Shikoku's are mutts?
alright, i keep running into things that are pretty much pointing at shikoku's as MUTTS. Like one person on the internet asked about where to get a shikoku, and someone responded with this:
"Well you can't really say that mix of dog won't have any Shiba traits as it's a mixed breed (mutt) and traits are not set. In other words you can't predict anything about it. And why go looking for a breeder? Any breeder breeding mutts is a 'breeder' with no ethics. It' would just be a rip off.
If you go on petfinders.com you can find a nice mixed breed dog. It will have had all it's shots, worming, neuter/spay, might even have been microchipped, temperament tested and already traind to some degree, and all that for cost. WHAT A BARGAIN!!!!"
Are shikoku's really just a randomly mixed breed? See the picture below as well...
please don't take an offense to this, i am just curious :)
P.S. if they are mixed to be created, why do people look at shikoku's like they're mutts bred by BYB's? I mean, some of the most treasured breeds are mixed, such as the bull mastiff, crossed with mastiff and bulldog, and the smooth collie, crossed with collie and greyhound, and the doberman, crossed with rottweiler and greyhound and all those other breeds that were mixed...bull terriers were mixed with several breeds to get their look as well!
"Well you can't really say that mix of dog won't have any Shiba traits as it's a mixed breed (mutt) and traits are not set. In other words you can't predict anything about it. And why go looking for a breeder? Any breeder breeding mutts is a 'breeder' with no ethics. It' would just be a rip off.
If you go on petfinders.com you can find a nice mixed breed dog. It will have had all it's shots, worming, neuter/spay, might even have been microchipped, temperament tested and already traind to some degree, and all that for cost. WHAT A BARGAIN!!!!"
Are shikoku's really just a randomly mixed breed? See the picture below as well...
please don't take an offense to this, i am just curious :)
P.S. if they are mixed to be created, why do people look at shikoku's like they're mutts bred by BYB's? I mean, some of the most treasured breeds are mixed, such as the bull mastiff, crossed with mastiff and bulldog, and the smooth collie, crossed with collie and greyhound, and the doberman, crossed with rottweiler and greyhound and all those other breeds that were mixed...bull terriers were mixed with several breeds to get their look as well!
Comments
I'm no Shikoku expert, but I don't think you'd come upon a Shikoku in a BYB setting or shelter if so I'd be pretty sad..
Though in Japan I'm sure they can be found in shelters from time to time and things like that.
I'm sure you'll get better answers soon as far as I know Shikoku are not mutts they aren't mixed with shiba inu I'm sure sometimes oops breeding of the two might happen, but I doubt it would be on purpose.
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Also, to clarify. ALL dogs are "mutts." There is no "pure dog" [ at least, not anymore ] and different breeds were combined hundreds, thousands, etc. years ago into the breeds we know today. NEW breeds are still being created. [ just like humans, there are a million races, but at one point there were only a few...we all came from the same place somewhere ]
However, there is a difference. You can not breed a Collie-Great Dane mix to another Collie-Great Dane mix & get the same exact puppy. Hence the "mutt." However, breeding a shikoku to a shikoku will result in a...Ta-Da! Shikoku puppy. I think, [ not sure ] a dog no longer is a "mutt" when you can breed & get a consistent phenotype. [ which takes quite a few generations to get ] ~
And to all, yeah i guess that pic is for the Tosa. I just kinda figured it was showing what was mixed together to create the shikoku *hints all the dogs pointing at the shikoku* but i just found that pic on google and assumed. didnt really look at the website lol
right-that is why I said it doesn't make sense,
the article is about Tosa, so why isn't a Tosa in the middle and not a shikoku. It is not displayed correctly. The shikoku should be on the outside circle too.
I've met a few of these people, & their attitude is really annoying. But yeah, if a person had asked about a shiba, or a german shepherd, odds are that person would say the same thing.
At one point in time, the shikoku was a mix of different breeds, but like the Kai, Akita, Shiba, Hokkaido, & Kishu, they are no longer mixed with anything else. They have now become "their own breed." While some hunters mix the breeds, they do NOT call them "pure shikoku." They call them "shikoku crosses" or just "mutts."
Re: The Picture. A shikoku is a spitz breed [ double coat, curled tail, prick ears, tight lips ] all the dogs shown in those photos are NOT spitz. They're ponters, mastiffs, terriers, etc. Thus, a shikoku could not have been created from those breeds alone.
Honestly, if you want good [ real ] information on Shikoku, you should look here, on the three North American breeder's websites [ Akashima, O-Ikon, Yamabushi ] or, if you're fluent in Japanese, search the Japanese websites. Everything else is either BS or just a general "breed description"
That's my assumption from looking this picture. Which is kind weird because by just looking at the Tosa...I think it'd make more sense that the Mastiff be in the center and the Shikoku on the outer rim. However, perhaps the Mastiff genes is much more dominate or rather, express' itself more so via physical appearance. Obviously...the Tosa is the result out of these combined breed mixes.
Now that the Tosa offspring have been consistent in replicating both parents without variablity...they've achieved their own status as a recognized "pure" breed.
So Shikokus are really NOT mutts in the sense most people use the word.
If I got everything right (the experts and breeders may correct me, if I'm not) all the six NK are based on the japanese spitz and developed due to the lack of exchange of genes into six different breeds in six different areas of Japan. (The prefectures of Shiba, Akita, Shikoku, Kai, Kishu and Hokkaido, which gave the breed-names.)
In fact - due to the geographical isolation of Japan - these breeds can be considered as some of the "purest" in the world, as far as I know...
As far as I know, the "purest" dog "breed" is the NGSD as they have never been purposely bred by humans and lived in extremely remote and isolated areas.
I also think maybe some of us have taken this question a bit deeper than it needs to go. The short and simple answer is that the Shikoku Ken is not a mixed breed. It's a pure bred.
I think we could get into the history and how all the NK are basically the same breed and that all dogs are mixed and all that - but I think the OP's question is not a very deep one. Perhaps I'm wrong about that, but that's the vibe I get.
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The irony of the pic that is posted in the first post, under this context, is that the Shikoku Ken is less a mongrel than the Pointer, Dane, St. Bernard, and mos def the Bull Terrier. LOL
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If I got everything right (the experts and breeders may correct me, if I'm not) all the six NK are based on the japanese spitz and developed due to the lack of exchange of genes into six different breeds in six different areas of Japan. (The prefectures of Shiba, Akita, Shikoku, Kai, Kishu and Hokkaido, which gave the breed-names.)
>> Um, I've never heard this before. I'm not sure where you got that info from.
From my understanding the Japanese Spitz was a breed that came AFTER the Shika Inu. The Japanese Spitz is not an indigenous Nihonken while the Kishu, Shikoku, Kai, Shiba, Hokka, and Akita are indigenous (hints why this forum doesn't list the Japanese Spitz as a breed category).
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Nihon Ken literally means Japanese Dog. And yes, the NK is a spitz type. However like Brad said they are not related to the Japanese Spitz which is a separate breed created from crossing imported Samoyed's with the German Spitz just before the turn of the century.
The present day NK was classified in the early 1900's into 7 different types (the Koshi-no-Inu is extinct) and named according to the areas they were discovered (other than the Shiba which is not named after a geographic area). Researchers scoured the country looking for pockets of NK that had not interbred with imported Western dogs. It's not a coincidence then that the 6 breeds were all discovered in very remote mountainous areas of Japan.
@Kyralyn
I'm happy to chime in with the choir and say that the Shikoku are as pure bred as most breeds out there. The registry has been closed for over 50 years now I think. That graph is actually incorrect as the caption in the middle should say Tosa Ken. The Shikoku was originally called the Tosa, but since people were getting it mixed up with the fighting dog, they changed its name to Shikoku. At the time they were mixing those breeds together with the local dogs to create fighting dogs, the Shikoku was still called a Tosa (have I made this more confusing for you? :P )
@ Ala-Chan: ah now it makes sense! lol no you didn't make it more confusing, made it easier. neat that they are the one of the purest!
@ Sangmort: aha! thats cool. i wasnt being sarcastic about that, i seriously like that attitude!! i dont like it when people sugar coat everything lol. best when you're straight up about it and aren't afraid to say how you feel!! :))
But anyway, i know see that they are NOT mutts, and that some people are full of shit instead of knowledge in the breed. LOL thanks yalls!
Thanks for correcting me on that! I must have mixed up something and translated it wrong, I'm sorry!
But there was something like the japanese "basic" spitz dog, wasn't it? All breeds go back to one ancestor, don't they?
Sorry for mixing everything up and confusing people, I didn't mean to! >.<