Victoria Stilwell vs Ian Dunbar: On Training

Comments

• Calia

  January 2010 edited November -1

  The thing with scheduled meals, especially with puppies, is that it makes it easier to have a bathroom schedule as well. By not giving access to food/water for my guys after 8 when they were pups, we were able to get a little more sleep before getting up to let them out (once I'm awake, it is very hard to go back to sleep). But what you do is somewhat dependent on how the dog is and what you are comfortable with.
  
  I could get away with something similar to Dunbar's feeding approach when Tetsu was a puppy as he would scream his head off if he had to go while in the crate. Tetsu actually was very good with housebreaking and whined and screamed when he had to really go. Tikaani on the other hand, would have been impossible to housebreak without an eating/drinking schedule as his method of telling you he needs to go is very very subtle (he stares at you in a similar manner as begging for food except he walks/turns away every few seconds, took me a bit to realize what it meant). While Tetsu would hold it in and scream; Tikaani would stare, realize that you're not paying attention, and just casually go to the bathroom. Outdoor pottying is a must for Tetsu, while it's seems like a favor to us for Tikaani. I don't think Tikaani would have ever been housebroken if he wasn't on scheduled feedings/water.
  
  But once housebroken and as adults, Dunbar's method can be very helpful to keeping a bored dog occupied as well as making a dog more 'in tune' to you. Tikaani is partially fed in a similar way now by use of a treat dispensing ball, which is his evening meal. This has kept him occupied and has kept him from gulping down all of his food at once. And if they don't eat within the morning meal time, I hype up the kibble as training treats, which really helps in making the food seem higher value.
  
  
  It is great that you are reading so many different training books, the more you learn the more you can customize your own style of puppy raising.
• WrylyBrindle

  January 2010 edited November -1

  Suzanne Clothier cautioned us against overdoing the puzzle toys/kongs for feeding- that overdoing it (as in all/most meals) will not allow the dog to get a satisfied full feeling that they need. She said for cats, however puzzle work for dribs and drabs feeding is more biologically natural. I suppose it depends on how good the dog is at the puzzle- Reilly empties them pretty quick, Sage gives up if they are too hard or annoying, but we are recreational Kongers/puzzle ballers.
  
  I think Dunbar's intention is just that the average person doesnt exercise, train, work or make their dog think near enough and that hed rather see them employ these puzzles than get frustrated with a bored, active puppy and resort to unsavory decisions in its care. I think he also means that putting dinner in the toy is more nutritious than filling them with addtional fats and calories beyond the meal. A pup thats had a good days play and training deserves an easy, satsifying dinner. Good boy!
  
  I woudl not want to USUALLY obtain my meals by putting in a quarter and turning a crank for a tablespoon of chow. I suppose if I had nothing else to do....I love blueberries, but I can only pick blueberries for about an hour in the sun with parents yelling and children whining and Jeff cajoling me to quit skipping plants and completely pick each bush in order, all the time being very alert for picking any large yellow spiders commonly found in blueberry bushes. (yeeeesh) Its fun to do sometimes, but to rely on this every day would drive me bananas. (blueberries?) and we all prefer our dog not be driven bananas.
• TaraA

  January 2010 edited November -1

  Thanks for telling about your experiences!
  
  It really helps more than reading tons of books. I think I might be reading too many training books at this point :p It's making me over think every aspect of training. I guess I'll have to adjust my methods depending on how my pup responds and what really works in my life.
• tjbart17

  January 2010 edited November -1

  I'm with Chrystal. I'm a recreational Kong and puzzle user. I don't use them to feed meals, let alone twice per day. Kongs have always been filled with healthy special treats here, where Koda keeps himself occupied by the novelty and tastiness of what's inside. I have usually used them to keep him occupied while I did something like go grocery shopping and leave the puppy out of the crate. Koda gets a mid-day Kong filled with frozen yogurt at doggy daycare. Most of the other dogs take a nap at this time, but my boy likes to lay on his mat and whine softly to get up, so he gets a Kong and it usually gets him to fall asleep. I guess I use them for behavior management mostly.
  
  Now your other questions...
  Stilwell says that a puppy can't sleep through the night without a potty break.
  FALSE some puppies can sleep through the night without a potty break. I used to pull Bear's water away at 6pm to get a good night's sleep. I have never pulled Koda's water away and he has slept through the night since he was 9 weeks old. This depends on your puppy.
  
  You will get it all figured out within a couple weeks of your pup coming home. You just need to get to know your dog, but you are getting great advice.
• violet_in_seville

  January 2010 edited November -1

  What is your schedule like? I'm a night owl, and so Violet wants to be up when I'm up. Subsequently her last walk is anywhere between 11:30 to 1:30 and she is not up at the crack of dawn. In the first few weeks we always took her water away right before we did her last walk, and that did help with her not needing to go through the night, however, now that she is older (especially because it is winter and the heater is on) we make sure she always has access to food and water.
  
  As for taking 3-4 weeks off right when you get the pup, I thought about doing that but was advised not to by my breeder. I took the first day off (and we picked her up on a Friday) and resumed regular work after that. The reason that my breeder gave was that this is a formative time and dogs are creatures of habit. You want them to understand your normal schedule, which will include being away at work. Violet's a shiba, so I'm not sure if it will be exactly the same, but you might want to ask your breeder about it. We also got her used to being in the x pen and playing with her toys by herself while we were in the house but out of the room. The first week she cried regularly (though with decreasing intensity each day) because we figured there would be times when we would be in another room or puttering around the house and not playing with her and she better get accustomed to it.
• BradA1878

  January 2010 edited November -1

  I think the point of getting up and taking a puppy out at night is to do it before the puppy wakes up. This prevents the pup from getting on a schedule of waking up & crying - it helps them learn that you will let them out before they needs to "ask" to be taken out. If you do this for long enough, you can slowly scale back the number of time you are getting up to take the pup out and eventually the pup will sleep through the night. They learn that there is no need for them to wake you since you wake up and take them out anyway... This way, the crying in the crate and have accidents doesn't become a learned behavior.
  
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• tjbart17

  January 2010 edited November -1

  I think I am just really really lucky. Koda never had an accident in the crate, cried in it (my breeder had him in one since birth), or cried when he got up in the morning. I've always had to wake him up since the little man can sleep until 11am on his own.
• TaraA

  January 2010 edited November -1

  @Brad- Thanks for the advice! I guess I'll wake the pup at night 2 or 3 times to go potty until I figure out how long the pup can hold it.
  
  @Janie- That definitely makes sense. Maybe I'll just take an extra hour off from work each day around mid morning so I can let the pup out to go potty and go on a short walk. Plus I'll come back during my lunch.
  
  Does anyone know how old a puppy needs to be before it can hold its bladder up to 4 or 5 hours during the day. 3 months? 6 months? or does it depend on the dog?
  I think I'll ask my breeder Katja what she thinks too.
• sjp051993

  January 2010 edited November -1

  I have found it varies with each dog. I got lucky with Tora, she right from the get go was able to make it through the night. I think all my Shiba's were housebroke in the first week they came home, and were sleeping through the night within the first 2 months.