Cool video. I think one of the biggest things people often forget when coexisting with any animal is that they don't speak our language. It was nice to see it brought up
Funnily enough, one of the biggest things I took away was how to increase the "fun" that a human has for a pup, vs how much fun something else is.
I spoke to a breeder / trainer about a month ago who was explaining something similar to me.
We were talking about a dog with high prey drive who has poor recall when there is a prey distraction. He said the main reason the dog would prefer to take off, for example, after a deer vs come back to you, is because chasing the deer has a fun level of about "9" whereas you have a fun level of about "4." It was a long discussion, but in essence, his point was that it's damn near impossible to increase the "fun level" of a human, but it's easy to decrease the "fun level" of chasing the deer. [ by using an ecollar & positive punishment ]
Now, while I found the conversation enlightening, I felt that there MUST be a way to do this without the use of an ecollar. [ when someone says something is impossible, I want to try to prove it IS possible ] There either has to be a way to make coming back to the human "more fun," or make chasing the deer "less fun" without having to resort to positive punishment / ecollar. & I'm glad Ian Dunbar discussed this in his video.
Thanks--this was great. And in such contrast to other trainers who insist on dominating the dog (and in this I use that term specifically, because I believe it is what trainers like Millan are doing).
I don't want to make a huge thing about this, but I went through a really rough couple of years, in which a lot of people were very very cruel to one another (not physically, but in other ways), and what came out of that was a desire to help add more kindness to the world. I kept thinking there is something wrong with the fact that many people think kindness is "wimpy" or irrelevent. I kept thinking how much better the world with be if people at least began with kindness and a certain generosity of spirit.
so this is what struck me so much about the talk, which was just as much about people as about dogs. We can try to be kind, we can try to being with being positive, and it's something some other dog trainers have mentioned: a lot of these things work with people too. Be clear about what we want. Find a way to reward behavior. Don't reward bad behavior with attention.
I dunno. I'm on the verge of sounding really sappy now, but I think that was a great talk, with a great message.
@Osy - IMHO, one thing that the breeder/trainer you mentioned is missing is that its not just appearing fun to the dog but also appearing as a valued resource to the dog. If you elevate your value to the dog from a resource standpoint AND a fun standpoint then you are more valuable to the dog than that deer is (especially if you never let them catch and eat a deer). When you add those concepts to the concept of gambling (which I mentioned in your other post) then you strengthen their impulse to value you even more. The issues with trainers that subscribe to P+ is that they are devaluing themselves as a resource in the eyes of the dog, which in turn makes them have to work harder (punish more often and harsher) in order to "control" the dog.
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@Lisa - I actually found this video while researching ideas on parenting (since I will be a parent any day now). So, I totally agree with you. )
I am cross posting this from the other dominance thread....
The Ian Dunbar video (thanks brad for ferreting it out) got me thinking about the relationship building process and dominance issues again. Upon my morning cup of joe today I happened to be reviewing Lee Charles Kelly blog and came upon this.
“it’s important to know that captive wolves exhibit stress-related dominant and submissive behaviors, but that these behaviors are rarely found in wild wolves. The reason for this is that captive wolves aren’t able to relieve their internal stress by going out as a group and hunting large prey, so they engage in internecine squabbles instead. Dominant and submissive behaviors are rare in wild wolves because hunting and killing large prey is the ultimate stress-reducer.” Here is a link to the whole article in context http://leecharleskelleysblog.blogspot.com/2010/06/seven-games-associated-with-predatory.html
This is really significant because the whole dominance theory or study with wolves is more than likely a crock as well. Obviously, if true, past research has focused on corralled studies and it is highly probable abnormal or altered behavior was observed and recorded thereby resulting in a skewed way to handle it, let alone inappropriately applied to dogs.
In my mind this further puts a nail in the coffin in regard dominance epistemology in training of canines in general. The whole dominance issue is flawed from the get go. (I think Brad pointed this out in some older posts.) However, the Dunbar video drove that home as it overlapped with Kelly.
Now how to communicate this fallacy to a 101 class of dog owners is tough without requiring them to take a sociology segment on learning theory. Being decent at training and communicating as a trainer is no easy task and he does it so well. A fully versed and flexible trainer is worth their weight in gold, certainly something to aspire to in terms of communication and application.
Some of the 7 sequences described by Kelly have worked for many to build the relationship between human and dog and I think some of the best at agility and service training people have put it into play with success without even knowing it. It is nice to see it spelled out. Really forming the bond that keeps training interesting and motivates is the majority of the battle in maintaining attention and focus. Use of the inherent prey drive in play, truly relieves some stress that we often see exhibited in the day to day, such as barrier aggression, foot chewing, tail chasing or antics that result in recall problems.
An interesting read if one gets a chance. I think this also relates a bit to MacConnells theory on play as well.
Comments
Funnily enough, one of the biggest things I took away was how to increase the "fun" that a human has for a pup, vs how much fun something else is.
I spoke to a breeder / trainer about a month ago who was explaining something similar to me.
We were talking about a dog with high prey drive who has poor recall when there is a prey distraction. He said the main reason the dog would prefer to take off, for example, after a deer vs come back to you, is because chasing the deer has a fun level of about "9" whereas you have a fun level of about "4." It was a long discussion, but in essence, his point was that it's damn near impossible to increase the "fun level" of a human, but it's easy to decrease the "fun level" of chasing the deer. [ by using an ecollar & positive punishment ]
Now, while I found the conversation enlightening, I felt that there MUST be a way to do this without the use of an ecollar. [ when someone says something is impossible, I want to try to prove it IS possible
Thanks Brad! ~
I don't want to make a huge thing about this, but I went through a really rough couple of years, in which a lot of people were very very cruel to one another (not physically, but in other ways), and what came out of that was a desire to help add more kindness to the world. I kept thinking there is something wrong with the fact that many people think kindness is "wimpy" or irrelevent. I kept thinking how much better the world with be if people at least began with kindness and a certain generosity of spirit.
so this is what struck me so much about the talk, which was just as much about people as about dogs. We can try to be kind, we can try to being with being positive, and it's something some other dog trainers have mentioned: a lot of these things work with people too. Be clear about what we want. Find a way to reward behavior. Don't reward bad behavior with attention.
I dunno. I'm on the verge of sounding really sappy now, but I think that was a great talk, with a great message.
----
@Lisa - I actually found this video while researching ideas on parenting (since I will be a parent any day now). So, I totally agree with you.
----
I was so amazed, that I had to translate the whole speech into German for the Shiba-forum!
The Ian Dunbar video (thanks brad for ferreting it out) got me thinking about the relationship building process and dominance issues again. Upon my morning cup of joe today I happened to be reviewing Lee Charles Kelly blog and came upon this.
“it’s important to know that captive wolves exhibit stress-related dominant and submissive behaviors, but that these behaviors are rarely found in wild wolves. The reason for this is that captive wolves aren’t able to relieve their internal stress by going out as a group and hunting large prey, so they engage in internecine squabbles instead. Dominant and submissive behaviors are rare in wild wolves because hunting and killing large prey is the ultimate stress-reducer.” Here is a link to the whole article in context http://leecharleskelleysblog.blogspot.com/2010/06/seven-games-associated-with-predatory.html
This is really significant because the whole dominance theory or study with wolves is more than likely a crock as well. Obviously, if true, past research has focused on corralled studies and it is highly probable abnormal or altered behavior was observed and recorded thereby resulting in a skewed way to handle it, let alone inappropriately applied to dogs.
In my mind this further puts a nail in the coffin in regard dominance epistemology in training of canines in general. The whole dominance issue is flawed from the get go. (I think Brad pointed this out in some older posts.) However, the Dunbar video drove that home as it overlapped with Kelly.
Now how to communicate this fallacy to a 101 class of dog owners is tough without requiring them to take a sociology segment on learning theory. Being decent at training and communicating as a trainer is no easy task and he does it so well. A fully versed and flexible trainer is worth their weight in gold, certainly something to aspire to in terms of communication and application.
Some of the 7 sequences described by Kelly have worked for many to build the relationship between human and dog and I think some of the best at agility and service training people have put it into play with success without even knowing it. It is nice to see it spelled out. Really forming the bond that keeps training interesting and motivates is the majority of the battle in maintaining attention and focus. Use of the inherent prey drive in play, truly relieves some stress that we often see exhibited in the day to day, such as barrier aggression, foot chewing, tail chasing or antics that result in recall problems.
An interesting read if one gets a chance. I think this also relates a bit to MacConnells theory on play as well.
Snf