Let's talk Territoriality
Having watched some nature specials recently, I am reminded of how predatory animals can have Territories. (Maybe we distinguish from migratory prey animals who have routes and ranges, but I dont know that say, zebras or rabbits defend land, or if they do, then we have to factor in the prey-animal nature of their motivations, which goes too far away for this discussion.) They defend these Territories from wanderers, and unless they get evicted from their own Territory, or their own Territory runs low on resources (available prey), everyone understands that if we all stay in our own Territory there's no need for exhausting and expensive conflict.
Thinking today about how much of this remains in our dogs. Obviously there are individual dogs who have an open door policy (and breeds who tend to be more likely to have an open door policy than others) and there are dogs who have been selected to guard a piece of land. Brad has discussed the difference between personal and property guards before, (do flock guards come under property guards, or are flock guards a third category? comes down to motivation I suppose?) I don't mean food/object guarding or family guarding, I am specifically thinking of house/yard/acreage.
Is Territoriality ("sensitivity to home range" work for everybody?) a fading trait of more ancestral-end dogs, or an enhanced trait as a result of selection? An English Mastiff's job is to guard the property, a husky will let everyone in and serve them tea. A husky is emotionally comfortable travelling- because he is not Territorial. He was selected for travel.
Does it follow then that a Mastiff or guardy-end individual would be less emotionally comfortable/stressed travelling to other territories or public "Everyman's Lands" than other dogs? Maybe because he knows his Territory is unguarded, or maybe because he 'gets' Territory and knows you stay in your own space and don't go in others'? That the marks he smells are not his and he doesn't belong there?
If guardiness is linked to fear/anxiety in a dog- only a dog upset enough by intrusion will react with enough oomph to be an effective (selected/employed) guardian- ...crap... I lost my thought. When I remember I will edit my message to add it... what of a confident individual? A confident individual might feel perfectly fine walking all over town, unthreatened by leaving home for a bit, and not too worried about his safety off-home, or his home's safety. But surely a secure confident guardian exists, or maybe we note that everyone's confidence is relative to the circumstances, so maybe anxious/confidence is best discussed as widely confident (his home is under his hat), and specifically confident (I'm a wreck in public but secure and confident at my home?)
It is said that a Bernese Mtn Dog bonds securely with his owner such that it is difficult to rehome them after 18 months old or so, they become so distraught. Is a Territorial dog (of whatever kind) dramatically distraught if he is moved to a new Territory? I am guessing it just takes time for them to make it their own, but who knows if there is a Berner of Territory?
Work on this with me
what do you know?
Thinking today about how much of this remains in our dogs. Obviously there are individual dogs who have an open door policy (and breeds who tend to be more likely to have an open door policy than others) and there are dogs who have been selected to guard a piece of land. Brad has discussed the difference between personal and property guards before, (do flock guards come under property guards, or are flock guards a third category? comes down to motivation I suppose?) I don't mean food/object guarding or family guarding, I am specifically thinking of house/yard/acreage.
Is Territoriality ("sensitivity to home range" work for everybody?) a fading trait of more ancestral-end dogs, or an enhanced trait as a result of selection? An English Mastiff's job is to guard the property, a husky will let everyone in and serve them tea. A husky is emotionally comfortable travelling- because he is not Territorial. He was selected for travel.
Does it follow then that a Mastiff or guardy-end individual would be less emotionally comfortable/stressed travelling to other territories or public "Everyman's Lands" than other dogs? Maybe because he knows his Territory is unguarded, or maybe because he 'gets' Territory and knows you stay in your own space and don't go in others'? That the marks he smells are not his and he doesn't belong there?
If guardiness is linked to fear/anxiety in a dog- only a dog upset enough by intrusion will react with enough oomph to be an effective (selected/employed) guardian- ...crap... I lost my thought. When I remember I will edit my message to add it... what of a confident individual? A confident individual might feel perfectly fine walking all over town, unthreatened by leaving home for a bit, and not too worried about his safety off-home, or his home's safety. But surely a secure confident guardian exists, or maybe we note that everyone's confidence is relative to the circumstances, so maybe anxious/confidence is best discussed as widely confident (his home is under his hat), and specifically confident (I'm a wreck in public but secure and confident at my home?)
It is said that a Bernese Mtn Dog bonds securely with his owner such that it is difficult to rehome them after 18 months old or so, they become so distraught. Is a Territorial dog (of whatever kind) dramatically distraught if he is moved to a new Territory? I am guessing it just takes time for them to make it their own, but who knows if there is a Berner of Territory?
Work on this with me
what do you know?
Comments
You hit on a few issues here, some of them have lots and lots written about them in the protection dog community, often using terms like "defensive drive" and "cull" and "nervy". It gets old reading that stuff because its so old school and detached from the modern schools of thought on dog behavior and even wolf behavior.
I think, in dogs, fear, and behaviors motivated by fear, is a gray area. In some cases its seen as a good thing, and in reality a guard dog cannot guard without it. Then in other cases fear is a reason to cull a dog from a breeding program. I think its odd when you read people writing that a guard dog should be "fearless" and "courageous", and any (guard) dog that shows fear should be culled from a breeding program. This couldn't be further from the truth, IMHO. The truth is, a guard dog needs a certain amount of fear - fear is what keeps them suspicious - and alive. I prefer to call it defensiveness and not fear as fear has a negative vibe. The "courage" a guardian exhibit, and their ability to engage a threat, comes from their "fight drive", and their sensitivity and alertness comes from their defensiveness. A guardian with a higher than average amount of defensiveness and a higher than average amount of fight drive is a guard dog that no one wants to meet face to face.
We know some dogs have been selected for certain traits that make them more/less defensive, more/less apt to fight, more/less prey driven, more/less intelligent, or more/less social. I think you could probably take just about any dog breed and come up with a grouping of the traits I just mentioned that would explain their typical breed description. I would call these self-preservation traits (I excluded sex drive, tho that would be one as well). I also think, if we did that, we would notice their are certain traits that cannot exist without the other, or opposite to another, and that the more you select for a group of these traits the less you will select for the others. It is almost like a dog (breed) is given a bucket for each of the traits half filled with "drive", with no more "drive" to add to the buckets. So, as we humans started manipulating the level of "drive" in each bucket, some of the buckets ended up with little to no "drive" in them.
I bring all this up as a lead in to my comments on this paragraph from Chry's post: Yes, I think a property guardians tends to be more uncomfortable in public and in new situations. I think this is probably due more to being over-stimulated than anything else. A guard dog's value is in his ability to notice environmental change, investigate, and react. His defensiveness and/or prey instinct is what fuels his alertness to these changes - you can kinda think of it as paranoia in a way. So, when you take a guardian into a new environment they are over whelmed with senses and motion - everything is new - some will then switch to flight mode and want to escape, some will switch to fight mode and become very aggressive, others will shut down. Many of the breeds that are said to be benign off-property have been selected to basically shut down while off-property. I've noticed that dogs with a lot of prey drive will become aggressive, frustrated, or hyperactive when taken into a new/public setting. Dogs with less prey and more social aptitude will become social as they are not as motivated by the stimuli of the new environment.
In today's world, where we expect our dogs to go everywhere and have no issue with it, its hard for those highly in-tuned predators, or skillfully selected guardians, to be comfortable - its almost unfair, IMHO.
I personally do not think a dog has the cognitive ability to worry about their territory not being guarded if they are away from it, I think, if anything, what they are worried about is how uncomfortable they are now that they are not in their own element. Those are simply survival skills, if a wolf ventured onto another wolf's territory they are not worried about their territory they are worried about surviving in the other wolf's territory - at any given moment he may be killed for being in the other wolf's territory. (JMHO)
Confidence is another vague term in dogs, IMHO. Its very hard to say a dog is confident or not confident because their confidence is contextual. Think about yourself, are you confident in every situation? Have you ever met anyone who is? Does that mean you are not confident, or that there are no confident people? Ya know what I mean? Same applies to dog, IMO.
Chrys asked... I thin a Bernese Mtn Dog being upset due to not being with his/her owner is an indication their level of social aptitude and not territoriality. I would say they have a low social aptitude level. Think about the most social person you know, they are usually comfortable with anyone while the less-social person you know tends to not be as comfortable with new or strange people. You used a husky as an example, that is a breed that is highly social and so can bond quickly with a new person.
With guardians, what I have noticed is the more defensive the guardian the longer they take to start guarding new territory - but when they do they guard it heavily. So, a guard dog being rehomed (like Luytiy was to us) will take longer to adjust to their new environment and start their role as a guardian. Dogs selected for PP work have a similar adjustment but its geared more toward the owner than the property - at least that is what I have noticed.
One thing to keep in mind with protection dogs is that a patrol dog needs to have more prey while a PPD needs more defensiveness, you also can't be confused with the world of protection sports - that is not true protection work, that's a sport, and so dogs are selected for more prey and less defensiveness so that the game is "fun" for them - hints why breeds like the GSD and Mal are so popular (can have huge prey drives).
I hope I kept on the path you wanted to go on with this.
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...protection sports - that is not true protection work, that's a sport, and so dogs are selected for more prey and less defensiveness so that the game is "fun" for them
Would that mean that a dog paranoid enough to be an employable guardian (or just paranoid and unemployable
I personally do not think a dog has the cognitive ability to worry about their territory not being guarded if they are away from it, I think, if anything, what they are worried about is how uncomfortable they are now that they are not in their own element.
Yeah, you're right, probably not- especially if you take them away in a car (deus ex machina).
Yes, I think a property guardians tends to be more uncomfortable in public and in new situations. I think this is probably due more to being over-stimulated than anything else. A guard dog's value is in his ability to notice environmental change, investigate, and react. His defensiveness and/or prey instinct is what fuels his alertness to these changes - you can kinda think of it as paranoia in a way. So, when you take a guardian into a new environment they are over whelmed with senses and motion - everything is new - some will then switch to flight mode and want to escape, some will switch to fight mode and become very aggressive, others will shut down. Many of the breeds that are said to be benign off-property have been selected to basically shut down while off-property. I've noticed that dogs with a lot of prey drive will become aggressive, frustrated, or hyperactive when taken into a new/public setting. Dogs with less prey and more social aptitude will become social as they are not as motivated by the stimuli of the new environment.
In today's world, where we expect our dogs to go everywhere and have no issue with it, its hard for those highly in-tuned predators, or skillfully selected guardians, to be comfortable - its almost unfair, IMHO.
THIS is exactly the nugget I needed! That makes sense to me. For a dog who notices absolutely everything and everything hasn't been noticed yet- there is too much, its 360°- they become overloaded. And perhaps while out for a walk somewhere, he balks and makes a choice (front brain) that he needs to get out, it's too much, and if this information is ignored, and he is pulled along, he will become touchy (flight denied) and turn to aggression at getting bumped by another dog, or noticing a stranger (fight- and getting hind brain). If the dog must go forward, more time to absorb and less pressure- by way of pausing the walk way back at balk indications- can help, if you catch it early enough before full blown flight. If pressure is not relived by allowing exploration and noticing/believing what the dog is telling you- and you press onward with going everywhere, he will go all-hind brain and panic- as I have experienced- or shut down as you wrote.
Brad, can you give more in depth your definition of fear? Fear is something that can have many different meanings, and I can see why some breeders would cull the fear out of their line. Fear can be thought of that the dog will cower and shut down when they are faced with an opposing force or run away or act as you have described for a guardian outside of it's element (territory). A dog like that can be thought of as fearful, and not make a good guardian, thus culled from the lines.
"One thing to keep in mind with protection dogs is that a patrol dog needs to have more prey while a PPD needs more defensiveness, you also can't be confused with the world of protection sports - that is not true protection work, that's a sport, and so dogs are selected for more prey and less defensiveness so that the game is "fun" for them"
With this said do you feel that a police dog, trained to chase down running suspects, not be very useful should the suspect attack the officer? Police dogs are meant to be confident in new areas and situations, not attacking every strange person they see, but would they exhibit defensiveness should a seemingly friendly person walk up to the officer and stab him? Or would there be something more to police dog training than this?
As far as territory and dogs, Chrystal what you had originally posted sort of reminded me of my sister's dog. Though this is a bit OT, it's kind of a reflection of how a dog's attitude changes on and off property.
Inside the house, inside his territory, Teddy is always trying to control and posses over what he feels are his. He works to keep other dogs and people out of certain rooms, away from people who are sleeping, away from foods, toys, and himself. Inside the house he growls at every movement the other dogs make, you can't touch him without him telling you to get away. He gets the most agitated when an argument between two people occur, especially when there is hitting involved, and will jump in to defend the person he holds as higher value.
But, when we take him beyond the boundaries of the house, like to the dog park or someone else's house, he is friendlier and more social. You can pet him (and even hug him), take his toys/food away without even a reaction. He is more easy going with dogs, and even confuses Tetsu with his attempts at initiating play. Outside the house, Teddy is so confident and friendly that no one would believe what he is like at home.
So, defensiveness (aka fear) is an asset for some dogs and should not be looked at as a negative trait or a flaw for all dog. When looking at defensiveness one should consider the breed and what the dog was originally intended to do before it is decided whether or not their defensiveness is a flaw. In the sport PP world a dog with a lot of defensiveness is a cull, in the non-sporting PP world that same dog would probably not be a cull.
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As for your points/questions, Chry... >> I'm sure there would be a higher level of stress for the PPD since he would be more defensive than a sport, but I do not think that is the reason they wouldn't be used in the sport work - they wouldn't be used because they would bring the fight to the decoy. Meaning, in PP sports, the dog is only allowed to bite the sleeve - they are removed from the sport forever if they bite anything other than the sleeve - a PPD should bite whatever they need to bite to eliminate or contain the threat. In the sport world very little pressure is actually put on the dog, just enough to get a response, in the working world the dog is conditioned to take a lot of pressure.
-- >> I think harder dogs are used, but I dunno that they enjoy it or are even preferred. Blue is very handler-soft, but when he is "turned on" he can take a LOT pressure... So, in his case, I think the training would help him handle the pressure when "turned on" and keep a clear head in order to keep good judgment. I really think that is the main value of PP training - teaching to bite is just a small part. So, my answer to your second question (IMHO) is that I don't think it has to do with them learning it is a game, I think it has to do with them being conditioned to the pressure - like a Special Forces soldier is conditioned to extremes or a beat cop is conditioned to the "heat".
-- >> Yea, I thought that was what you were getting at. The other info I provided was just to back up my point that some dog breeds have been selected to have higher fight and defensive traits - and that is not a flaw in those breeds, it is a plus, and is what makes them special.
We do a lot of training with our dogs, and when one of our guardians is acting defensive in class trainers love to point at them and say something like "see, that's fear", or "he's just scared", and while I do not disagree with it, the negative undertone annoys me. I always say, "well he is a guardian, he should have some defensiveness" and then I get a look from the trainers like "well, I dunno about that".
The issues is that, for those trainers, who work with rescue dogs and pets 99.9% of the time, a fearful response from a dog is a red flag - something that needs to be fixed or conditioned out of them. But with a working guardian, that is not always the case, certain things should be chosen to be conditioned others, not so much.
My frustration stems from the idea some people have that all dogs are born with the same pallet of pre-defined criteria and their environment shapes their personality 100%, and if a dog fails to be shaped into what the dog "ideal" is then that dog is deemed as "unbalanced". This thought process ignores genetic traits that are passed to the pup from 1000+ years of selective breeding - it ignores breed - which, IMHO, is like looking at the world of dogs with blinders on. This type of mentality is what leads to dogs with no working-drive and no confidence to think on their own, it kills the independent working breeds... IMHO, this mindset creates dumbed-down dogs.
Look at the show wring for an example, a GSD in the show wring would be removed if it growled at the judge who is in his face - ask any police K9 unit what would happen if a stranger got in their dogs face... I'd bet it would be more than a growl - and that is not a fault for that dog - that is how that dog should be (and that response is a defensive response - which is fear manifested).
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As for your points/questions, Beth... Ok, I forgot I have to watch what I write on the forum. I can see the digging and I can see where it will lead. So let me just state for the record:
I am not saying I would select for fearful Nihonken. I am saying that in some breeds, NOT NK, some level of defensiveness is needed for the breed to properly do its job. If I was breeding NK and a pup showed a higher-than-average amount of defensiveness I would cull it from the breeding program. Please don't spin my words into "Brad breeds for fear in his NK" - that is not what I am writing - I am speaking specifically to certain breeds, and those breeds are not any of the NK breed.
As for what you wrote, Beth. I disagree, fear cannot mean anything other than fear. Fear is fear. When fear is added to other traits it will manifest in different behaviors, and those behaviors may or may not be wanted in a breeding program.
To use your example of a dog that "will cower and shut down when they are faced with an opposing force", depending on the level of pressure (force) and the situation, in a guardian breed I would say that dog didn't have enough fight drive, and in a non-guardian breed I would say that dog didn't have enough social drive and had too much defensiveness (and would be culled). With more fight they would have become aggressive, with more social-ness and less defensiveness they would have looked to their owner or family for appeasement and not have been over-stimulated.
-- I think maybe I should make sure I am being clear. A police dog and/or PPD needs prey drive and d defensiveness, they need both. A sporting dog needs more prey and less defensiveness. A patrol dog, as you described above, would need more prey drive than a guardian would, or even a PPD, but all theses dogs need both traits its just a matter of how much of each they need to get the job done efficiently.
A police dog need prey to chase a criminal, they need defensiveness to keep themselves from being killed when the criminal moves to attack them, and they need fight to take the pressure and not back down. Has nothing to do with "confidence" <- confidence is a term used to describe a state of mind at/in a particular situation, its contextual. For example, when Luytiy & Masha are guarding their yard, they are very confident - but they are acting defensively, which means they are acting on fear.
Yes, I think the value of the officer (to the dog) added to the defensiveness of the dog would push the dog to "protect" their owner/cop. Also, their defensiveness would make them wary of strangers (which would mean they would be more apt to take out a stranger with a knife than a non defensive dog). Same applies to prey - a dog with a lot of prey drive will chase a child that runs by.
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In general, I dislike labeling behaviors patterns as "drives". It's sort of in vogue, but things start to break down when you really think about it. It is better to simply describe what the dog does. In fact, a dog that is highly motivated to chase furry, rapidly-retreating animals may not be inclined to chase children or frisbees at all. Have a read of this: http://animalbehaviorassociates.com/pdf/RMN_drive_troubles.pdf
But, back to CONTEXT. The Laika is a territorial animal. They are excellent watch dogs (vigilent, watchful, barky) but are poor guardians in the sense that they would allow a stranger in the home and being opportunistic, probably take off like a flash to go look for squirrels if the stranger left the door open! (Stranger might think twice, with all the ruckus they make...but the person is unlikely to be physically harmed. They do put on a good show!) They are also known to be intolerant of strange dogs. The closer they are to our home, the more intolerant they are. There is a sort of "radius" that is considered home territory. Their response also has some variation based on each other's reaction. They are much different one-on-one than they are in a gang - not very diplomatic in the latter. That said, we can have dog guests with proper introductions and Tangent was easy to incorporate.
They are also highly observant, dislike surprises, and they categorize things loosely into "Things That Belong" and "Things That Don't Belong". I believe this is a result of observed patterns that they have habituated to. For example: Of the thousands of times that we exit the house and go to the end of the sidewalk and turn left, there is noone standing there. ONE time, there was a person in a hoody smoking a cigarette standing around that corner in the dark, and since that was a surprise, they all three fired off at him. They tend to be more on-edge at night. If we were in a neighborhood that was unfamiliar, I doubt they would have even cared about the person, but that's because they don't have enough information about that particular neighborhood to know if it is a "Thing That Belongs" vs. "Thing That Doesn't Belong".
They did a similar thing when I opened the front door one day and there was a procession of people returning from the neighbor's baby shower. Anywhere else and I doubt it would have raised an eyebrow, but because it was a sudden visual, directly outside our home territory, and fell square into the category of "Thing That Doesn't Belong", these poor folks were treated to a total rant! "INVADERS! With BALLOONS! And GIFTS!" Sound the alarm!
"Things That Belong" vs. "Things That Don't Belong" is interesting to me based on my observations of horses. Horses, being prey animals with eyes on the sides of their heads, take this one step further and even lateralize. Here is a simple example: If the barn water hose is always coiled up on the right hand side of the stall when the horse exits, it is no big deal. However, a horse (particularly a youngster) may spook if one day the barn water hose is coiled up on the LEFT hand side of the stall upon exit. They don't recognize it as their friendly neighborhood hose at all. To them, it is something there that wasn't there yesterday, that might kill them today.
The dogs also MODULATE quite a bit. We have been rushed by off-leash small dogs a few times. In the instances where I have enough time to wrap everyone's brain around the concept that it is a dog, and that it is not to be bothered, and that if they sit and wait, someone will come fetch the pest, the outcome is good. It is the same with dogs that they may catch sight of in the distance...they will do a lot of assessing in the approach.
If the small furry dog appears suddenly, then the over-riding principle becomes grab it and think about it later. This landed an unfortunate ballistic off-leash Malti-Poo in the ER. We were in the street and this dog came out guns blazing from between some parked cars. I didn't see her coming and in a flash she was underneath us going yip-yap-snap! Literally a matter of seconds and Tuli grabbed her and pinned her. The small dog started squalling which made her even MORE interesting to the Trio. Small creature is fortunate that I have the control I do, since Tuli responded to my "OUT!" command, and the boys were told to back off. She had a puncture and laceration on her left side (superficial) and a few broken ribs but the outcome could have been MUCH worse. I also paid for the vet bill even though my leashed dogs were not technically at fault. (It wasn't a good day...sigh...but am I surprised that it happened? No.)
Interestingly, Tuli (and Triepak) are most likely to get worked up about a single dog while on a walk. In class or at a dog show, or some venue where there are a ton of dogs, she is fine. She even likes to play with dogs ringside. I have a few theories about this contextual reaction. The first is that she has never been attacked or rushed by an off-leash dog in class or at a dog show. So, in her mind, those other dogs simply aren't a hazard when she is in that situation as opposed to being out for a walk and being accosted by an off-leash dog. The second is a simple issue of numbers. At a venue with a huge number of dogs, she is unable to focus on just one and she probably to some degree, knows that she can't take them all on!
The other interesting thing that I've observed is the 'acquisition of property". I like to say that RELs and COs are real-estate mavens. Give them a day in a new place, or heck a few hours...and it is theirs! I stayed the night on a small boat once with living quarters. At first, I had to physically lift Tuli over the gap between the pier and the boat deck. She spent a great deal of time snooping around the boat interior and was restless before curling up to go to sleep. By 6 AM, she was perched up peering out of the porthole and grumping at anyone who walked down the pier. She lept deftly over the gap from the deck. When I attend dog shows, I rarely crate the dogs in the same location for both days. That way their new-found territory "bubble" is disrupted.
Triepak displays the most defensive reactions towards strange people, but if he weren't attached to me with a leash, he would probably just practice avoidance. I base this on the observation that if we have houseguests that make him uncomfortable, he just goes upstairs and removes himself from the scenario. It's a breed tendency and I don't necessarily mind his reactivity because I hike by myself quite often. Is he fearful? Probably. What I would mind is if he couldn't recover. I won't force him to be touched by a stranger, but he can sit quietly at my side when I ask so I can have a conversation with someone.
First off, I totally agree with you in regards to using the term "drive". I am not a fan of the use of the term either, in this case tho, I used the phrase "fight drive" because it was easier to write than to list all all the qualities associated with a dog that is prone to fight faster than flee. We had a long discussion on the use of the term "drive" in this thread.
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Sarah wrote: Yea, this is spot-on IMHO. Dogs seem to form "mental models" of their environment - a lot like us - but dogs seem way better as noticing inconsistencies. Like those tests where you have to pick out the strange anomaly in a photo, the human brain often cannot see a small anomaly in a picture filled with objects tied strongly to their "mental model" (like we don't see every bend in metal, nut or bolt, of the front of a car when we look at a picture of one)... While dogs seem to pick up on the little anomalies right oft the back - especially the more defensive dogs - like the CO...
Which bring up an interesting thought, and ties into what you wrote here: When selecting for a good guardian dog breed, I wonder if humans have inadvertently selected for traits more common in prey animals than predators, and therefore a good guard dog is more similar to a prey animal than to a predator?
With Ahi, who is an amazing alarm dog (and predator), her instincts and watchfulness seem way more in-tuned that the CO, who are amazing guard dogs. They make a great pairing, Ahi will see an animal approaching the property long before the CO will. She will sound the alarm, and then the CO go and investigate... Like they're the "muscle" or something. But Ahi is no where near as sensitive to environmental change, the CO will notice the smallest out of place item - the most obscure thing - while Ahi acts as if its "normal".
When it all comes together, you have a dog that is highly alert to animals (or anything that moves), very independent and less social, and has an alarming bark - added to some larger dogs that are very social ("flock" oriented), and very defensive, and very environmentally aware. Its like the perfect guardian package - the failure point would be if we needed the crew to guard prey animals as Ahi would probably eat one.
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Ok, question Sarah, you wrote: So, do you think their "fearfulness" is a breed quality that helps them perform their selected-for role (hunting anything you ask them to)?
If you do think it helps them perform their role, do you think its correct to label it "fear"?
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"I think a property guardians tends to be more uncomfortable in public and in new situations. I think this is probably due more to being over-stimulated than anything else. A guard dog's value is in his ability to notice environmental change, investigate, and react. His defensiveness and/or prey instinct is what fuels his alertness to these changes - you can kinda think of it as paranoia in a way. So, when you take a guardian into a new environment they are over whelmed with senses and motion - everything is new - some will then switch to flight mode and want to escape, some will switch to fight mode and become very aggressive, others will shut down. Many of the breeds that are said to be benign off-property have been selected to basically shut down while off-property. I've noticed that dogs with a lot of prey drive will become aggressive, frustrated, or hyperactive when taken into a new/public setting. Dogs with less prey and more social aptitude will become social as they are not as motivated by the stimuli of the new environment.
In today's world, where we expect our dogs to go everywhere and have no issue with it, its hard for those highly in-tuned predators, or skillfully selected guardians, to be comfortable - its almost unfair, IMHO.
THIS is exactly the nugget I needed! That makes sense to me. For a dog who notices absolutely everything and everything hasn't been noticed yet- there is too much, its 360°- they become overloaded. And perhaps while out for a walk somewhere, he balks and makes a choice (front brain) that he needs to get out, it's too much, and if this information is ignored, and he is pulled along, he will become touchy (flight denied) and turn to aggression at getting bumped by another dog, or noticing a stranger (fight- and getting hind brain). If the dog must go forward, more time to absorb and less pressure- by way of pausing the walk way back at balk indications- can help, if you catch it early enough before full blown flight. If pressure is not relived by allowing exploration and noticing/believing what the dog is telling you- and you press onward with going everywhere, he will go all-hind brain and panic- as I have experienced- or shut down as you wrote.
This is something I've noticed with my Shibas, particularly my female. Granted, she has other issues (thyroid, maybe more) that cause her to act in the way she does, but I do believe some of her behavior is simply true of the so-called primitive breeds. She is by far the better hunter of my two Shibas--very prey driven. yet she is also very aware of what is her territory, and she is fierce in guarding in it, much more so than my male Shiba or my GSD. She's taken on coyotes, unfortunately, given her size. Yet if I take her someplace else, I can see her confidence drop the more unfamiliar the place is. The car is familiar--so it's ok. A good friend's house is familiar enough that she'll alarm bark if she something encroaching on the territory, but she's also not entirely comfortable there. If I take her to a place she doesn't know at all, she shuts down.
I know that if I never took her anywhere, she'd be ok. Fearful of strangers, yes, but mostly confident. Mostly I don't take her places, and maybe that's the problem, maybe I'm not socializing her enough to be a good 21st century dog. Or maybe it's the opposite--maybe her "boundaries" (not the right word but as close as I can come right now) and accept that this is a dog that is most comfortable and most "herself" in her defined territory.
"The other interesting thing that I've observed is the 'acquisition of property". I like to say that RELs and COs are real-estate mavens. Give them a day in a new place, or heck a few hours...and it is theirs! "
This describes my male Shiba. He is certainly MUCH more difficult on home ground--which of course is filled with many valued resources. He is generally well mannered if we are walking as long as other dogs leave him alone. But if we stop, and sit down, say at a coffee house, he immediately sees the area around the table as his, and guards it from other dogs. It seems likely that he is guarding me as a resource rather than the area, but I've noticed he does stake out a particular amount of space....say 6-8 feet in diameter. A dog can go by outside that space and he notices, but will likely ignore it, but inside that space and he is very reactive. Everything becomes his, even if there are other resident dogs, say in B&B's we've stayed at. He seems to recognize the whole place belongs to the resident dog, but the room we are staying in is his...
Is this more of the kind of defense of territory I'm seeing in Bel? Or is this resource guarding? Or perhaps it could simply be has a smaller definition of territory? I've also seen him guard a certain random amount of space in the house from the other dogs....he lays down in the living room and seems to stake out a circle of space he will not let the other dogs into.
I'm not sure how to fit this into the categories of territoriality we're talking about, though, and I'm not even sure my Shibas behavior is typical. But it is interesting and makes me think of their behavior in different ways.
"My frustration stems from the idea some people have that all dogs are born with the same pallet of pre-defined criteria and their environment shapes their personality 100%, and if a dog fails to be shaped into what the dog "ideal" is then that dog is deemed as "unbalanced". This thought process ignores genetic traits that are passed to the pup from 1000+ years of selective breeding - it ignores breed - which, IMHO, is like looking at the world of dogs with blinders on."
This is something I've struggled with when looking for trainers and just when talking to people who don't have Nihon-ken. And I've been thinking about it a lot, too, since reading 'Dog Man." I'm not saying dogs should always be true to their "nature" or drives (both words that seem problematic in definition), but I've heard too many people who don't like or aren't familiar with these breeds see things as undesirable that I see as part of the breed. The high prey drive, for example. Yes, this means that most Shibas can never be off leash, but I see that as simply a given with them--because when they hunt, they are doing what they are bred to do. It may not be convenient for us in modern urban or suburban life, but for me part of the appeal of a dog like the Shiba is that they still have the feel of a wild dog in some ways--a wild dog which has chosen to live with me. (of course I know the companionability has been bred into this dog for generations, but I often think that the Shiba gives the illusion of wildness in a domesticated animal, and that feeling of artlessness/wildness in something that has actually been managed and controlled for generations is particularly Japanese). And for me, living where I live, the hunting is quite useful as they keep away the wood rats and rabbits and other small creatures that wreak havoc in the garden and garage...
Ok, I think I wandered a bit away from the original topic there, but these are quite interesting questions/issues....
story of Sage's life. After almost 3 years of work, I have completely committed to the truth that the latter is true for him and that it is OKAY for a dog to live in their comfort zone. dog life isn't all Merle's Door and Bark Magazine at all. So much pressure to do things 'right', but the RIGHT thing is to listen to the dog. Sage lights up and is his happiest self in the yard, playing. He is never like that on a walk. If i keep him home, in his "briar patch" he is not some miserable wretch who never gets attention, fun or dog play, kicking around an empty water dish and chewing on his feet. He is playing with Reilly, digging in the dig pit, keeping watch on his hay pile, playing games with me, catching snowballs with my daughter, splashing in the kiddie pool, dozing in the sun, barking at the fisher cat. He is not missing out on anything he'd actually want, only discomfort and fear. He is happy, he feels safe and I can even praise him for alerting me to things- the job he wants is to be look out man. His guarding the yard, enjoying the yard is not a shameful thing when you turn it around and see him as maybe an atypical Pet, but dogs have always been many different things and there's more than one way to be a great dog. There needs to be a new model (or several) for what a great dog and a great dog owner can be.
Like you, I felt much guilt that I couldn't get him to socialize right. He's just not like that, and having tried everything, I am sure of it now. and the sooner we stop struggling against (breed/puppyhood/individual) natures and see the dog we have, the sooner we can cut away the stuff he;s been asking us to stop and focus on the times that they shine. More shiney is what we all want.
I am grateful to Brad and Jessica especially for helping me see how dogs I dont normally see around me are also different, like mine, and that's special and interesting and good about them. I have a friend with a Staffy named Mocha who they took to a trainer to work on - whatever- and they felt ashamed that she was assessing and reacting. "I'm sorry, I'm sorry" they told the trainer, who replied "It;s fine! She's a good, smart dog- you didn't pick her because you wanted some airhead golden retriever!"
disclaimer- I admit that I enjoy other people's golden retrievers in the way that people like nieces and nephews. They are fun, and affectionate and gregarious, but it's nice to know they'll go home with someone else.
I tend to think yes. The hunting spitz is developed as an independent worker, so they must have some degree of confidence to leave the handler and make their own decisions. They will readily hunt in places that are familiar to them, as well as new locations. A healthy amount of skepticism (fear) will keep them alive. There is a tipping point - Basically, a dog that is too careful won't consider bothering a cantankerous boar, or a moody moose. If a dog is too brave, they will get hurt - badly.
This is why training opportunities must be managed carefully in my opinion. You want to build the dog's confidence on the game and teach the dogs to work together without risking too much injury, but you MUST have something that will teach them to back off. It is no good to permit them to run in and grab young lightweight pigs. So those of you considering Shishiinu's offer need to keep this in mind. Young dogs have a tendency to come on too hard!
When Mussa (Laika Trio's Mom) was at a training session in Estonia one time, the boar had been used too long for working dogs. He was very smart about dogs and rank. It was also very hot weather. Mussa didn't stick with it for long. In my opinion, she actually used good judgement and quit this particular hog.
Here is a helpful excerpt from Eirik Krogstad's site http://krogstad.roros.net/hunting.html
Many hunters that hunt smaller game (birds and squirrel) like having predator-aggressive dogs because the number of big predators is increasing in hunting areas. So, the chance of running into a bear while squirrel hunting could be high depending on geography. If a dog starts barking at a bear and tests it's patience for too long, the bear will attack the dog in order to chase it away. If this doesn't work, the bear will pursue the dog as it flees for the only safe place it knows...the owner. This creates a very dangerous situation quickly.
If you desire to hunt bear and you do not have a dog that is willing and able to challenge and stop the bear, the hunt will be pointless. Young male bears usually take off and run from the dog as soon as they establish contact. In this instance, a 2 or 3 dog team is necessary for stopping the bear since very few dogs are able to stop it alone. Some dogs are aggressive enough, but they are few.
A female bear with cubs will send her cubs up in a tree and take off with the dog or dogs in pursuit. She will quickly sort out the dog that is most insecure and go for that dog ...to eliminate the number of opponents. This can scare the dog so much that it will never go after bear again.
A big, old, and experienced male bear will usually ignore the dogs to a certain point, but if the dogs are aggressive enough they can, and will, get the bear angry and the dogs may choose to stand at a safe distance from the bear - something that can give you, the hunter, the wrong impression of where the bear is.
It's no good to continually have dogs that are layed up recouperating from hunting injuries, particularly if you need to eat every week. It is the HUNTER's responsibility to dispatch the game...it is the DOG's responsibility to locate and keep the game at bay. Nothing more. Folks who like to brag about their "really hard dogs" must like paying vet bills. (Either that, or they don't REALLY hunt!)
Brad's Second Question: If you do think it helps them perform their role, do you think its correct to label it "fear"?
Well, I guess you can call it whatever you like! Hahaha! Apparently, the term "fear" seems to have a negative connotation, but it if is helps them perform their original role, I can't really quibble. These dogs are often described as "reserved" or "aloof". Well, what does that really mean? Skittish? Skeptical? Uninterested? Fearful? Indifferent? Unfriendly? Uncomfortable? Let's bust out the thesarus!
There is certainly a spectrum. Guska is the most observant of environmental changes. He will notice things like a porch lantern that blew over into the yard after a storm. Tuli is like Ahi. Those two are outside "monitoring" the deck. Where is Triepak? Napping on the floor next to my desk. If they sound the alarm, he will be out there in a flash. They are more tolerant of strange people, while he tends to be more aloof. Of the three, Guska is the most tolerant of strange dogs.
Triepak is not paralyzed by fear. He has a CGC. He has been shown in several countries (US, Finland, Germany, Estonia, Hungary, Russia, Holland) and obviously permits judges to touch him. It's not his favorite thing, but he tolerates it and accepts it in that context (there we go with context again!). He is easy to handle in the veterinary clinic and can be dropped off at a grooming facility for a stranger to bathe, blow out, and brush. You can walk him around a busy downtown area and eat at outdoor restaurants and he won't freak out. There are just times that he will express his discomfort at someone approaching us rapidly or reaching towards us. I think I've told the board about his reaction to a new dog walker. Let the guy in the house, but refused to go anywhere with him. For three days. Didn't necessarily aggress toward him but sat in the corner as if to say "Don't even think about it, dude. I will hold my urine for 13 hours thank you very much!" Now he and Alex are on great terms.
Obviously I don't know what Triepak "feels". I don't tend to get too spun up about any of it when their genetic code explodes all over the place. I'd say that I can only claim to have very typical Laiki! They "read the book"! See below...
Vladimir Beregovoy over at http://www.laikabreeds.multiservers.com/ describes the REL's attitude towards humans and says: The Russo-European Laika is very affectionate and strongly attached to the master and his family. Majority of these dogs avoids being petted by strange people, but some may be more or less friendly. Dogs bark at strangers and some show aggressiveness making intimidating dashes with raised hairs on the back, but usually do not bite.
Here is what he says about their attitude to other dogs: The Russo-European Laika is a territorial dog and displays aggressiveness towards unfamiliar dogs intruding their place. Dogs of the same household establish a kind of pecking order and well come along with each other. When obtained as adults, even females may fight each other in the beginning and, in some cases, will remain enemies for lifetime. Despite the Russo-European Laika becomes easily engaged in a fight with another dog, it is not suitable for pit fighting. They fight only when they need to solve their problem and the fight often stops as soon as one of the dogs submits or retreats. A dog very aggressive near its home may refuse to come closer to another dog, if taken in an unfamiliar environment in a new place.
And finally: Russo-European Laika is primarily a hunting dog. He is a very good pet and a family dog and he is exceptionally tolerant with children. He is a great watchdog without dangerous viciousness to unfamiliar people. The Russo-European Laika will be alerted by appearance of other dogs or animals. The Russo-European Laika will make and excellent companion dog for hiking trips. One, who takes them to hike, should know that this is a very territorial dog that may fight other dogs approaching your tent. Besides, this dog will never miss a chance to tree a squirrel or other animal and lag behind barking for a long time.