Is the Akita Inu right for me...?

edited July 2010 in Akita (秋田犬)
Hey - as I mentioned in my introduction I am seriously thinking about getting an Akita Inu, though not immediately - they are pretty much at the top of my breed list right now. Hoping to get some expert opinions here....!

If I give a quick (ish...) description of my circumstances and exactly what I am looking for in a dog, I would be most grateful if any JA owners could give me their totally honest thoughts on whether I am the right kind of owner or not.

I live with my boyfriend in a medium sized apartment, with an enclosed (small) garden, close to lots of green spaces and great walking routes. We are both active, but not hardcore - i.e. we like to go out for long walks, some jogging, cycling, messing about. We don't have kids or any plans to have them in the future! We probably only want one dog, though it may be socialised with cats from an early age. I am self-employed and am at home or in dog-friendly places a lot, so would be spending a lot of time with the dog.

The trait I value most is loyalty. The JA seems to be renowned for its loyalty, but after reading hundreds of forum posts I am a bit confused about what kind of loyalty and how far it goes. For instance, will a JA typically want to be at its owner's side when out, or will it want to bolt, like certain huskies I could mention...? I always keep dogs leashed in public places but really want to be able to let mine off-leash in safe places. I don't expect it to stick to me like glue, but I need a dog that will range close to me and be capable of responding reliably to recall and down if trained from an early age. I don't really like it when you get the feeling that your dog would rather be a million miles away as soon as you open the gate.

I also value protectiveness; I don't want to specifically protection train my dog but I do need to feel that it has the intelligence and loyalty to respond, at the very least by barking and growling, if its owner is obviously being attacked. Hypothetically (unless that has happened to you...) do you think a well socialised JA would typically have enough balls to show protectiveness in an obvious attack situation? What about strangers coming into the house, are they typically aloof or is this just a matter of how they've been socialised?

I really want a one man (woman! or family) dog that I can bond with and feel that we have a respectful, adult, loyal two-way relationship. I have found this to be a bit lacking in huskies, who are not the most loyal of dogs. My family had wolf hybrids but they were far too insane to consider as UK house pets, and would probably illegal over here anyway. They also make life a constant battle of wills which is not really what I want now.

I have considered GSDs as they have wonderful temperaments but seem to be riddled with health issues, and also have that inescapable doggy smell which I have never been able to get used to in the shorter haired breeds. I really need a big plush coat to bury my head in as that is what I know and love (my boyfriend is the same) and so really the ancient and northern breeds are the only ones for me.

What do you think - could the JA be the right choice??
:]

Comments

  • edited November -1
    People with JAs will be able to respond better to this than me, because I do not have one (I have Shibas and a very very young AA), but I do think some of the things you are looking for would be found in Akitas of either variety. They are loyal and dedicated to their people, and would make a good only dog. I think Akitas can be trained to a recall if you work on it (not like Shibas, which I know CAN be, but for the most part aren't reliable and are never off leash dogs).

    I think it's a matter of what you like. GSDs certainly also would fit the bill, and if you're worried about health issues, Malinois have less, but have similar traits (though both breeds need a lot more work to be happy, and Malinois can be pretty intense dogs). I think you can find healthy GSD's too, and probably are more likely to find them in Europe than the US. As for smell, a GSD will not have a doggy odor if you feed him right....mine did not. (I fed him a raw diet).

    That said, GSD's were not really the breed for me. I loved that he wanted to be with me, had a great recall, was very biddable, etc. He had a great "protective" sense--in fact was perfect in that way I think, in that he never showed aggression to anyone, and was generally a polite dog and mostly just wanted someone to throw the ball for him. But in a couple of situations where he thought I was threatened, he was right there immediately, getting in between me and the perceived threat (in one case it was funny but dramatic: I was at a friend's house hitting a heavy boxing bag, and all he saw was something large swinging toward me. He launched off the ground and bit the bag at what would be a person's throat. Then he seemed to realize he had attacked....something not alive....and let go, and looked embarrassed!) But he was a velcro dog, like so many of them are, and I found him a bit too clingy and I think I did not come up with enough "tasks" for him.

    anyway, I think an Akita could work for you, though there are probably other dogs that also might fit the bill--hence it becomes a matter of taste, too.
  • edited July 2010
    I have owned 4 Akita Inu (JA), we own one now - tho he is a bit of a moron. I can answer your questions to the best of my ability, but I am biased as I have not had the best experiences with the breed...

    The main question of "is the Akita Inu right for me [you]", will have to be answered by you. I think anyone that comes here and asks if a breed is right for them has the best intentions in mind and would therefore make a good owner of any breed.

    Your other questions...

    The trait I value most is loyalty. The JA seems to be renowned for its loyalty, but after reading hundreds of forum posts I am a bit confused about what kind of loyalty and how far it goes. For instance, will a JA typically want to be at its owner's side when out, or will it want to bolt, like certain huskies I could mention...?
    >> I think the Akita Inu is a very stubborn dog, stubborn to a fault IMHO. I think their stubbornness can be misread as "loyalty" by some. Having recently rehomed 3 Akita Inu who lived with us for many years, and transitioned almost effortlessly to a new home, I would have to say that I do not feel Akita Inu are very loyal - at least when I compare them to some other breeds who are said to be loyal. As for staying by you and not wondering off, I think they are less likely to wonder off than a husky but more likely than a GSD. I have had our off-lead in the past and been met with mixed results. I wouldn't trust the breed off-lead 100%. Tho, IMHO, Velcro-ness and loyalty do not necessarily go hand in hand.

    I also value protectiveness; I don't want to specifically protection train my dog but I do need to feel that it has the intelligence and loyalty to respond, at the very least by barking and growling, if its owner is obviously being attacked. Hypothetically (unless that has happened to you...) do you think a well socialised JA would typically have enough balls to show protectiveness in an obvious attack situation? What about strangers coming into the house, are they typically aloof or is this just a matter of how they've been socialised?
    >> I think you can rely on an Akita Inu to bark at something he/she perceives as a threat. If that is what you consider "protectiveness", then the answer is yes. If you view "protectiveness" as physically engaging a threat, then I wouldn't put my money on an Akita Inu meeting your expectations. I would NOT put my life in the paws of an Akita Inu - they are not a guardian breed.

    I really want a one man (woman! or family) dog that I can bond with and feel that we have a respectful, adult, loyal two-way relationship.
    >> I think you can easily achieve this with an Akita Inu via positive training. Our Akita have all been VERY easy dogs to live with, and very polite. As puppies they are almost like adults (when compared to some other breeds).

    I have considered GSDs as they have wonderful temperaments but seem to be riddled with health issues, and also have that inescapable doggy smell which I have never been able to get used to in the shorter haired breeds. I really need a big plush coat to bury my head in as that is what I know and love (my boyfriend is the same) and so really the ancient and northern breeds are the only ones for me.
    >> On the health note, as you mentioned GSD have health issues, I wouldn't expect an Akita Inu to be much better in that department either. As for coat and smell, Akita are very fluffy and clean and rarely smell. We've put Fuji or Hilo in their crate covered in mud from a hike, went to bed, and got up in the AM to find the SPOTLESS - I dunno how they do it!

    --

    I know I am kinda negative about the breed, but that is because we have had a real unfortunate time with ours. I know their are other owners out there who have never had the issues we have had. Also, when we got into Akita I very much bought into the hype and sensationalism that surrounds the breed and their history... I was let down and very disappointed.

    The breed is a lovely breed, they make great pets, but they are no longer the powerful working breed that the historians, breeders, and enthusiasts want to believe they are.

    I do love the breed for what they are now, but I am admittedly a bit disgusted at what they have become when compared to what they are supposed to be. So my comments are based on our experiences with the 4 Akita Inu we have lived with, which are examples of what the breed is today.

    ----
  • edited July 2010
    Reading what Brad said about the NK coat, well that's exactly what I experience every day. Yesterday for instance it was pouring rain, and the dogs were covered in mud from working wild boar. Got home, put them in their crates with a towel, and a few hours later they're spotless. And these are white dogs. Double coat for the win! I can't remember the last time I showered the dogs.

    I've never owned an Akita so no input on that, but I will say that if possible hanging out with Akita breeders/owners and their dogs will probably give you a good picture of whether or not they're the breed you're looking for. I've been disappointed in the past by picking breeds by following the 'hype' surrounding them, and it didn't work out well.
  • edited November -1
    I am not going to add much because I think Brad's assessment is fairly spot on and frankly I live with one of Brad's Akita. I will say I think it comes down to your expectations. IF you are looking for a dog whose company you will enjoy who will make you laugh; Akita are wonderful.

    Hilo plays wonderfully with my other two dogs, does dances of joy and sings/howls when I come home or down the stairs, he lets off an impressively menacing bark when I take him out at night and a stranger walks towards me. But if I am about to walk him somewhere he doesn't want to go and he had a choice to leave my side, I think he would take it. I don't take it personally. I take that as a sign of independent thought. If my husband is going somewhere I don't want to go 9 times out of ten I will tell him I am going home. That doesn't mean I don't love him, it just means I have my own life too.

    IF you haven't had the opportunity to spend any time with JA first hand I would encourage you to do so. I think it would make it very clear very quickly if they are the right breed for you.

    BTW I grew up with GSD's and they are VERY VERY different than Akita.
  • edited November -1
    Just wanted to chime in on the coat--so true! It is kind of miraculous, and true of all the NK I think. My Shibas are always clean, no matter how dirty they got. And the little Mr. Fuzzy Butt (ie. the Akita puppy) has a habit of playing in any water he sees,then rolling around in the dirt, and he comes in filthy, and in a few hours is clean again--how do they do that? :)

    This may not be the proper thread for it, but sometime I'd like to hear Brad's experience with the Akitas--ie. expectations vs. what you got, what you were looking for, etc.

    I laughed at the stubbornness....yes, they are stubborn (I'm already seeing it in my 8 week old pup), but damn, for sheer stubbornness, Shibas take the prize, I think!

    I wonder if there is much temperament difference between the AAs and JAs, or if it comes down more to individual dogs. The Akita (American) I had years ago was very protective of me (and would engage, not just bark), and she also was very loyal, down to not functioning well without me. But I suspect that had more to do with the individual dog, and perhaps was even a liability and simply an offshoot of her lack of good socialization.

    And yes, I'll second Jess: GSD's are VERY different.
  • edited November -1
    Thanks for all the comments, really useful. I would be very interested to hear about Brad's experience too, it didn't really sound that negative so I'm wondering what you were expecting, and how the JA fell short?

    I'm also wondering about the difference between the JA and the AA in terms of temperament shibamistress - I would be open to getting an AA but taste wise I much prefer the appearance of the JA. The AA also seems more typically doglike in their movements whereas the JA seems quite catlike which is so appealing, although this could just be an illusion as the JA looks physically more dainty.

    I am confused on the protectiveness thing as some people - like Brad - don't think they would actually engage whereas some people seem to swear that they would lay down their life for you... maybe an example of breed hype? Or perhaps that is more a trait of the AA, if there is a difference between them?

    I definitely need to spend some time with JAs. I have met only one, and that was a while ago, so most of my knowledge comes from reading and watching youtube videos... :/
  • edited November -1
    I have a number of friends with AA's. And I have a JA. They are completely different dogs. I would never describe my JA as cat like. Goofy would be far more fitting. But then again I have four cats. And so none of my dogs by comparison seem cat like (not even my shiba when I had one).

    I personally would never want a dog to engage. Alright maybe if someone was outright assaulting me, but in this day and age, if any of my dogs lays one tooth on a person, my dog is going to get put down. And with breed hype the way it is (I work in pit bull rescue. Pit bulls are banned in many countries including the UK) I don't ever want to think I am contributing to the hype.
  • edited July 2010
    I would be very interested to hear about Brad's experience too, it didn't really sound that negative so I'm wondering what you were expecting, and how the JA fell short?
    >> The answer to this is here on the forum, in past threads. Its all there, the good and bad, the poor choices we (my wife and I) made and how we were taken advantage of. One day I might aggregate it all and put it in one thread detail bloodlines and such, so others can learn and hopefully not make the same mistakes we made - but I don't have the energy to do that right now, I am sorry. It's a long and painful story for us - would be like picking a scab.

    --

    I will write this tho, the wikipedia article on on the Akita Inu described their temperament as...
    Akita Inu are renowned as loyal dogs and are also intelligent. But because of their intelligence, they are easily bored. As a result, they often become destructive if not given anything to do. Akita Inu can live happily in apartments as long as they are given plenty of exercise. They need to be socialized as puppies so they are friendly dogs and should have experienced owners. Although they love human companionship, they are quite happy to be outside dogs as well, but should still be taken out for walks to prevent destruction of the yard. Akita Inu often become excitable when seeing their owners, often wiggling around and making happy grunts.

    Akita Inu are very good with children, and are often quite playful, although they should be watched around small children as they could knock them over during play.

    The Akita Inu have a reputation for sometimes being aggressive towards smaller animals or other dogs, particularly those of the same sex. However they can live happily with other dogs and animals providing they are socialized well. They are excellent guard dogs and naturally protective of their home and family. The Akita Inu has a reputation for being an excellent house dog. They make great family dogs with the right training and socialization.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akita_Inu#Temperament
    We have had 4 Akita, 3 shared the same dad (which was a mistake on our part) but all had different mothers. One (Huna) is a complete out-cross from the other 3. Here I will pick apart that temperament description and give you what I have found to be true or false with the breed (based on our personal experience)...

    - Akita Inu are renowned as loyal dogs and are also intelligent.
    >> I have not found this to be the case, ours that have been rehomed were rehomed with no issues. Other breeds that I have worked with, who are said to be loyal too, when rehomed, they get obviously depressed and take a LONG TIME to bond to their new owners - this has not been the case with our Akita Inu.

    With our Akita Inu, I have noticed that if you hand their lead to someone and walk away - they get stressed - this maybe could be read as "loyalty" but I read it as separation anxiety. There is a big difference between anxiety and loyalty. To me, the Akita Inu breed is FILLED with high-anxiety representatives.

    - But because of their intelligence, they are easily bored. As a result, they often become destructive if not given anything to do.
    >> Again, this is an example of anxiety NOT intelligence. We also have not found our Akita to get bored, actually, if anything, we found our Akita to be somewhat boring themselves.

    - Although they love human companionship, they are quite happy to be outside dogs as well, but should still be taken out for walks to prevent destruction of the yard.
    >> This is total BS! They do NOT like being outside without their owner. They like to be with their people (hints the separation anxiety mentioned above), they are NOT happy being outside on their own. They also seem to lack the primal intelligence needed to seek shelter when weather turns bad - which, to me, makes them horrible outside dogs. When we would put ours outside (all 4 of them), they would spend every second they were out there looking in the window waiting for us to let them in - does that sound like a dog that is happy to be out in the yard???

    - Akita Inu are very good with children, and are often quite playful, although they should be watched around small children as they could knock them over during play.
    >> We rehomed Hilo because we had a baby and he doesn't like children. Lani, on the other hand, was OK with Chase (our baby). Huna is a complete tard around her and jumps around like an idiot. Not sure I would call this "very good with children"... Our Kai, on the other hand, are perfect with Chase (yet they have been described as a breed that is bad with kids).

    - The Akita Inu have a reputation for sometimes being aggressive towards smaller animals or other dogs...
    >> We have seen Lani and Fuji slip into predatory drift, so I think they are right about the smaller dog thing. Lani's drift was fueled by her thyroid issue, which made it particularly bad.

    - The Akita Inu have a reputation for sometimes being aggressive ... those of the same sex.
    >> I disagree. We have not seen any same-sex aggression i the breed - none at all.

    - However they can live happily with other dogs and animals providing they are socialized well.
    >> I agree with this.

    - They are excellent guard dogs and naturally protective of their home and family.
    >> If this was the case, why did we need to add Ovcharka to our ranch to help keep predators away? I think Akita Inu will bark at a threat, and I think they will act aggressively toward a threatening dog (with or without their owner present), but I would NOT call them a guard dog (but I would call them a watch dog).

    - The Akita Inu has a reputation for being an excellent house dog. They make great family dogs with the right training and socialization.
    >> I agree, they are great house dogs and good family dogs assume you get one who is ok with children.

    --

    I am confused on the protectiveness thing as some people - like Brad - don't think they would actually engage whereas some people seem to swear that they would lay down their life for you... maybe an example of breed hype? Or perhaps that is more a trait of the AA, if there is a difference between them?
    >> Ok, I will just come out and say it - tho I know I will offend other Akita owners (sorry)... This is just my opinion based on my experience with my 4 Akita Inu as well as the other Akita Inu and AA I have met (which totals around 25 Akita)...

    Akita are fear biters. They may BITE an intruder, but it would be a fear bite - not a protective bite. Our Akita bark at intruders, or at threats, sometimes they poo themselves too while doing it, 2 of our 4 go into avoidance and if cornered will bite. These are not traits of a guardian.

    A guard dog is a man-stopper, a dog that will take all the pressure needed to stop or eliminate a threat. This means they do NOT go into avoidance and they have the fight to stay on task (not run away). A guard dog challenges someone who pressures them, they don't poo themselves and run. When a guard dog bites they bite "inner body" - which means they bite the chest, neck, or thigh - they don't bite "outer body", like limbs and hands as an Akita would do.

    Our Akita are possessive, which means they will resource guard, which means they will bark or growl at someone (or something) that wants to take a resource from them, if that resource is you then that can be read as "protective" - but that doesn't make them a guard dog, that makes them insecure.

    If a watchdog (a dog that barks at a threat) is all you want, then an Akita Inu is a fine choice... but if you want a guard dog then an Akita Inu would be a poor choice.

    Again, this is all based on my opinion and experience with the breed. Perhaps an AA is more likely to be a man-stopper, I have not owned one so I can not speak to that. Based on reported attacks by AA I would guess that they are not man-stoppers...

    I would like to point out one thing tho, there are people who actively train/breed PPDs, and there are many breeds selected for this work. There are also people who breed property or livestock guardians, there are many breeds selected for this work too (and not often the same breeds as used for PPD work). Yet none of these trainers/breeders are using Akita (JA or AA)... So what does that tell you about the breed and their protective qualities?

    ----
  • edited July 2010
    I agree with all the points made by Brad above. Wanted to elaborate on this piece tho:

    "I would like to point out one thing tho, there are people who actively train/breed PPDs, and there are many breeds selected for this work. There are also people who breed property or livestock guardians, there are many breeds selected for this work too (and not often the same breeds as used for PPD work). Yet none of these trainers/breeders are using Akita (JA or AA)... So what does that tell you about the breed and their protective qualities?"

    When I was still considering getting into Protection Sports with my dutchie, I spoke to several different trainers---locally, & abroad. In our discussions, for curiosity's sake, I asked about Akita being used. [ shiba & the other medium-sized NK seemed to small to be candidates ] All of the trainers agreed along the lines of what Brad has said & basically related their experiences. They've had tons of people bring them their AA's [ not sure about JA's ] & none of them were could out to do even the most basic of PPD &/or Sport training.

    Could they be worked in these things for "fun?" Sure...but the dogs wouldn't enjoy it, at all. Nor would they even begin to succeed in the slightest.

    I think, ultimately, it will come down to this: Are you looking for a dog who will actually protect you? Or are you just looking for a dog that will be big & scary looking? If it's the first one, I don't honestly think an Akita is the right choice. If it's the second one, I think an akita will be OK.

    Never owned any Akita, but have grown up around tons of AA's & have met a few JA's now [ Brad's 4 JA + 5 of the JA from Miisan Kennels ] & while I LOVE Akita, & I think they are a great breed for certain people, I don't think they live up to the breed-hype either. [ tho I'd say most dogs don't live up to the breed-hype ]

    You can train a JA / AA to bark when you tell it to & "put on a good show" but I don't think they have the natural [ or learned ability ] to be a PPD. [ & this is nothing against the akita...so few breeds do have this quality ] ~
  • edited November -1
    Thanks Brad and Sangmort. Sometimes it's necessary to hear what you don't want to hear...! Sorry to have asked about your predicament without reading your previous posts first, I will look through them.

    About the protection thing: I'm not paranoid or anything, it's just that I have had a very bad experience of being seriously assaulted while my dog basically abandoned me. This was very hurtful and made me rethink what was important to me in a dog. Symbolically the fact that they would protect me is important to me now. I know that others might disagree but I just don't feel that a relationship with a dog is complete if it would just look on while you got hurt if it was more than strong enough to help, either out of stupidity or nervousness or whatever. Obviously it depends on what you expect and what is important to you. I very much look on dogs as friends/family rather than just a pet, so they have to give back and not just take, like cats do. That's one of the main reasons I was drawn to the JA, but from what I am reading here it doesn't sound like this is really something I could rely on.... maybe I have unrealistic expectations full stop.

    Brad, the way you describe your Akitas' fear response reminds me a lot of high content wolf hybrids - they just pee themselves all the time. Really scared of strangers and unknown situations, to the point of being paralysed and really wimping out.

    I have found a couple of JA breeders in the UK and am going to ask them if I can go up there and hang out with them. Perhaps I will put on a balaclava and run up to their owners going RAAAAAAAARGH! and then my protection questions will be answered!
  • edited July 2010
    About the protection thing: I'm not paranoid or anything, it's just that I have had a very bad experience of being seriously assaulted while my dog basically abandoned me.
    >> That sucks you had an experience like that with your dog. I'm sure that was scary and hurtful.

    --

    I know that others might disagree but I just don't feel that a relationship with a dog is complete if it would just look on while you got hurt if it was more than strong enough to help, either out of stupidity or nervousness or whatever. Obviously it depends on what you expect and what is important to you. I very much look on dogs as friends/family rather than just a pet, so they have to give back and not just take, like cats do.
    >> I agree with you, if protectiveness is in the breed's description I expect my dog to protect me. If protectiveness is not a breed trait then I don't expect the breed to protect me. Generally tho, even if protectiveness is part of the breed's description I will probably move to protect them as much as they would move to protect me - I see it as a joint responsibility.

    Honestly, I don't subscribe to the "any dog will protect you if they feel you are really in danger" concept. I just don't think that is true - I'd love for it to be, but I don't see it.

    I think any dog will protect themselves if they feel they are really in danger, but protecting their family is a trait that not many dogs really have. You have to search hard, even in some of the most highly regarded protection breeds, to find one that really has the nerves to protect their family.

    --

    That's one of the main reasons I was drawn to the JA, but from what I am reading here it doesn't sound like this is really something I could rely on.... maybe I have unrealistic expectations full stop.
    >> I don't think you have unrealistic expectations, I think the breed as a whole is grossly misrepresented.

    I guess that is why I have such a knee-jerk reaction to the "guard dog thing" in Akita Inu - its dangerous to the breed to represented them as something they are not. To put them in the position to protect is setting the breed up to fail. The Akita Inu is a GREAT breed, a wonderful PET, a loving companion, and a beautiful creation - but they are NOT a working breed, not anymore (not for 100s of years) - and there is nothing wrong with that.

    --

    I have found a couple of JA breeders in the UK and am going to ask them if I can go up there and hang out with them. Perhaps I will put on a balaclava and run up to their owners going RAAAAAAAARGH! and then my protection questions will be answered!
    >> I'll be interested to hear how that goes. I am sure they will dismiss my comments and say I got bad dogs or bad breeding - but keep in mind, our 3 Akita Inu who share a father are grand-kids of one of the most famous Akita Inu of all time who is behind many of the most popular bloodlines.

    ----
  • edited November -1
    Daggerlane, that is a really horrible thing to have to go through. I can totally understand your point of view.

    Allow me for just a second to share a story of the exact opposite situation.

    I had a dog, Piglet that I rescued. She and I were 100% soul mates. And there was never any question that she would lay down her life for me. The problem was in the final months of her life she developed a severe brain tumor. She stopped recognizing people. The only person she continued to recognize was me. One morning before the sun had fully risen my husband came to the bed room to kiss me goodbye as he was leaving for work. Piglet woke up to see him leaning over me. She did not recognize him, and just saw a very large man leaning over her sleeping mama. My husband is 6 foot 5 and over 250lbs. She was only 50lbs and 12 years old. She launched at him with a ferocity I had never seen. She threw him THROUGH my closet door and he could not fight her off. I had to throw a blanket over her and pull her off him. Three minutes later she was back to her normal self.

    Obviously this is an extreme situation. But it is something to keep in mind. I have three dogs now. A Shikoku, a Pit Bull (although I should point out the worlds teeniest pit bull. 35lbs so even someone afraid of the breed hype probably wouldn't be afraid of her), and a JA. All three dogs adore me. And I would not be shocked if the pit bull or actually the JA defended me if not at least put on a really scary display. But that said, I prefer having a family of dogs and knowing that my guests are safe around them, than feeling like I will definitely be defended and worry about innocent bystanders.
  • edited July 2010
    Jess makes such an important point: There are negative qualities that come with a "guardian breed" that many people don't want to deal with - and the Akita Inu doesn't have those negative qualities.

    --

    There is this other thing I call "The Guard Dog Paradox". It's this strange unrealistic expectation of dogs, especially guard dogs, that us humans have (myself included).

    A guard dog must know friend from enemy, they must have perfect judgment, they must be welcoming to friends and family but aggressive and relentless toward threats (human or animal), they must never show fear but be constantly "on alert" and suspect of everything. They must allow children to abuse them and act aggressively toward them and never make the wrong move around them. They must only act when commanded, but also they must think on their own and act when they feel they should without making a mistake. They must be aggressive toward aggressive dogs but friendly toward all other dogs and never act aggressively toward a smaller dog even if they are aggressive toward them.

    All these things in one package - in an animal that has less cognitive abilities than us humans, and yet we cannot even achieve the list of requirements I just listed. How many reports of "friendly fire" or cops acting on instinct and making a poor choice have you heard/read about? Yet we expect dogs to never make these types of mistakes. We expect them to be machines, to be perfect.

    Truth is, dogs make mistakes. They are only human, err... dogs.

    Sometimes it hurts when it happens (like in your case), but I don't think it means your dog was/is broken. ya know?

    ----
  • edited November -1
    Interesting thoughts about the protection issue. I think the AA female I had years ago mostly reacted to people out of fear--I got an unsocialized young dog, and didn't know enough to try to socialize her further, and her fear-based reaction to people (barking/growling) I thought was protection (I was young and knew very little about dogs, though I'd had them all my life). I wonder if her fear of people might have extended to fear of people hurting me? The one example I have was that I had a boyfriend at that time who was a disaster (told you I was young and clueless then) and she hated him. She was good on a down-stay, so she'd stay in position when he was in the house, but pretty much never stop growling. One day, when he was drunk, he picked up my 9mm and was waving it around, and she leaped up across the room and bit the arm that was holding the gun; he dropped the gun (thankfully unloaded) and she held him. She just did it on her own; certainly it was nothing I'd taught her. She let him go when I told her too, but she never wanted him in the house again (she was smarter than I was then!).

    It was protection of me, but perhaps out of fear too? Because she was a fearful dog in general. I don't know why she did what she did, or how she knew to do it. The people I'd bought her from were bikers who told me they'd happily trade her for a gun (though we paid cash for her) and I wonder if she'd had some experience with guns before?

    anyway, the bigger point Brad makes about what we expect PPD to do is a good one; we expect so much of dogs.

    Brad, I totally understand not wanting to go back over old wounds, so to speak. I've been going back through the forum bit by bit, and it sounds like you've been through a lot.
  • edited July 2010
    brads spot on tbh, i've had both breeds and my experience with my JA was pretty bad. huge vets bills due to health issue and temperment issues that all culminated in my dog been pts at 18months old. funnily enough my dog was a grandson of the same dog brads dogs are grandchildren of. all i can say is take your time finding a breeder most of the uk ones have their faults from not health testing to just throwing together dogs to create puppies with no thought at all, so finding the right one its really important. the breeds not in a great place here tbh which is one of the reasons i've held off buying again. just waiting and seeing where the breed goes over the next few years before we decide if we take the plunge again or just change breeds entirely.
  • aykayk
    edited November -1
    Brad,

    It's really sad to hear about your JA experience. I pieced together most of it, but I had still wondered why the need for the CO if there were so many Akitas. They didn't even gain strength by being in a pack?

    If you were to encounter a JA that still had hunting skills (at least catching stray cats) and guarding instincts (going for the body at intruders), think you would ever try them again?
  • edited November -1
    Wow. sounds like a lot is not right in the JA world....at least in certain lines. I'm really sorry to hear that (and does make me kind of glad I got an AA instead).
  • edited July 2010
    @Lisa - I dunno that I would go claiming the AA is healthier than the JA just yet, the AA is in just as bad shape. Have you read this book yet? I've never read a more inclusive book on the AA (or any breed)... The majority of the book focuses on potential health issues in the AA, I think that says something. Honestly, I think the JA is on-par with most dog breeds as far as health goes.

    ----

    @Ann...

    Lani was an ok watchdog, she would put on a good display and was always on alert, her judgment was just horrible tho, due to her thyroid issue. I called her "Nutty Lani". We just couldn't trust her around smaller dogs and pups, and that was the opposite of what we needed in a guardian. Lani was also not happy being out in the yard without us, she wanted to be inside on the couch. As I have written in the past, I don't like forcing dogs to live in a way that makes them unhappy.

    Hilo had a good bark, he would scare someone off I think. He was one of the only ones I think would protect, his health issues just prevented him from really being able to fulfill that role (you need to be able to move effectively if you are a guard).

    Kahuna is too crippled with HD to be an effective anything. He is always completely neophobic and has a high flight response. Not exactly a hero. From day 1 he acted like a wild or feral dog. He was also very sick the first year of his life.

    Fuji was an inside dog, she just wanted to be inside on the couch. That's all she wanted. When we put her outside she would just stare at us through the window. Fuji was very healthy tho, and she had a lot of prey drive. You could hunt with Fuji for sure, she just didn't fit well in such a rugged environment - she's more of a suburban girl. Actually, she lives with Dorothy and Paul now on their ranch in Southern Cali with Tenji (male Shikoku). She is doing great with them, here is part of a recent email from Dorothy (which made me laugh)...
    Fuji is wonderful! She is getting lots of exercise (tho she really loves her naps...lol), and really looks forward to her morning hour hike into the hills. She has had all her rattlesnake vaccine shots and graduated from snake school. She encountered a king snake in the yard and Tenji was right in her face telling her to lay off. Any critter that encroaches into our yard is in deep trouble. She has killed countless rabbits and a few squirrels. She brings them to Tenji. The squirrels can get thru the fence but the bunnies can't remember how they got in.....dumb bunnies. She looks perfect and everyone who meets her loves her. She and Tenji are the best of friends and she watches out for him when we encounter neighbor dogs. She has taken down three offending dogs and they don't even attempt to approach us anymore, She's quite a girl! We couldn't be happier the way this has worked out. We owe you two so much, XOXOXO
    So, Fuji has what it takes to be a hunter and she is certainly sharp toward offending dogs (Lani, Hilo, and Fuji all shared that trait), she just needed more of a "family" environment and less of a "dog" environment (that's to say she needed more couch time and people time than dog time like she had here). I don't think she'll ever lose that ruggid Taos Dog Ranch vibe tho. hehe.

    We love(d) our Akita, it was hard to place them - very hard to place them. Jen still cries about it. We did it for them, not for us. We knew they needed a different environment, and how they are flourishing in their new homes tells us we made the right choice for them.

    --

    So, collectively, sure our Akita could run off some Coyote and probably most human threats. But individually they each had their own issues that made them not the best choices (and sometimes not safe *Lani*) for the role we needed. Our dogs happiness is always first concern, so its way easier to have dogs that mesh well and are happy in our environment than to force other dogs (Akita) into a role they are not properly suited for or that would make them unhappy.

    On that note, no, I probably wouldn't give another Akita a try. I just don't want to be put in that position again - where we have a dog that is either not right for the role we envisioned for them, or where they are unhappy with us (that hurts). I wont lie, the prospect of an Akita true to the breed interests me, I just don't want to take the risk again. We've made too many mistakes already.

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  • aykayk
    edited November -1
    Thank you for sharing, Brad. It's wonderful to read of Fuji thriving in soCal. If Dorothy ever wants to try a hand at urban mushing with her Akita and Shikoku, I know of a JA owner who can introduce her to it in the Lancaster area of soCal.
  • edited November -1
    I bet they would love that, I'll pass the info on to her. Thanks!

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  • edited November -1
    I'm too lazy to get into this. My thoughts on some of the JA out of the EU are questionable at best. My gut tells me that they line breed way way too much -due to a lack of quality supply out of Japan. You need to find a good breeder who has JA or AA from different breeders and who's papers can show that they are somewhat diverse.

    Someone back in the middle of this topic brought up a question about a JA being Loyal. I would agree with some of the comments Brad made but I do want to add that in my case with my JA - once she knows you....she remembers you both good and bad. My neighbors daughter tried to stick her hand through an open window.. Kaeda did not like that and to this day barks at her. Ben(K's breeder -had not seen her during the time period of 13 weeks to 4 months). The second he started talking to her, she remember and got super excited to see him.

    Do i think the JA situation in Japan is a little better than the EU right now? Yes It may not be for all JAs but in the case of Akiho registered JAs - I have been told that they will contact breeders and warn them about litters being too close together. Is it perfect? No but it's a start.

    You need to figure out what you want from your Akita. For every bad event with one breed someone will always dig up the bad of another breed. If I were you I would contact Keith - http://www.aikokensha.com/ he is in Hungary but breed in the UK for many years.

    I wasn't the most help in the world but I think Keith can help you out way more.
  • edited November -1
    @Brad....yeah, I'm not meaning to claim they are healthier necessarily, but I'm hopeful my boy will be! :) And yes, I have that book. Just got it last week. A lot of the pics of the dogs in there are Hoka-Hey dogs (ie. Oskar's breeder).
  • edited November -1
    We've been sharing our home with Kuma and Nyx for 2 and a half years now. I mention Nyx because you said you'd like your dog to be around cats.
    Nyx came home one week before Kuma did, and they are basically the same age. They are great together, Kuma actually cleans Nyx's butt as she seems to be too important to do it sometimes and Kuma has a penchant for the disgusting (as pretty much all dogs have).

    Kuma has always been a confident little bugger, (I remember a Rottie dragging his owner in our direction on our first or second visit to the vet, and Kuma couldn't care less about it. I picked him up, just in case, but he wasn't phased at all by it).

    He will let out the occasional bark if he hears something out of the ordinary in the elevator landing, but that's it. My sister got to see another side of him, apparently, when he put on a display for some random guy who walked by them when she took him out. I have never seen this though.

    He is great with people. He will either greet them if he knows them, and if he does he can be very affectionate, or he will just ignore them. With kids, he's a pretty patient dog, he lets them pet him on walks, and will tolerate a bit of pushiness. When he has enough he moves away. We once had a friend with a kid over and the kid was being a bit of a brat. Kuma kept avoiding the kid, after he had enough. The kid insisted, even after his parents and I told him not too, and after a while (about an hour or so after he had enough) Kuma just barked at him and the kid got the message. That, to me, shows quite a bit of tolerance with kids. (I should have managed that better)

    With dogs, it is a totally different issue though. He is great with pretty much all the females he sees (unless attacked, and even then he shows a lot more tolerance than with males), but new males are a lottery, and unless they display what Kuma seems to understand as the "proper etiquette" they will be seen as "hostile" and he will not be glad in their presence. With Akita, or at least with Kuma that means it starts fast, ends faster, and the other dog doesn't like the outcome.He's had a few bad experiences (nothing that ever resulted in any injury), and although we socialized a lot (and I do mean a LOT) he still apparently thinks of other males ( 99% of them probably) as threats and will rarely give them the benefit of the doubt. He is rarely the one to start anything, though. He's not the only Akita I've seen displaying this behaviour. Kuma is not neutered. And he is fine with males around the neighbourhood, for example, that he's known for ever, even if they are aggressive. We have a neighbour Welsh Terrier that was OK with Kuma until Kuma got bigger than him (that happened at 4 months or so). From then on, he will go bananas as soon as he sees Kuma and put on this display of "I kill you, I kill you!". Kuma is not affected by this in the slightest, he just moves on. Any new male that did this and Kuma would, at least, be all puffed up. He tends to react more to lager males than to pint sized dogs, although a few pint sized ones "get his attention" occasionally.

    He likes his walks around the neibourhood or the park, but he's quite affected by heat (we are in Portugal). He also doesn't like to step in running water on a street, or anything that resembles a grill, like water collector covers on the street, or the mat in the entrance of our buidling. He will actively avoid any of those. So he's not exactly rugged. Although in fresh weather he doesn't refuse a good long walk in the woods.

    That's in broad strokes our experience with an Akita, I hope it helps.
  • edited November -1
    I do have an interesting thing to add about Akita remembering people. Lani, who is not typically friendly to strangers stayed with a friend of ours about 2 years ago, when Jen and I were traveling. Lani took a few days to accept Kendra, but once they did they became snuggle buddies. Well fast forward to last week, Kendra came to visit our new baby and Lani knew who she was the second she walked in the door! Lani can be a bit nutty, so I fully expected her to bark and growl at Kendra, which is typical of Lani with strangers. I was blown away by how well she did and how she remembered her! So if that is loyalty then I stand corrected.
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