Growth pains for young Shikoku
Hello you all,
Shousei is 6,5 months now and has been growing pretty fast. He looks really nice, is doing very well. However, the last few days he seems to be very stiff, walks unnaturally, his back is arched and sometimes he walks around like he is in serious pain. However, he doesn't show any pain, doesn't make any sounds like he is in pain. He can still run, jump and play but at home he's laying in his bench and doesn't look very comfortable.
I think we have him too much high protein food. Somehow he seems to like the senior food of Reno and Rico better than his puppy stuff. So to avoid he wasn't getting enough protein, we gave him extra tuna, meat, chicken liver and more protein rich stuff. We probably overdid this. So we will limit his food intake now to stop this, hopefully with quick results. It really doesn't look very nice; it hurts to see him so uncomfortable.
He might also have had too much linolic acid, the oil that was in the tuna cans. This promotes inflammation, actually counteracts the benefit of the tuna. It seems the bone membrane is inflamed now, due to problems with arteries en veins going in and out, but without enough space. I will add high amounts of fish oil in his diet to counteract this. I hope it will not take to much time to make him comfortable again.
Anyone has experienced anything like this?
Shousei is 6,5 months now and has been growing pretty fast. He looks really nice, is doing very well. However, the last few days he seems to be very stiff, walks unnaturally, his back is arched and sometimes he walks around like he is in serious pain. However, he doesn't show any pain, doesn't make any sounds like he is in pain. He can still run, jump and play but at home he's laying in his bench and doesn't look very comfortable.
I think we have him too much high protein food. Somehow he seems to like the senior food of Reno and Rico better than his puppy stuff. So to avoid he wasn't getting enough protein, we gave him extra tuna, meat, chicken liver and more protein rich stuff. We probably overdid this. So we will limit his food intake now to stop this, hopefully with quick results. It really doesn't look very nice; it hurts to see him so uncomfortable.
He might also have had too much linolic acid, the oil that was in the tuna cans. This promotes inflammation, actually counteracts the benefit of the tuna. It seems the bone membrane is inflamed now, due to problems with arteries en veins going in and out, but without enough space. I will add high amounts of fish oil in his diet to counteract this. I hope it will not take to much time to make him comfortable again.
Anyone has experienced anything like this?
Comments
Here's my 0.02. First thing: akita and I think all NK won't show any sign of pain, won't whine or cry unless it's REALLY bad. They are the 'suffer in silence' type and you need to know your dog very well to notice smth is wrong.
From my research, it's a bad idea to give high protein food for a puppy because it doesn't support the natural rhythm of growth and contrary to the general belief, puppies only need high quality protein foods, not high level of proteins. I've heard more and more breeders weaning a puppy on adult dog formulas/raw food because this will allow for a normal growth. In general, a higher level of protein leads to a rapid increase of bones but does nothing for joints, cartilages and the sort. If you use an adult formula this will allow for the bones to grow normally and their structure to develop as nature intended.
You should be very careful about supplementing too much fish oil. Too much omega 3 retards natural growth and inhibits appetite
I used a LOT of joint supplements but now I know I overdid it. From what I've tried so far, I would recommend in joint-related situations only 2 things:
ESTER (Esterfield) C because it favors growth and repair of body tissues. In comparison to regular vitamin C, the ester c is a pH neutral form of vit C with bioflavonoids. I think there should be a pediatric liquid for puppies. You can use it without worries, because if there is too much vitamin C it is expelled from the body, it has no adverse effects. Bioflavonoids increase intracellular levels of vit C and have some anti-allergy and anti-inflammatory benefits.
One of the best supplements for joints (and nothing else is required for healthy puppies) is perna (green lipped mussels) - it's a GREAT pain relief and very potent anti-inflammatory. It's usually used in treating arthritis.
I didn't understand this bit here 'It seems the bone membrane is inflamed now, due to problems with arteries en veins going in and out, but without enough space.'
thx for your response.
I do have Ester C so I may add some to it.
"I didn't understand this bit here 'It seems the bone membrane is inflamed now, due to problems with arteries en veins going in and out, but without enough space."
Around the bone there is a membrane where the muscles are attached with the ligaments. This is very rich in nerve endings. Now, since the arteries go into the bone for collagen and mineral supplies to build bone, the veins have to go out. But if the bone grows to fast, the openings might become to narrow. At that point the veins might try to find an other way and will lift the membrane which causes the pain. This inflammation will be worse if the omega 3-6 ratio is wrong, like way to much omega 6. That is quite well possible since I gave the tuna who was in this type of oil. The greenlipped mussel will be very good, I have plenty, actually for Reno's joints who is close to 12 years now. so that might be a great option.
I hope it will get under control very soon, so far it seems to develop even worse. But it is going on only for a few days now, so I will try my very best to slow it down asap. I prefer to not use any NSAID's but maybe, if it continues to be so bad, I may have to give them anyway.
Thx for the advise.
I usually don't give canned fish, and when I do I choose the most natural one - a weird translation from my language is 'tuna in its own juices'. Most of the time I rely on fresh or frozen ocean fish, such as mackerel and the sort. Even frozen, I think it's better than the processed type you find in cans.
I want to stress that all my research is done for the sake of my JA, so you should discuss with you vet and investigate more the benefits of using adult dog food for your puppy. I myself want to switch to raw as soon as I gather enough info but for now I stick to half raw/cooked, half kibble. However, I don't use or agree with no-grain (usually high-protein such as Orijen or Acana) foods to be the best for JA (and maybe NK) and I would supplement both Orijen and Acana with rice. I think that's the only other thing these brands really need. But that's another topic altogether.
But all together, he should eat less. In nature there are almost never unlimited resources. The huskies never overeat, just what they need, not one bite extra unless it is very tasty. Shousei might have enjoyed eating a bit to much since we gave him to plenty of healthy foods. When he came he was eating all he could find. Probably since he came from a kennel where there was always a struggle to find enough food because of the competition. I will keep you posted on the results, I really hope it is not going to last for many months.
I wish I had some advise for you, but I don't. I really feel for both you & Shousei. I wish you guys all the best I really hope you can turn this around quickly! :(
Please keep us posted!! This is very important to all of us to understand & learn from:(
Dave
You haven't mentioned a vet. Is this Diagnosis yours? If this were one of my pups I would be rushing them to my vet A.S.A.P.! Please take Shousei to the vet!!
You raised some interesting points and some are unknown to me. All I knew is that an excess of vitamin D gives bone pain but I did not investigate further, I was more absorbed with its role in the proper metabolism and absorption of calcium and phosphorus. I didn't think that the pain is related to the role Vitamin D played in growing bone faster, I thought it just made it stronger. But I can see your point now. From what I knew before, vitamin D maintains blood levels of calcium by allowing the absorption of calcium from food while at the same time reducing urinary calcium loss. That meanth that calcium in the bones stayed where it was. However, if too much vitamin D was given the surplus of calcium would be stored in places where you didn't want it or need it - many vets told me that's one of the main causes that calcium excrescences (I don't know if that's the right word for this) appear along the spine and leave the dog paralyzed.
So calcium and phosphorus should me the main offenders, not vitamin D. If supplemented, it should be done only through food like fat fish. If calcium and phosphorus are supplemented, to my mind it should be done also only through natural sources and in moderation. When both are supplemented, it's really bad for the dog. During a study conducted at Colorado State University dogs were fed a diet rich in calcium while housed outdoor and exposed to sunlight (thus increasing Ca and Ph absorbtion). Tests showed that this led to remarkable changes of thyroid gland cells, reducing its function and promoting skeletal structural damage.
I know that if you supplement a specific Vitamin you should know the imbalances this would create. For example, if you supplement vitamin D you have to supplement vitamin A also. But these vitamins are stored in the liver, so too much of either can be toxic.
PS: in Japan the dog's diet is rich with Vitamin D because the main meat source is the fish.
PS2: I have a question, you said vitamin D plays a role in growing cells, more specifically bones. Is that a direct consequence of vitamin D or is it the case of vitamin D coupled with a high level of protein (known for its building role within the organism)?
I completely understand & agree with you as far as medications are concerned. I 'm sure you are doing everything possible to work through this. Is there a possibility this is a physical injury. An exam or x-ray might be needed to rule this out! Just a thought.
Sukoshi has hip dysplasia. When she "exercises" too much at the dog park, she is sometimes stiff and slow with her movements the next day.
Irena, Vitamin A and D use the same nuclear pore to be absorbed into the nucleus. So too much vitamin A might block the nuclear pore and so actually block vitamin D function. I have been feeding him some chicken livers, like once a week maybe one pound. In between those moments even some other liver stuff. This might hold way to much vitamin A. So you made an excellent point there. Instead of having to much D, it might actually be too low. I will ask my vet if there are reference values available for dogs and have him tested. Too much will be stored in his liver. Same for D but it very rarely happens. The good thing with vitamin D is that it has several stadia. Normally it is produced in the dog’s hair, under influence from UVB. Than dogs groom their coat and so absorb the pre-vitamin D with their tongue. This moves into the liver and will become the Pre-form, so called 25OH-vitamin D3. Still nothing is going on. Now, if calcium levels get to low the kidneys will activate the pre-form of 25-OH D3 into 1,25 OH D3, the one that is more water soluble and so more active. This regulates the kidney to excrete less minerals and the gut to absorb more. If there isn't enough calcium available in the gut, so the serum levels remain low, the parathyroid will excrete PTH to slow bone growth (slowing down bone building osteoblasts) and stimulate osteoclasts to release calcium from the bone into the blood stream. In that way homeostasis is achieved. However, if we stay low in calcium this process happens over and over again, which may result in osteoporoses.
However, there are still many, many more functions vitamin D3 is involved in. One important one is the regulation of cell proliferation. In cases of cancer there is almost always a shortage in D3 to stop unwanted cell proliferation. So tumors grow without control. But it is important too for inflammation. If acute inflammation happens it has to be stopped within normally 36 hours. With a shortage of D3 this will take much longer and so may lead to chronic inflammation. It will become way to technical to go over all of this, but I hope this gives a bit of an overview.
D3 is important for Ca absorption, however to build bone, we need growth factors, (IGF-1) but also vitamin K2. Since vitamin A blocks the vitamin D3 receptor and so blocks DNA transcription, this may be the cause of all: to much liver! Irena, I hope so much you are right. But I also know that if this is the case, it will take a while before the levels are down enough to allow D3 into the nucleus again. Keep you posted, many thanks.
I also want to disagree vehemently with the following statements:
"That's a very good idea, talking to the the breeder. I always say it's better to trust the breeder than the vet."
Breeders are breeders and vets are vets. They are trained in two very different things and to trust the medical advice of a breeder over a trained vet is NOT a good idea. As much as I like and trust Joey's breeder, she suggested feeding Lucy raw for her IBD condition---something that could kill her in a matter of days due to the immunosuppressive drugs she's on. Breeders are not qualified to dispense veterinary advice.
"We will, but they have to understand Shikoku before they start to throw in all kinds of medication."
Just because a vet isn't familiar with your particular breed, doesn't mean they aren't the right person to talk to about an ailment your dog has. While they may not be up to speed on the common issues your breed may have, the presentation of symptoms and the differential diagnoses are the same for all dogs regardless of breed. So please consider taking your dog to a vet ASAP if they appear to be in discomfort.
That's why it's very difficult to get the right diet for these guys, it's so frustrating. All we want to do is give them everything they need and it's so easy to screw it up :-(
There may be something you can try to relieve his pain, I haven't used it much because I don't know a lot about it but maybe someone else on the forum knows how it's done, it's called the Ttouch or the Tellington Touch. It may not do anything at all, I'm no expert but I know my JA enter a complete state of relaxation when I use it. And since I don't know the right 'spots' I use it all over the body. In short, it's a circular continuous movement made with your fingers (the three in the middle, I don't know what they're called) - try holding a tennis ball in your right hand, remove the thumb and the pinkie, let go of the ball and with your hand in this position start making small circular movements. It should help him and it's a good starting point until someone more knowledgeable tells you with precision which points to massage in this way.
I just wanted to add something to my statement, it's quite alright you disagree, I think it depends on one's history with vets and NK in general. I have some personal, tragic experiences that taught me I should listen to the breeder more than the vet. I didn't and that costed me a life. I won't ever do it again but I completely understand if you think my statement is just 'too much'. Perhaps you have better vets over there. I hope you do. But when it comes to a specific breed no one knows more about its problems than the breeder and HIS vet.
Just my personal opinion, I want to stress again, that I wish not to inflict on innocent forumers. LOL But I hope all opinions will be considered to be sort of starting point for further personal research. That's they beauty of the forum, it brings together different views and it's up to you to form your own.
In response to your question , I have never seen Koshi do any "Horse Kicks" or any strange movements.
Hang in ther my friend! But please get him to a vet A.S.A.P. Everyone one this forum supports you & wants to offer their advise but none of us are in a position to diagnose this!
I'd like to point out though, there's a difference between trusting your breeder's vet for medical advice and trusting your breeder for medical advice. I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. If your breeder has a vet they've developed a relationship with and your vet doesn't have experience with the quirks of your particular breed, then by all means listen to your breeder's vet. But I still maintain that a breeder is not qualified to give medical advice. That would be like your friend diagnosing what is wrong with your human baby because they have had babies before. In the United States that's illegal (practicing medicine without a license).
I'm so sorry for Shousei, though, I didn't realise his situation was dire. I can't think of anything else that might do him good now... :-(
I hope he doesn't have LP! Wow, what a shame it would be if that was the case! I mean he is such a high quality dog. That would be a real blow to the breed. I would be sure to keep Egmato in the loop on it too, as they will nee to know since they have probably imported other dogs from his lines since they were the ones that connected you with the Japanese breeder.
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After all, this morning he jumped on the couch to lay down, lets hope yesterday was just a very bad day for him. Keep you guys posted!
I hate to use Shousei's discomfort as an opportunity to make a point, but I think it's an important one. I want to highlight something you said: "The breeder is one of the best in Japan, winning many national trofees with best shikoku." Awards in the conformation ring, while nice, are in no way an indicator of the quality or health of a dog. Chrys posted a BBC documentary on CRUFTS a while back which serves to illustrate how a focus on conformation awards can be to the detriment of the health of a dog and even an entire breed. http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4755.
Right now you need to focus on making sure your pup is comfortable and happy. But when you have some time, please spend the hour to watch that documentary. It should be eye opening for you.
We went through this cycle for weeks. I finally took her to my beloved Orthopedic doctor. He is one of the top guys in North America and I trust him implicitly.
He took some xrays and said to avoid surgery she would need to rest for 12-16 weeks. She is on week 12 now and goes in for her follow up tomorrow.
I mention this only because these are very tough dogs and they put up with A LOT of pain before they show any discomfort. I would still encourage you to get an xray from a reputable orthopedic vet (not just a regular one, they don't even know what to look for. FWIW My guy also pointed out that there are only three people in the U.S. qualified to read veterinary MRIs so they can be a complete waste of money too) to make sure that Shousei he isn't just putting on a strong face.
And even the best breeders in the world can still produce a dog with LP. Better to know in the early stages, before he is in extreme pain, and definitely before he gets bred.