the multi-dog household
I started thinking about this--perhaps we could share stories of how we handle and manage multiple dog packs? I thought about this when Brad was telling stories about his pack in the Dunbar thread about how dogs "rank" themselves....and I find it very interesting, and incredibly useful, to hear about how people manage their dogs, esp. if you have more than two....
So as most of you know, I have three dogs, two reactive Shibas and an AA pup. I've had a lot of problems with the Shibas, who tried to kill each other. I now manage them by keeping the two Shibas separate most of the time (I say most, because occasionally there are slips, and I've also recently been walking the Shibas together). My male Shiba is also not allowed near my puppy.
The background to my story and my current efforts working with my Shibas are here (from the Shiba side): http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6371&page=1#Item_18
Basically, I've called in a behavioralist (thanks for the recs, Brad) and I've begun the long slow work of trying to condition them to tolerate other dogs. Bel does tolerate other dogs, Toby not so much. I've also made an appointment to take Bel to a different vet, one who is familiar with anxiety in dogs and is willing to prescribe anti-anxiety meds. (my current vets are not willing to do this). The behavioralist felt that while we could, and should, work with teaching calming behaviors to both dogs, it would be much easier to teach Bel if she were not so anxious (she was at her worst when the behavioralist visited, because Bel is very afraid of people), and I agreed. It's something I've long been meaning to do with Bel, because while she's much better now that she's properly treated for hypothyroidism, she still has odd....lapses? Almost fugue states, where she doesn't seem to recognize people, and where her little brain really seems to be turned off. I'm hoping a vet familiar with these issues will help us.
anyway, I have an extreme situation: two reactive, hypothyroid Shibas, and thankfully, a calm, easy going third dog. But I'd be interested in hearing how other people manage and deal with issues that arise with multiple dogs.
So as most of you know, I have three dogs, two reactive Shibas and an AA pup. I've had a lot of problems with the Shibas, who tried to kill each other. I now manage them by keeping the two Shibas separate most of the time (I say most, because occasionally there are slips, and I've also recently been walking the Shibas together). My male Shiba is also not allowed near my puppy.
The background to my story and my current efforts working with my Shibas are here (from the Shiba side): http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=6371&page=1#Item_18
Basically, I've called in a behavioralist (thanks for the recs, Brad) and I've begun the long slow work of trying to condition them to tolerate other dogs. Bel does tolerate other dogs, Toby not so much. I've also made an appointment to take Bel to a different vet, one who is familiar with anxiety in dogs and is willing to prescribe anti-anxiety meds. (my current vets are not willing to do this). The behavioralist felt that while we could, and should, work with teaching calming behaviors to both dogs, it would be much easier to teach Bel if she were not so anxious (she was at her worst when the behavioralist visited, because Bel is very afraid of people), and I agreed. It's something I've long been meaning to do with Bel, because while she's much better now that she's properly treated for hypothyroidism, she still has odd....lapses? Almost fugue states, where she doesn't seem to recognize people, and where her little brain really seems to be turned off. I'm hoping a vet familiar with these issues will help us.
anyway, I have an extreme situation: two reactive, hypothyroid Shibas, and thankfully, a calm, easy going third dog. But I'd be interested in hearing how other people manage and deal with issues that arise with multiple dogs.
Comments
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A quick aside on the meds. I know there is sometimes a stigma about the use of anti-anxiety meds and they are certainly over-prescribed for children. But, they can be a valuable tool when dealing with high anxiety dogs. Joey has some anxiety/fear/odd issues that manifested themselves in strange ways when he was younger. I hired a behaviorist (also at Brad's suggestion, thanks Brad!) who prescribed a behavior modification program. We worked diligently on the prescribed exercises, but Joey seemed to be getting worse. So in consultation with the behaviorist and our trusted vet, Joey was put on Reconsile (Prozac for dogs). These medications aren't cures. They don't eliminate anxiety, they are mood stabilizers. It worked extremely well for Joey. It didn't stop him from getting anxious or fearful, it prevented the those responses from being so extreme that we couldn't accomplish any training. Used in that manner (as a way to keep your dog below threshold so you can train their fear and anxious responses away) meds can be very effective.
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As for management, I have a very hands off style with my dogs. I have come to believe that dogs are far better at establishing boundaries with each other than we are at establishing boundaries for them. When introducing a new dog, Joey needs some very careful management because he doesn't respect boundaries during high periods of arousal. So I do my best to keep the excitement down, limit access to high value items, etc. If Joey gets a bit too excited, I'll interrupt him and put him in a down-stay for a minute or so to calm him down which seems to work really well.
When I'm out of the house, the dogs are all separated. This is less about any worry I have over scuffles and more about my worry that one of the boys may vomit and Lucy will eat it. That would be a nightmare for her IBD issue. Also related to Lucy's IBD issue is some resource guarding. Lucy guards everything related to feeding time. She guards the entire kitchen while I'm preparing meals if I let her. So she is crated for feeding. Joey is also crated for feeding, but that has more to do with me wanting to keep him in the kitchen while I use a cap gun to desensitize Tyson than it has to do with any issues. Before I started that training, Joey and Tyson would eat out and Tyson would wait patiently for Joey to finish eating before going to lick his bowl.
I have done some dog-sitter jobs when I were younger so our schips really were used to other dogs. Our male gets along with other males very good (when girls isn't in season). Our first female schipperke, Hani the Queen, haven't ever been best buddy to Ife. She stands her but don't want to play with Ife or let Ife too close to her. But with other three, Ife is playing and wrestiling. In fact, the youngest Schip has some Kai behaviour
What about NK and a cat? Have someone had problems?
We haven't. Ife loves her little kitten LOL. I took Rusina in spring and it was love at the first sight. It went so far that Ife started to nurse it. I think I have to get Ife dog pal and to Rusina cat pal. Ife's acting sometimes like a cat. And the cat like a dog. Ife has never fetched but believe it or not, Rusina is fetching her paperball and even brings it back to me when I throw it.
They get crated separately, but their crates are right next to each other. Kratos will sleep in bed with us on most nights, and this weekend we had a trial period where Mitsu slept in bed too. It actually worked out great. (We keep the bedroom door shut so she doesn't roam around, but she stays in bed pretty well.)
We saw some regression in training from Kratos when we brought Mitsu home - I'm not sure if that's the "big brother" syndrome or what - but we were able to take care of that by giving more training time to Kratos. Now he's back to where he was.
We do, however, have trouble walking them together. Loose leash training goes out the window and they become a pulling mess. We've tried various tactics - gentle leader (for Kratos) but he tried to break his neck rather than curb his behavior, treats, etc. Separately, though, they both do well. We just talked to our trainer about it and she said we should try to walk ahead of the dogs and once they learn their place is "behind" us on group walks, they should calm down. I'm not sure if that'll work, but we're open to trying whatever may help. We don't *have* to walk together, but we'd really like to.
When we move into a house, which may be as soon as this coming summer, we will most likely add one more to our pack, so I've been very focused on socializing Mitsu with other dogs - through playdates and through doggy daycare, which she just started. I'm hoping adding one more will be as smooth as it was to add Mitsu, but Mitsu can be a bit of a spoiled brat so we will see.
OH. I will say that we caught Mitsu attempt to hump Kratos the other day, which was kind of funny because she's so small and he's so large. Kratos is not very good at standing up to her (she will stand up to him no problem), so I gave her a brief "eh eh" (no) and she stopped right away.
ETA: We also have a cat that gets along well with Kratos, but would sometimes try to bully him. She had a rude awakening when Mitsu came home. They get along fine, but Mitsu will often try to play too roughly with her. The cat has plenty of safe spaces, though, and sometimes they can be very calm together. Play time just needs to be supervised.
In '08 we brought home Himiko; a nine week old Shikoku puppy. Things were alright for a while. Miko came to us in April, and other than a couple snags the got along alright.
In November, Moto died in his accident (a story I have shared here enough times). At this time Piglet (who had since been CGC and therapy certified) started to present some issues that we would later discover were symptoms of the brain tumor. Her behavior became erratic. She stopped recognizing people she knew and loved. Incidents that in the past would have elicited a growl or a warning snap would instead get an attack. It was heartbreaking and frankly scary. Actually Dave and Barbara met Piglet when she was first showing some symptoms. At this point my house was filled with baby gates. Piglet was kept by my side constantly because I was the only person she recognized consistently. Miko was kept separate from her except for on walks. Walks were the only time she was herself. It was an incredibly stressful time in my house. I was on constant guard. I wouldn't let people into my home whose judgment I didn't trust. I was constantly worried about Piglet and Jason (my husband, she sometimes wouldn't recognize him and would try to protect me from him). I even considered renting an apartment for me and Piglet until she was ready to pass on. But eventually the tumor was so bad we had no choice she needed to be PTS.
As stressful as it was, Miko adored Piglet. She still prefers the company of pit bulls and mastiffs. So only a few weeks after Piglet passed away, we agreed to take in what was supposed to be a foster : Ruby. So many people tell me that Piglet sent Ruby to me as a gift. And when you meet her, you cannot help but agree. She meshed into my family so perfectly. For god's safe the cats love her.
In June, Hilo came to live with us. The first week we had to monitor them closely just because their personalities and energy levels are all so different. But in just about a weeks time they all became very close friends. Though I would say that Ruby is the linchpin that holds the family together. She is who Miko turns to for play. She is who Hilo turns to for play. When Hilo first moved here he was pretty stressed. It was a big adjustment for him coming from New Mexico, with 16 or so other dogs and just two people, then coming to the suburbs of RI. He took to it well. But you could see he would turn to Ruby for comfort. She does that for everyone of all species.
Talk about a pretty magical dog.
But the reason I am sharing this is to show how dramatically things can contrast in a multidog home. And how many different factors there are; chemistry, health, location (the whole dynamic of my group changed when we moved). Sharing your home with multiple dogs is one of the single most rewarding experiences you can have. However it certainly isn't for everyone. There is a tremendous level of commitment and energy that needs to be put in to make it work.
Hopefully someone can get something useful from my experiences.
When Haru was 9 months old, Baron arrived. He was around 6 weeks old when he arrived, and needed a lot of care. Haru adjusted well, and the two of them would play together all day long. Baron took a lot of time to toilet train, he was a damn fire truck. He was a bit of a whiner as well, and still is. Haru is more of a stoic animal. The two of them got on with out too many kinks. The only one I can remember is Haru guarding her food, but that was sorted out pretty easily. Baron's a bit of a troublemaker, and a lot of times Haru plays his happy accomplice. I can leave these two together all day every day and never have any problems.
Everything was moving along pretty smoothly, and then Momo arrived. She was a 3 year old Kishu that had been raised with very little socialization, and no training. She was an outdoor dog, and lived on a chain. The adjustment to living indoors, and with two other dogs was a big change for her. She has a habit of using her teeth for everything. When I picked her up at the airport she was covered in blood and had nearly chewed her way out of her crate, losing several teeth in the process. She proceeded to destroy a few doors/doorways/walls in my last house. She does not communicate well with other dogs, her greeting is a growl/pounce/bite.
Amazingly enough, Momo adjusted pretty well to living indoors, and didn't require too much work to toilet train etc. She also managed to fit in with the other 2 dogs after several days of slow meet/greets. She and Haru got on the best at first, but soon she and Baron became play buddies. Baron still adores her, loves to play with her, and follows her everywhere. Relations between Haru and Momo went south as they both went into heat, and though afterwards I was able to keep all three dogs together again for a while, the next round of heats started, and the increased tension, and us being busy with our move led me to separate Momo.
After moving into our new house, I built an outdoor kennel, and the dogs spend most of their time outdoors now. Baron and Haru are great together as usual, but Momo can't really be left alone with either of them. At the moment I can't even walk her with Haru as she'll jump her any chance she gets. She's also started getting snappy with Baron, so she's in her own section of the kennel now.
Haru hasn't come into heat yet, and Momo just came out of hers a bit ago, so I think that is still lingering. Momo is very aggressive toward dogs she does not live with, and it's actually pretty amazing that she did this well with Baron and Haru. I think going into heat sends her over the top though, and she starts to get snappy with them as well.
Baron's come through this all pretty much the same. He's happy go lucky and wants to play with everyone. As long as he's not left alone by himself he's great. He loves the companionship of other dogs. Haru doesn't really seem to care if she's with other dogs, or alone. She'd just rather be around her people. For a while she was getting rather stressed with Momo always breathing down her neck, but now that they're not around each other much, she's more at ease. That being said Haru seemed to adjust to being more puppy like in behavior after Momo arrived.
So at the moment I'm managing my dogs. It's not perfect, but not terribly inconvenient. My advice to anyone preparing to have multiple dogs, would be to be aware of the fact that things may not work out, and it's a good idea to prepare for that possibility. I know if I had had these dog issues in the apartment I lived in a while ago, I would have been shit out of luck with no way to manage the situation. At least now with more space, it's not the issue it would have been in the past.
I still work with my dogs everyday, and hopefully we'll keep moving toward a nice happy house for all.
If I had to break our dog-management down in to a simplified general statement, it would be this:
We group dogs into group-sizes based on the space we keep them in and try our best to mix the groups so no dogs get accustom to always being with any one dog, while catering to each dog individually to the best of or abilities. We take a "hands off" approach to the social politics and only intervene when we feel things are moving toward violence.
We expect our dogs to be social and to resolve conflicts peacefully via whatever protocol they subscribe to, we do not force them into any specific social paradigm - tho we will intervene if we feel they are not resolving things peacefully. I guess we are kinda like the police. We do our best to set them up to succeed within those expectations.
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If I really admit it to myself, I would have to say that managing such a zoo is pretty challenging. It comes naturally to me and I enjoy it so much, so it doesn't necessarily feel difficult, but I know how much effort it takes. I can't imagine how hard my husband has to try to keep the peace around here, because his instinctive understanding of the dogs is less acute than mine. He doesn't always know what the dogs are communicating, so it's definitely not something everyone else just "feels" like I do.
Our philosophy now is pretty solid, I believe. All 3 dogs are together all the time at home, except my oldest eats by himself because he doesn't eat as fast as the others. They all sleep un-crated in the same area at night, they all share one big yard when they're out, they all sleep on the couch together when I'm surfing the forum
On cats: I think it really depends on the cat, not the dog. One of our cats strides into a room like he owns it, rubbing his chin on the dogs as he walks by. The dogs barely notice him most times, but sometimes they groom each other or wrestle and play-chase. The other cat acts like a wild animal slinking along the wall trying to be stealthy, until she's noticed and the dogs chase her like she's prey. If she would confidently assert her presence, the dogs would practically ignore her but she has to egg them on like a brat. She spends most of her time upstairs where the dogs aren't allowed, so she's usually not a problem.
Managing more than a couple animals is most definitely an art, not a science! Whenever the situation changes, for whatever reason, new techniques need to be applied to keep everything harmonious.
Do I have be "fair" to all the dogs? Meaning making sure they are all getting the same sort of treatment, or would dogs be happier in a set routine? Mostly I'm thinking about who gets to sleep upstairs in the bedroom with us. It used to be sometimes Toby, sometimes Bel, and even then I noticed they seemed confused if we changed up who got to be up there. Then we got Oskar, and he's slept up there since he was a puppy since he needed to go out so often, and since he's up there, so is Bel.
Now I need to keep Bel crated at night (related to her upcoming knee surgery) and the crate is downstairs, so I left her and Oskar (in his giant crate) downstairs last night and took Toby up (he was initially confused, but then delighted). Oskar and Bel acted as if the world had come to an end, and they were being sorely mistreated. Now I'm making myself crazy thinking it hasn't been fair to Toby to never let him sleep upstairs since Oskar came, but then on the other hand, they have a routine, and now it's disturbed, and poor Oskar has never not slept in the bedroom....
Probably I am making something out nothing, and that for people who have a lot of dogs, certainly some of them get privileges that others don't (like who gets to go for a ride, or sleep with the humans, or whatever). Yesterday was a rough day trying to manage Bel's problems and Toby looking like he is developing allergies, and I think I felt overwhelmed, but what do you all think? How do you manage who gets to do "special" things?
This is the case everything a female come sin season, she is restricted due to being in heat - that's for her own good, and the good of the all the dogs, but one could argue that is not fair that she has to be separated simply due to being in heat... But it's for all of the dog's own good, and so it must be done.
Also, I think you may be being a bit too anthropomorphic here. They may be upset you left them alone, but they are probably not making the sleeping arrangement connection.
It's been proven that dogs do have a sense of what is fair and what is not fair, but, from my experience, I do not think they can judge fairness based on complex situations.
In your example above, they may feel it is unfair you are taking Toby (somewhere) and not them, but I don't think it goes any further than that.. Like I don't think they are thinking "it's not fair Toby gets to sleep with mom and not us", I think they are thinking more like "hey, where is Toby going without us? Not fair!"...
I hope this makes sense and helps.
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I think that so long as you keep a routine, even if each dog has a totally different one, there will be no fuss. If you feel bad for the one dog that's not getting "special" treatment, then make it up to that pup by doing/giving something special for that pup (like a chew toy or extra playtime with you). though personally I feel that that would be to ease your own mind more than making the dog feel less special.
I worried about special treatment for dogs until I read "Feeling Outnumbered: How to manage a multidog household" by Patricia McConnell where makes a point of saying that dogs should be treated as individuals.
I look at it like this. If we had kids and one wanted to take ballet and the other soccer I would see nothing wrong with them doing things differently.
@Jessica Ah! I have that book! I need to reread it! And I do think you're right....they are individuals, and have to get different treatment anyway.
Last night I left both Shibas downstairs, Bel crated, Toby not (though he got into Oskar's big crate on his own), and took Oskar up. that seemed to be the best way to handle this, because Oskar is so used to sleeping upstairs with us.
On a side note, but a funny one...last night I spent a lot of time cleaning the upstairs bathroom, including washing the floor. The dogs found this FASCINATING and kept wanting to be right there with me (read: in the way). So (total anthromorphizing here) I told my husband they were watching me and thinking "What is she doing? Cleaning? What's that? We've never seen that here!" Ha!