Feeding Time for MultiDogs!
Feeding time for multidog situations- let's hear it! While we wait for Blue and Luytiy to return from their sabbaticals so Brad can share Ranch Style dog dinner with us, let's talk feeding rituals!
Although I have been advised to make them do stays or something while I get food ready and wait until released to eat, I find this too dictatorial and unnecessary for this particular owner and these particular dogs. They have no guarding issues between them, and enjoy a calm meal attitude. Sometimes they hang out in the kitchen watching me, Sage will lie down next to me but they are not underfoot or annoying. I assemble dinner, and try to keep track of which bowl I put who's medicine in. (Sometimes I forget and have to stir it around and try to find and ID a pill to remember whose is whose- this is most unfortunate on tripe day...)
Bowls go on the floor in the studio (actually Reilly's bowl is on a wooden box- she has long legs and looks more relaxed when her food is raised a little), or for smelly meals, outside on the deck "Would you guys like to eat al fresco? I sure would like it if you did...." Reilly finishes first and waits for Sage, then they go check each other's bowls for flavors.
I have fed 4 dogs at once on my own in the kitchen. Two were my sis' dogs, who are used to doing the down stay and release before eating. The extra order to the process is in place because her male is a food guarder and will guard the closet door where the box is kept when he stays here and even residual flavors where something was dropped on the floor yesterday. I put her two on one side of the kitchen counter and mine on the other where they are used to. With hers in stays, mine stand around and wait. I dont feed them in any particular order. Laura's dogs will wait for the OK anyway.
I am careful to watch her RG dog after dinner because he actually gets a very small ration and is done quickly, so he must be given something to do or get pats or something lest he wander over and 'ask' if he can have a taste of anyone else's. Once the bowls are empty I send them all outside and we dont get into bowl swapping.
The dogs eat dinner earlier than the people. When we people eat supper, my dogs are allowed to lie on the floor next to me but they are NOT allowed to drool on my leg, nudge my elbow, whine, paw at me or otherwise be annoying. They have it worked out that Sage lies on my right and Reilly on my left (same way they leash walk, incidentally) Sage is never annoying, but Reilly sometimes needs a reminder to lay down. I like having them by me and they leave everyone else alone. If they are lying quietly for a long time, and I dont have to remind them, I will grant them a tiny corner of whatever our protein is, or a carrot, sometimes a noodle. Works for us.
Although I have been advised to make them do stays or something while I get food ready and wait until released to eat, I find this too dictatorial and unnecessary for this particular owner and these particular dogs. They have no guarding issues between them, and enjoy a calm meal attitude. Sometimes they hang out in the kitchen watching me, Sage will lie down next to me but they are not underfoot or annoying. I assemble dinner, and try to keep track of which bowl I put who's medicine in. (Sometimes I forget and have to stir it around and try to find and ID a pill to remember whose is whose- this is most unfortunate on tripe day...)
Bowls go on the floor in the studio (actually Reilly's bowl is on a wooden box- she has long legs and looks more relaxed when her food is raised a little), or for smelly meals, outside on the deck "Would you guys like to eat al fresco? I sure would like it if you did...." Reilly finishes first and waits for Sage, then they go check each other's bowls for flavors.
I have fed 4 dogs at once on my own in the kitchen. Two were my sis' dogs, who are used to doing the down stay and release before eating. The extra order to the process is in place because her male is a food guarder and will guard the closet door where the box is kept when he stays here and even residual flavors where something was dropped on the floor yesterday. I put her two on one side of the kitchen counter and mine on the other where they are used to. With hers in stays, mine stand around and wait. I dont feed them in any particular order. Laura's dogs will wait for the OK anyway.
I am careful to watch her RG dog after dinner because he actually gets a very small ration and is done quickly, so he must be given something to do or get pats or something lest he wander over and 'ask' if he can have a taste of anyone else's. Once the bowls are empty I send them all outside and we dont get into bowl swapping.
The dogs eat dinner earlier than the people. When we people eat supper, my dogs are allowed to lie on the floor next to me but they are NOT allowed to drool on my leg, nudge my elbow, whine, paw at me or otherwise be annoying. They have it worked out that Sage lies on my right and Reilly on my left (same way they leash walk, incidentally) Sage is never annoying, but Reilly sometimes needs a reminder to lay down. I like having them by me and they leave everyone else alone. If they are lying quietly for a long time, and I dont have to remind them, I will grant them a tiny corner of whatever our protein is, or a carrot, sometimes a noodle. Works for us.
Comments
Man, when I make our feeding vid you guys are gonna make us look like chumps, we don't do any "sit by the bowl and wait" things. LOL. We do make the Akita, CO, and Blue settle a bit before they get their food, but nothing fancy. I think our concern is just getting them their food w/o any arguments. You will see once I make the vid.
We could never feed like the Shiba video above... Well, we could feed our NK like that, but the CO and CC are VERY food possessive toward the other dogs.
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Anyway, here is the deal... What would we get out of feeding like the Shiba video above? What value does that really add? What's the point? Is it just for show? Is it a power trip for the people?
I mean, I would rather our dogs eat w/o any confrontation, or potential for confrontation. The risk is too high and the reward too small. We could stand there and feed our dogs like that, sure, but the potential for an issue makes me wonder why we would do it.
Seriously, convince me why feeding like that (the video) is important (please). I'm interested to know why. I've seen a few videos like that, and I'm admittedly very impressed by them, but when I really think about it I'm not sure I see the point other than just simply for the challenge (and showmanship) of the training.
Is it because it makes the dogs "work" for their food? Does that really matter to the dogs or their social structure?
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We make Ruby sit and stay until we release the stay only because her biggest training obstacle is impulse control. So I can see controlling feeding situations as a means to reinforce impulse control. But beyond that, I got nothin'.
With the boys, we do tell them to sit/stay before putting the bowls out, but that is help give me time to organize before puting the food down. When feeding my guys, I have to also worry about the rest of my family's dogs (who are on different diets and can be pretty food reactive). So by giving my boys the sit/stay, I can keep them from following me when I put food out in another room to keep the other dogs from bullying my guys when they eat.
EDIT: Can't wait to see how you feed your dogs Brad, sounds like it would be fun to watch:)
If the dogs are not trusting or trustworthy, then yes, they absolutely should be fed apart in a secure environment. It's not worth the multi-dog fight that can ensure.
-- That's an interesting point/take. I can see what you are saying, for sure. I may even agree, except...
Doesn't feeding like that increase competition? They are rushing to finish so that the next dog doesn't get their scraps.
Feeding like that also assumes each dog eats the same thing and values food at the same level. In a multi-dog household like ours, that's not the case. For example, Maui will not eat his food all in one setting and doesn't value it like Blue does, so we have to separate him. Also, the CO seem most comfortable eating in their crate, in their own "space", if we try to feed them in a different location they will not eat - they're very sensitive to change (granted they would eventually get used to the new routine).
In a situation where all the dogs eat the same food, and at the same speed, I can see there *maybe* being a "trust exercise" there, I guess.
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that food is not going to be a scarce resource to squabble over
-- Don't you want food to be valuable? Otherwise we would all just free-feed, right? If the dogs do not highly value their food then you have lost an important motivator in training, right?
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I think a real test of trust is when one dog has food but the other doesn't. Tikaani finishes before Tetsu, but neither of them try to bully the other from getting the remaining food. Tikaani will lay and wait for Tetsu to finish, and once Tetsu walks away, Tikaani eats the remainder. But if my sister's dog doesn't have food while the others are eating or he has food and they are watching him, he will growl/snap/guard the food or even an empty bowl. But throw some food at all of them and they are more focused on the food than each other.
Seriously though, signs of resource guarding can start very early and it has to be nipped in the bud quickly via human guidance to prevent scrappy behavior going the wrong direction. Once RG is habituated it is really difficult , darned near next to impossible to extinguish.
Again, have often seen bad cases in mill dogs or byb dogs that are housed in too close quarters as pups with little intervention or early handling along with inconsistent feeding or resources and with territorial bitches. Some females will actually turn on the pups and the pups learn it that way as a part of a feeding ritual.
I won't rule out that there may be a temperament predisposition but poor management can make it a whole lot worse.
Snf
I personally don't get the whole sit/stay/wait until I release you to eat. But some people are like that even with their kids. I have seen parents sit children 3 years old at the table, make them wait quietly for the adult to put food on their plates, then make them wait for the parents to serve themselves, then they can eat once the parent has taken the first bite. I mean isn't this true ettiquete and manners? I think it's more of a human issue than doing anything good for the dogs. Now that's if I am speaking about a dog like Koda who stands quietly while I prepare food and never tries to eat my hand when I am putting down the bowl.
If a dog does have out of control issues at feeding time, then yes I would make them sit. It all depends on the dog. But the vid dogs seem like well behaved animals at feeding time in general, so I can see why it's a raised question.
-- It probably makes me a "crazy person" or something, and I'm not arguing at all, but I just want to be honest on something...
I don't care if my dogs resource guard from each other. I think its normal. I honestly question the situation more when I see a dog that never resource guards.
I'm talking dog-to-dog here, resource guarding from a human, any human, is another story. We don't tolerate that, if we see it, as we did with Huna at 3 months of age, we work many many hours to gain the dogs trust and show them that we are not going to steal their stuff.
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Actually the worst case I saw was a lab and labs pulled from a mill. Go figure. So I won't categorize it by breed or duties. I also had a problem Shiba that just could not be integrated given the resource guarding of food, crumbs, etc. Most pups from the mills will just hide or look at objects or bowls like they are crazy weird things but actual food items sometimes can be a challenge. Again it depends on the situation and particular animal(s). Most are very sweet though and not a problem.
Snf
-- Haha... Yea, I would draw the line there too. That's not acceptable, and not what I would consider "normal" dog behavior. I guess that is resource guarding, but I think I should clarify what I wrote...
To me, resource guarding is a dog's way of communicating what they value, and at what level. If you do not allow a dog to do basic resource guarding they will never form a proper social structure (based on values and limits). When I write "resource guarding" tho, I am speaking of displays (showing teeth, growling, staring), I am NOT talking about out-right attacking another dog for a resource - that's not acceptable - and in that type of situation I would look to conditioning, management, and training to help that dog - as he/she obviously has some "issues".
Our dogs can argue, growl, stare, and show their teeth all day, I have no problems with it, but I do not tolerate unprovoked fighting and/or aggression. Dogs get time-outs, restricted activity, and a "short leash" for that type of behavior. We use their freedom as a reinforcer for proper, and polite, dog-to-dog behavior.
I will add, at feeding time, if the dogs don't eat their food in 15 minutes or so, we pick the food up. So this obviously reduced resource guarding and raises the value of the food.
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As for structured feeding and wanting the dog to focus on "me" or "us" (the humans in the house), and the idea of a "trust game", I prefer my dogs to think for themselves and problem solve on their own. I'll reinforce proper problem solving to sculpt their behavior/reactions/social skills (and teach them dog-to-dog manners) but I do not expect my dogs to look to me for guidance on this (or everything) - that would drive me insane.
I should not have to stand there while dogs eat so that my presence "pressures" them to behave while they eat, they should do that on their own - they should learn proper dog manners w/o my human guidance. Otherwise you cannot say your dogs truly "get along".
I've thought about this a lot and with structured feeding and the "trust game," I fail to see the connection of trust here - where is the trust in having to be the ever-present and always watching "police"? We trust our dogs and their social skills, and that is why we don't have to always watch everything that goes on or pressure them during feeding.
There's a phrase that keeps coming to mind here: "Learned Helplessness". I see this a lot in dogs, and I see it in some of ours, and I cannot stand it. Sorry Lani, or Huna, if the leash is wrapped around your leg while we are walking, figure that sh!t out! I'm not gonna unwrap your leg, you're the tard that got it wrapped to begin with!
Same applies to resources, if my dogs don't want another dog to take their stuff, they need to learn to communicate that properly - on their own - and not look blindly at me for direction and advice. If a dog cannot do this on their own, then, IMHO, they have a condition I would phrase a "Social Deficit" - and in the case where they need to look to humans for guidance in making a decision on how to act in a social setting, then I would say its a "Learned Social Deficit".
JMHO
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Say that you have a pack of hunting NK. They pull down a high prize item like a deer or piglet.
Which behavior would you desire in your dogs then?
From observation there are privileges that some will extend to others but not all during feeding. It is interesting to watch the give and take between an established group. Basically as I see it the owner feeding ritual seen in the video establishes a routine and fairness structure that probably makes it easier for human to manage... Just my take. I would much prefer that to chaos or potential chaos waiting to happen.
Snf
Now about that problem-solving, when I began training them to look at me, it was a problem-solving activity for them, they had to figure out how to get there food. Another way I have them work, is by hiding treats around the house and figure out how to get it. This activity also helps them to use there nose more than any of their other senses and just to be a dog.
I notice that some are saying "consider the breed". What does the breed have to do about feeding time? In my opinion breed has nothing to do with it. All animals and people need to eat. Your fulfilling animal not breed.
I also want to point out that I am describing the way I like my dogs to exist at home; in public we follow the typical social protocols. However, I think the management and social structure we have here, at home, allows our dogs to be more socially aware when meeting news dogs - hints why we are so successful in bringing new dogs into our home of all breeds and ages - our dogs know how to be dogs and speak "dog" very well - as they do not suffer from a learned social deficit from us constantly making decisions for them.
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"Question then...
Say that you have a pack of hunting NK. They pull down a high prize item like a deer or piglet.
Which behavior would you desire in your dogs then? "
-- TBQH, I am failing to make a connection here, so I may not answer your question perfectly. If I miss something please let me know - and sorry if I am mentally slow. LOL
Assuming my "pack" of NK follow the typical hunting methods for the breeds, I would expect them to track, find, and hold the game at bay, perhaps attempting to catch if they feel comfortable, until I am there to dispatch it. Once dispatched, the hunt is over and I would expect them to stop - hints my note above about them listening to me when I ask (them to stop).
That is how I would like them to act, if you want to know how I think they would actually act...
Well, I would expect them to work together to track, find and bay the game, once bayed, I would expect a certain level of "arguing", but no more than what I see when they become excited on a walk about a bunny, or guarding the fence line from a Coyote, or they catch a critter in the yard, or they find a high-value item... In other word, I think their would be some conflict and displays - but no fights. I'm a realist, so I would accept some conflict as part of the equation, however I would expect their learned social skills and problem solving to prevent a fight (i.e. "fight inhibition"). Once the game is dispatched, I think they would have exerted enough energy to where they would be less likely to argue anymore.
I'm not a hunter tho, so this is a totally hypothetical, and somewhat uneducated, opinion.
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As a hunter, I cannot have dogs that resource guard. For me, Ann's question was an excellent one. If you don't hunt, you'll probably have a harder time appreciating the need to nip resource guarding in the bud. Baying, or catch, pretty much any big game dog, once the prey is down, will head in to bite. Most hunters will do their best to have their dogs calm down as soon as possible after a successful hunt, but naturally the dogs are pretty riled up. Dogs that resource guard will start fights over the prey. Some dogs will even attack their owners if not trained properly. My friend has a Shikoku mix that he runs a lot, and that dog scares the shit out of me. If I'm the first one to the pig and we take it out, she has tried to attack me on numerous occasions, defending the kill until her owner gets there.
Now there is the train of thought that if you train your dogs not to perceive the prey as food, but the whole hunt as a fun game, then you'll have less of this problem. Teaching your dog from an early age to lose interest once the prey is down, not feeding hunting dogs raw (especially the prey you intend for them to hunt) etc. Then of course some hunters feed their dogs the prey they want them to hunt, utilizing the natural connection between hunting prey/feeding. Personally I'm still on the fence on this one.
Either way, anything that my dogs try to resource guard, I then work on to reduce that guarding behavior. Hence feeding them together, with their bowl right next to each other while I talk to them, pet them, and dig around in their bowls. Baron eats a lot faster then Haru, and when I first started feeding them together he would try to get into her bowl after he was done with his. I correct him when he does this, as if I don't, Haru will. Haru has learned to trust that I won't let it happen, and now doesn't freak out when they eat together.
Just a mental picture for anyone who's dogs go nuts over getting a raw bone now and again. I know people have commented on how their dogs are not protective over their normal food, but when it comes to raw... Well when you hunt big game, you have a pack of extremely excited dogs, and the prey is basically one big enticing raw bone.