Also, I forgot to tie one thing from my post with the Turid Rugaas thing - I think dogs are born with (instinctual) social FAPs (calming signals being one of them) that are used to communicate dog-to-dog. As Dave wrote, it is the process of social maturity (aka the "puppy pass") and learning that teaches dogs how to hone these social FAPs into real dog-to-dog communication.
However, I do not think dogs are born with social FAPs (including "calming signals") written specifically (or intended) for dog-to-human communication. We humans learn these "social signals" and dogs learn our "social signals" - our ability to communicate is not pre-programmed - but our ability to learn to communicate is.
LOL, funny how one conversation transitions into another...
...so protectiveness in Japanese dogs?
I'm too brain-dead to write any novels. I'll let everyone else do the work .
-watches thread-
Uh, well, since we're on an off-note...my dogs are weird.
I've noticed the dog to dog and dog to human greeting amongst my crew. Lynxiene and Shoushuu will posture at first. All my dogs will posture with any other dogs. Shoushuu and Kotomi are pretty tight so when they are away from each other for a few hours and reunited...they greet each other with pounces, wagging tails and lots of kisses (I catch them making out every now and again)! When my dogs "greet" me...they get all "silly", jump on me and run around...and the girls are always whiney. There are times though when they just ignore me =/ or calmly walk up and sit down in front of me or posture if they smell something "funny" on my clothes.
Brad, Dave, thanks for making your points clearer! I guess I don't 'catch' everything you mean and since I am not familiar with all the terms you use I tend to draw my own conclusions. Plus it's the language barrier, how I wish English were my first language! So I apologise if I seem a bit aggressive, I value your inputs very much and I've already learnt a great deal from you!
Offtopic, could you expand more on posturing? Or is there a specific topic for this?
@Irina: You don't sound aggressive at all! I for one welcome thoughtful challenges to my conclusions. I'm by no means an expert on dog behavior or communication. Honestly, I'm not all that well read on the subject either. I get bits and pieces from some of my friends who are well read and form my own conclusions through my observations informed by those bits and pieces. So please feel free to challenge anything. At least it make for insightful conversation and more likely you may point out something I (or others) have not considered in making an argument. Everybody wins. :-)
Brad - I think through the process of domestication, dogs have come to accept humans as their family members. They treat us differently than other dogs, which I suppose, is the same as me treating my dogs differently than I treat my human family members when I see them. I don't scratch behind anyone else's ears, lol.
But really, for the past thousands of years, dogs that are dangerous around human children have been culled, usually killed. Even today, a dog bites a kid, and that's pretty much it for the dog. Especially since dogs started out as being "community pets"; rather than one individual or family owning a dog, there were usually a group of dogs collectively owned by the community. Only dogs that fit well into a human community are going to be kept around.
Good point on the culling thing, Heidi. I agree that its probably plaid a huge role in reducing dog-to-children (and dog-to-human) aggression across all dog breeds, but I still do not think that is enough to give dog's instinctual knowledge of the vulnerability of any specific type of human.
As for dogs accepting us as family, I agree with that too, and most of us accept them as family as well. I still don't think that means dogs have instincts designed specifically for dog-to-human communication/co-existence. If dogs had those things, instinctively, then why do some dogs become feral? Or why would any dog become feral w/o human contact?
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Irina - Your English is better than mine! No worries!
You asked: "Offtopic, could you expand more on posturing? Or is there a specific topic for this?"
>> In dogs, the term "posturing" is used to describe the different full-body communications dogs make. A good example of friendly posturing is the "play bow".
Wow! This was wonderful to read! I am sorry I have not done anything since posting the question. It has unfortunately been a long and draining week. (
Everyone has really given me a lot to think about! Way more than I was actually thinking about even when I started the post. I had an experience when I was very little which always made me wonder - I was around 4 years old I believe. My parents' friend had two chows as watch dogs. When we visited, I thought of them as teddy bears and decided to go play with them. It totally freaked everyone out, and they all thought I was going to be bitten (I was a bit of a high energy kid). Instead, they played great with me and then wouldn't let ANYONE near me. My parents had to coax me away from them. So, I don't know if they thought I was like a new play thing and were resource guarding their new toy/friend... I guess I liked the idea they might have just had this uncanny connection with me, lol.
As far as Akita's with children...I had heard they were not good with kids, but I heard that about chows and pit bulls and so many other "aggressive" breeds, that I think I just decided it might be a lot of hype. I know I really want to work a lot with my dog and my sister's kids as we are all very close. I want the dog to see them as family members, even if they do not live with me.
Comments
However, I do not think dogs are born with social FAPs (including "calming signals") written specifically (or intended) for dog-to-human communication. We humans learn these "social signals" and dogs learn our "social signals" - our ability to communicate is not pre-programmed - but our ability to learn to communicate is.
----
...so protectiveness in Japanese dogs?
I'm too brain-dead to write any novels. I'll let everyone else do the work
-watches thread-
Uh, well, since we're on an off-note...my dogs are weird.
I've noticed the dog to dog and dog to human greeting amongst my crew. Lynxiene and Shoushuu will posture at first. All my dogs will posture with any other dogs. Shoushuu and Kotomi are pretty tight so when they are away from each other for a few hours and reunited...they greet each other with pounces, wagging tails and lots of kisses (I catch them making out every now and again)! When my dogs "greet" me...they get all "silly", jump on me and run around...and the girls are always whiney. There are times though when they just ignore me =/ or calmly walk up and sit down in front of me or posture if they smell something "funny" on my clothes.
Offtopic, could you expand more on posturing? Or is there a specific topic for this?
But really, for the past thousands of years, dogs that are dangerous around human children have been culled, usually killed. Even today, a dog bites a kid, and that's pretty much it for the dog. Especially since dogs started out as being "community pets"; rather than one individual or family owning a dog, there were usually a group of dogs collectively owned by the community. Only dogs that fit well into a human community are going to be kept around.
As for dogs accepting us as family, I agree with that too, and most of us accept them as family as well. I still don't think that means dogs have instincts designed specifically for dog-to-human communication/co-existence. If dogs had those things, instinctively, then why do some dogs become feral? Or why would any dog become feral w/o human contact?
----
Irina - Your English is better than mine! No worries!
You asked: "Offtopic, could you expand more on posturing? Or is there a specific topic for this?"
>> In dogs, the term "posturing" is used to describe the different full-body communications dogs make. A good example of friendly posturing is the "play bow".
I hope that helps.
----
Everyone has really given me a lot to think about! Way more than I was actually thinking about even when I started the post. I had an experience when I was very little which always made me wonder - I was around 4 years old I believe. My parents' friend had two chows as watch dogs. When we visited, I thought of them as teddy bears and decided to go play with them. It totally freaked everyone out, and they all thought I was going to be bitten (I was a bit of a high energy kid). Instead, they played great with me and then wouldn't let ANYONE near me. My parents had to coax me away from them. So, I don't know if they thought I was like a new play thing and were resource guarding their new toy/friend... I guess I liked the idea they might have just had this uncanny connection with me, lol.
As far as Akita's with children...I had heard they were not good with kids, but I heard that about chows and pit bulls and so many other "aggressive" breeds, that I think I just decided it might be a lot of hype. I know I really want to work a lot with my dog and my sister's kids as we are all very close. I want the dog to see them as family members, even if they do not live with me.