Loose leash training a shikoku!
Hi Everyone,
I haven't been on for a while and I'm sure there are quite a few new members who don't know me . . . I'll get around to intoducing myself again soon :)
Right now tho I have a question for Shikoku dog owners/ and anyone else who has any advice.
How many of you have loose leash trained your Shikoku dog/ Nihon ken successfully. How long did it take you? Any details on methods would be great :p
I've been trying to loose leash train Panda for some time now and we are still having difficulties. I've been working with a positive reinforcement based trainer, so I know I'm doing some things right, I was just hoping for a little inspuration.
Please tell all!!
I haven't been on for a while and I'm sure there are quite a few new members who don't know me . . . I'll get around to intoducing myself again soon :)
Right now tho I have a question for Shikoku dog owners/ and anyone else who has any advice.
How many of you have loose leash trained your Shikoku dog/ Nihon ken successfully. How long did it take you? Any details on methods would be great :p
I've been trying to loose leash train Panda for some time now and we are still having difficulties. I've been working with a positive reinforcement based trainer, so I know I'm doing some things right, I was just hoping for a little inspuration.
Please tell all!!
Comments
what do you mean by "loose leash training"? Walking on a loose leash?
I wasn't sure what you were aiming for so I didn't answer.
That being said, I either ask my dogs to "heel" and they are expected to stay in heel position. And I am very particular that they do it correctly (ie, obedience ring style). Or I let them go to the end of the leash (but it doesn't have to be loose, then can pull "a little bit"). Sometimes they do both heeling and end of the leash walking within the same outdoor walking period.
We used positive reinforcement for this; we took a wooden kitchen spoon (like this) and rubbed peanut butter on it (or any soft stick treat - maybe cheese could work too). We then took Loa's leash and attached it to our belt on the left side (used a carabiner for that) , this allowed us to have our hands free. We took the wooden spoon with our left hand and started walking her and offered her a lick of the spoon when she was in the right "area" on our left side (in our case this meant her head was next to our hip).
Once she understood that she needed to be in that area to get a tasty treat when then started treating her with a lick of the spoon every 2 steps, then 4 steps, then 6... Once we felt sh understood what we were asking of her we started to randomly give her a treat (spoon lick) while she was in the right "area".
Next we added some negative punishment for when she went out in front of us. For this we would simply turn and walk back the other way when she walked out in front (out of the "area"), with the object of maximizing the positive reinforcement.
So, it went like this: treat Loa every few steps when she is in the correct "area" (next to us, on the left), when she pulled out in front and the leash got tight we would turn and walk the other direction, treating her when she was back in the correct position (going the other direction now tho). We didn't say anything during this activity, we let the treats and redirection do all the "talking" for us.
She got it, and it has stuck with her tho we have been kinda lax in continuing the work and she has slipped back into pulling at times... But at sight of the wooden spoon she knows just what to do. Loa LOVES food. LOL
----
This is what I have done with Koshi,...I trained her with a prong collar & a treat bag on walks ,also using the heel command. I had a treat bag around my waist with a good supply very very small (soft) treats. I walked with Koshi on my left side and the lead in my right hand. To start ,.I ALWAYS 's had a treat in my left hand which was down at my side in front of the her nose. Walk with your pup saying heel as she walks by your side give her treats while she does this. It comes very quickly but the key is,in the beginning ,was to give her an almost constant flow of treats . As time went by I gave less & less treats But I kept giving the heel command. If she wanted to pull she would feel the prong collar pinch . At that moment I would give the heel command as she resumed walking by my side I would reward with the treat.
Over time & cosistant practice she should learn that walking by your side is what you want.
Others may have have differing & various methods but this is what worked for me . :)
I was wondering how you let your dog know that you want "heel" opposed to them pulling a little?
@Brad- Thanks for all the details on training! That sounds like a great method :) I think I'm already doing some of the same things, it's just hard because Panda becomes less food, and toy motivated as soon as we walk outside. She's pretty consistent indoors if she's hungry/ or wants to play tug. (I use the tug toy also as a reward for staying at my side when she's more playful than hungry.)
@Dave- Thanks for the advice! I wouldn't use a prong collar myself since I've decided to use mostly positive reinforcement, but I like hearing what methods have worked for everyone. It gives me a little more confidence that eventually I'll have Panda loose leash trained too :)
Oh, I just thought of another question for everyone. Do you expect a loose leash when you go on hikes? . . . and for more formal walks where you're expecting a more strict "heel', how long do you usually do that?
With Panda I'm finding it really difficult because she will stop being interested in treats or toys as soon as we leave my house's driveway. She has very little focus and gets distracted by a person, car, noise, smell . . . etc. And she will just stand there ignoring me and sniffing the air. I've tried changing directions when she does this but as soon as she starts going in the direction that I'm going she moves ahead again . . . usually in these instances she doesn't care about toys, or treats. The whole walk ends up feeling a little like holding a ping pong ball. I'm not sure how long I should walk her if our whole walk is like this. The trainer always says that if she's not paying attention to me, its because we're in an environment with too many distractions, and I need to work her more in the backyard or something. The problem is that it feels like we're not progressing. She'll do a very nice "heel" when she's hungry and we're not outside, but it feels like we're not getting much beyond that in our loose leash training now :(
OK, Sorry, I'm done complaining :p
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/teaching-dogs-pull-leash
For me, I don't really care which side he walks on, as long as he's not attempting to drag me. So I'd go for a nice long walk with him on a short leash [ 3 feet ] & treat him when he walked beside me loosely. If he started to pull, I would simply stop walking & call him to come back to me. When he came back, I'd have him "sit," treat & say "Let's go!" & continue the walk.
It was super cute, as like Loa, he soon figured out when he walks beside me properly, he gets treats! He's start looking up at me every few minutes to see if I was going to treat him lol
The other day I walked him a good 30 minutes & freaked out halfway through...I'd realized it felt like I wasn't walking anything & thought he might've escaped & I was dragging an empty leash! ut when I looked down, there he was lol
----
If she's not focusing on you, try training BEFORE her meal when you know she's hungry. If she's hungry, she's not going to pass up the treats you have! Also, make sure the treats are something extra-yummy. [ Wraith goes berserk for Merrick's Lamb Filets, he'll do anything for them lol ]
You might have to feed her a meal a day this way, & continue to do it until it becomes "habbit."
[ I love the "walking a ping-pong ball expression BTW! I know how you feel! LOL ] ~
Koshi was exactly the same way until I discovered the silver bullet.........................hot dogs . I totally hated handling wet cold hot dogs but they worked like a charm! Just give them a try .Koshi is super picky & lost interest in all treats after 10 minutes , but hot dogs she can't get enough of.
First, I am not a fan (at least with hunting breeds with high drive, like NK) in making them walk on a loose leash all the time while letting them sniff around and get excited by what they smell. I think it is very hard for that high drive dog to not want to pull a little bit. So, if I am letting my dogs sniff around while walking, I expect that they will pull slightly but I do not let them pull REALLY hard. One of the ways I keep them in check is that I randomly tell them to sit or down even while they are walking ahead (usually on a flexi leash or very long lead). Both of them are very good at it now and will drop on command. Stops the pulling while they calm down. My release from everything (ie, heel position, down stay, etc) is "ok".
Now, when I do expect loose leash walking, I expect them to stay in heel position, sit when I stop, vary their pace with my pace, turn when I turn, all the time with a loose leash and in proper position. NO SNIFFING allowed. I find, at least with my two, that when I do this, they are in "working" mode and can tune out a lot of the exciting smells that are out there.
As far as training to heel. The best place to start is in your house, with the least amount of distractions. And like Osy said, with the MOST yummy treats possible and a clicker. I do many short sessions (<5 min) throughout the day with puppies/young dogs. After they have the idea inside, I move to a very quiet nondistracting area in my yard. Practice the same pattern (w/ treats and clicker). Then I move to a bit more distracting area in the yard. Eventually you can go to really distracting areas and they have been trained to focus on you. But you have to train it bit by bit and don't expect perfection from a puppy immediately in a very distracting environment. I also make it a game when walking through the yard an ask Sachi to heel for about 3 yards (no leash on). Lots of pats and rewards.
I do use a bit of negative reinforcement too, usually with a "aht" noise when they do something wrong. Or a tug on the leash (they are 99% of the time in flat collars).
Now, Kuma, who is a MAJOR ground hog hunter, can pull like a banshee when we first start out on walks on our farm (he KNOWS where each and every ground hog hole is). So I often make him heel for the 1st five or 10 minutes. It seems to calm him down (remember, I don't allow sniffing during this time). Then I give the "ok" command and he can go out to the end of the flexi leash. He still pulls some because of his drive, but not as bad as if I let him walk up ahead when we were just starting out. Interestingly, away from home he pulls MUCH less (I think it is because he know around home there is good hunting for ground hogs).
Sorry for the book!
I am not strict about pulling, as long as they aren't like choking themselves pulling me so hard. On hikes, due to the technical terrain and narrow trails around here, I actually prefer the dogs to be out in front on a bungee line than next to me or behind me. Also for trail running, having the (leashed) dogs out in front of me is a must.
----
I live in PA (Keystone state) and there are some very steep and very rocky trails in this state! I find that having them ahead of me going up hill is a big bonus (and a slight pulling from them is not bad). However, I find that when I am going down a very steep and technical section, I put them in a sit stay and get down (or at least as far as the leash will let me) and then give the "ok" release. Once the dog is in front of me, but if we are still in the steep section, I give the sit command before he reaches the end of the line and he sits and waits again until I proceed down and ahead. I don't want pulling on steep downhill sections as I don't want to fall myself. Kuma is very obedient in that regard and is an excellent hiking companion. I haven't tried Sachi on some of these technical trails, but she is also very obedient on walks around our farm.
....now if she would just grow out of the car sickness, she could go to some of the neat hiking places with us!
I have also taught the "right" and "left" for when I am trail running on a trail that splits - I have had a few times when they went one direction and I wen the other! LOL ... So, teaching them left and right was a great addition. It was easy too, I just yelled "LEFT" or "RIGHT" when ever I changed direction or the path split - over time they associated the word with the direction and now I can give the command proactively. It was totally organic.
Oh, the car sick thing, man does it suck with those Akashima females! Ahi was horrible, it wasn't until she started going to daycare and associated the ride with a good thing (going to daycare) that she stopped. Now she is a GREAT traveler (one of the best). Loa, on the other hand, never got car sick - which was a shock and a treat for us.
We deal with car sickness in our other breeds too: Kumi (Kai) and Masha (CO) both get car sick. :oT
----
I used to do the "wait" command like you did with my huskies, but I found that Kuma is so obedient, that in a full run, if you command "sit" or "down" (at least if he knows he is on a long line vs off leash!!), he will immediately do the command. Same with Sachi. We went on 1 hike where there are 40+ named waterfalls within a 7 mile hike (so lots of downward trails and then lots of up ward trails). This trail also had lots of blind curves, wet stones (obviously, next to waterfalls) and the sitting and staying while I went down was VERY helpful!!
Edited to add: this is Ricketts Glen State Park in NE PA
@Jessika- Thanks for the web link. It really lays everything out very simply :) I think that will help me a little, plus it reminded me to never let her pull to get somewhere 100%!!!
@Osy- Wraith sounds super cute and very attentive for such a youngster! I'm a little jealous :p I think I will try switching my treats to something a little yummier (I'll have to try Merrick's Lamb Filets) and hopefully that will help :)
@Dave-I wish there were a miracle treat that she would be crazy about. I did try hot dogs in the past, but maybe I need to try a different brand or maybe I'll try beef hot dogs instead of chicken.
@Brad- cool! I like the left and right command. I'll have to try that eventually!
Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'll keep you guys posted on my progress!
I have a few things to add to the excellent suggestions above.
1. Continue to experiment with treats and don't be afraid to let Panda get a little hungry. Some trainers would say that dogs shouldn't ever get their meals in bowls - that is wasted calories that could be used towards a training opportunity! Play the 'get it' game to enhance name recognition and get her more interested in checking in with you. Say her name and when she looks your way say 'get it!' and toss a treat a few feet away to either side of you. Believe it or not, tracking down a moving treat that is then hidden in some grass is more interesting to some dogs than just taking it from your hand.
2. The wooden spoon method is great for some situations but can be messy when very hot outside and it is also difficult to 'reload' the spoon in some scenarios. An alternative is to teach Panda to target your hand. Easy to do and (hopefully) you always have your hand with you! It's also a great technique to use when you walk more than one dog at once.
3. Definitely allow her some breaks on a long line and keep the work short and interesting. Guska has minimal interest in treats or food outdoors, so often times his reward was to romp around on the long line. If he could display some self control for a while, he got to run and snoop.
4. Practice in a safe enclosed area off leash. She can't pull if there is no leash. Use the targets, toys, treats, body language etc. to guide her into position. Use a curb or fence to provide a boundary that limits lateral excursion at first and then move away from it as she improves.
5. Put some hunting/exploratory behaviors on cue. I'm serious -this seems counterintuitive, but it can really be effective. It's like training a loudmouth dog to bark on command. You reward them for barking when you ask and the rest of the time you don't ask. Pretty soon, they are rather quiet since the payoff is only when they do it on cue. The Trio discovered a raccoon in a culvert ONE time and since finding a raccoon is REALLY COOL they have taken it upon themselves to check all culverts and drains. So, to prevent them from becoming completely obsessive and dragging me over to each and every culvert, I will periodically demand that they "Check It!" and we all run over to inspect one. I get very enthusiastic about this and then we continue our walk. For other drains we see, I simply reinforce the "On By!" command. If you see a pile of brush or a hole that looks pretty interesting, it probably is! Tell Panda to go inspect it BEFORE she succeeds in dragging you over there!
6. I like to make a distinction between a formal heel ("Heel") and just walking around ("Let's Go"). For just walking around on a loose leash, I don't really care where the dog is, as long as they don't pull. They can be on either side, but they may not cross in front of me. I don't say anything when they screw up. I just stop with the leash held right at the center of my body. Initially you'll also need to change direction frequently to keep her engaged. As people, we tend to walk along quite boringly...in a straight line, right down the sidewalk. Instead do U-turns and about-turns, find some trees or posts to do a figure-8 around, switch sides of the street often, deviate into the ditch, trot backwards and have her come/front. Essentially make it a game for her to stay next to you. One of the best ways to deal with a forging dog is to do frequent U-turns. Don't warn her either - walk right into her if you must. She needs to take responsibility for staying out of your way and remain at your side.
7. Electric collars aside, don't hesitate to experiment with different equipment. I really feel that people get too hung up about equipment. Instead of thinking that there is 'bad equipment', just believe that there is 'bad technique with equipment' and that dog training should be results based. If you get great results with a front-clip harness, use it! If you get great results with a halter, use it! If you get great results with a prong, use it! What I prefer to do with additional equipment is use it as backup. So for instance if I was using a halter on a dog, I would also have a collar on the dog. Each would have a leash attached (the halter would have a very light leash with a small snap on it). The dog would get feedback with the regular collar first and if I needed backup, I would engage the halter. This would make it easy to 'lighten up' the dog, particularly if the dog was quite large and unruly, and make it easy to eventually phase out the halter.
It's sort of like carrying a dressage whip to reinforce the leg. First you ask the horse with your subtle seat and leg to move forward. If response is inadequate, use more insistent leg and add some vocal encouragement. If horse still hangs back, he gets a whack with the whip just behind your leg. Make this a very predictable progression. Then the next time you ask he'll think to himself, I know what's coming, I'd better scoot. Soon you have a horse that will go forward with barely perceptible aids.
8. Teach her 'wait'. It's one of the most useful commands. Like Kris and Brad, I use directionals in some situations, except I say Gee and Haw for 'right' and 'left' respectively. And on some steep downhill trails, I prefer that the dogs actually be behind me (that may be because there are three of them!). That way if I tumble, I won't fall on them and there is never the chance that they will pull me down. It's easy to teach and I practice on staircases. Going uphill, it's OK that they are in front. Sometimes the trails are narrow and we must form some sort of single file configuration!
Good luck and have fun!
Last time I posted I was having considerable trouble loose leash training Panda, so I thought I'd give a little update. I think we're progressing pretty well. I had to lower my expectations a little and just be more patient and consistent. She's been getting longer walks and we do intervals of jogging, walking at a heel (using a toy or treats), and walking letting her sniff ahead and pull a little (I tell her : OK, go sniff). Taking her on longer walks has helped quite a bit because it keeps her energy level down, so she's just doesn't pull as much. Walking is still difficult at times because she remembers where every dog lives and will want to pull towards those houses every time (she has high hopes that some dog will come out to play with her). She knows where the pet goose lives and wants to play/eat it every time we pass it's yard. It helps that during the weekdays we have to take our walks (before and after work) between 4:30 and 5:30 in the morning, and 5 or 6pm at night, so luckily not too many people and dogs are outside at those times.
For hikes I've been using a long line when possible and letting her sniff a lot ahead and behind us on the trail. I feel like that the long line gives her a better sense of freedom, so maybe if she gets off leash, she won't automatically charge off ahead never to be seen again
Also, I thought I'd mention that I had her spayed at 8 months old when I decided that I won't be breeding her. I know a lot of people on this forum have breeding plans for their Shikoku, and I even contemplated it for a while, but I have come to the conclusion that 1) I don't have enough time, 2) I'm not ready to pay for all the physical examinations, 3) I know her bloodlines won't be lost. Other people have pups from some of the same lines and I know they have breeding plans.
Anyways, back to leash training: I'm not sure if spaying her might have affected her behavior during walks, but some trainers have told me that it does.
I also want to add that Panda's such a good girl now. She's so smart, playful, and I feel like all the training has helped us communicate/bond . . . I love to watch her play with other dogs
I am so grateful that I didn't subject myself to a Shikoku puppy and Cane Corso puppy at the same time like I originally was planning!!! I think I would have had a nervous breakdown
Sounds like Panda is coming around great. She's only a puppy still. In a year or two, you will look at her very proud. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for the update! It sounds like Panda is doing well. It sounds like her pulling is more manageable and not all the time. Even with my two, there are times that they pull like banshees and other times where they heel like well trained obedience dogs. :-) So it is not 100% loose leash for me all the time either. I think that it is just that way with many Spitz breeds (or at least Shikoku and Siberians, from my experience).
I agree that the training together really allows you to bond well with your dog. And unlike many Siberians I had, my Shikoku relish training and really really want to please me. Sounds like Panda might be that way too.
She is really pretty, you should post some of the photos you have on facebook of her. It is striking how similar the Akashima Kuma offspring look. :-)
Kris
Snf
I think if we work more on the heeling part it may help him in general, but I woujld like there to be something in between pulling like crazy and heeling....Esp. given the fact that he's only 7 mos. old and will get bigger...
@StaticNFuzz- Interesting . . . I think I might try out the "Go Go", and "slow" commands. I haven't had much luck with the "Right"& "Left", but I also haven't really worked much on them. I've definitely found that Panda does better with short durations of heel otherwise she gets tired of the toy/treat and just gets bored with training.
@Shibamistress - Oskar sound a lot like Panda during leash training
Have you tried a head halter? I think it's called a gentle leader. Panda really hates anything on her face, so I didn't even try a gentle leader. The only solution I've found for the excited pulling is to change direction, do short heel work sessions, ask for some sits and downs anything to get them out of that over-excited pulling, make it a fun game to follow you by playing tug, with a toy, food treat etc. Sometimes we jog past areas where I know she would be pulling like crazy if we were walking. I try also if possible to tire her out a little before the walk(pretty much impossible for a Shikoku, but I try anyway). We often play tug, fetch with some obedience training mixed in which will expend a little energy. Then I usually try to wait for her to calm down from the play session before going on our walk.
She's now getting to the point where she pulls very little during our (sidewalk) walks around the neighborhood as long as she doesn't see too many dogs and people. Maybe these walks are less exciting now that we do them all the time, or maybe it's just that she's older (a little over 10 months) and slightly less excitable.
I have it quite a bit easier than you though because Panda is only around 30lbs and not going to get much bigger, so I still have the option of just picking her up and carrying her with me for a short distance, which I still do once in a while :-)