really hard to explain how we gauge time, interaction allowances and management of our dogs (foster and non) overall, but I think the principle behind your term "fight inhibition" does a really great job of explaining it. Its about building the foundations for their relationship, allowing them to BE socially healthy dogs and feel one another out on their own terms while taking a back seat on the control.
It's not too late though, they're already "immuned" to another (they know each other)...and I will eventually establish their boundaries (which I haven't, as I did Shoushuu & Lynx).
Most likely, with the upcoming puppy... Kotomi will be "off the hook" and ignored since the puppy will probably become Lynx's new fascination.
They don't have to like each other, but eventually, they should be able to run around together w/o any fights. I will be working on building their relationship before the new puppy arrives.
Kotomi & Lynx don't fight normally when we're out and about (maybe crate arguments here and there but rarely). Kotomi has walked up to Lynx, within her "bubble", next to her side and/or even muzzle/snout/mouth. Lynx did not react at all...she's been pretty calm and just ignored her (had Kotomi been a strange, random dog, I know Lynx would have reacted instantly and at home Lynx would never tolerate this with her either). They tend to have problems and fights at home only
Lynx is how she is because of her nature but also because for the longest time she was my only dog and thus pretty much became a "spoiled brat". I've intentionally or unintentionally reinforced certain behaviors, both perhaps unknown to me then. She knows she was spoiled, so doesn't understand now why she's "suddenly" being treated just like the other dogs.
Oh and "isolate" is actually an inappropriate term. I just meant I plan on avoiding situations with possible confrontations, rather then the "sink or swim" method of tossing them out and hoping nothing bad happens.
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By the way, Lynx has nothing to do with being a Malinois and everything to do with Lynx just being Lynx, lol. She's a different kind of "beast" all together