Kai Ken and Cats
I'm having a hard time telling if this is normal behavior, or if it's something I should be worried about. I have a 6 month old female Kai Ken (Mika), a Golden Retriever (Kaiya), and two cats. One of our cats is really friendly and playful with the dogs, Abbi, and the other one could care less about them, unless they have their nose in the wrong place or accidentally sit on her she pretty much ignores them, that's Spaz. When Mika was younger she would follow Abbi around and the cat would run and from one side of the room to another to get the pup to chase her, but at that age Abbi could easily outrun her, and it was cute. They would lay together and Abbi would rub up against her and lick her ears, and Mika would lick her ears back.
Now she's older and they still run and chase each other, the cat darts from different lttle hiding spots and runs right into her and then high tails it the other way and of course Mika follows in chase. The two cats even work as a team sometimes and Spaz will sit on a chair or perched somewhere and Abbi will run by where Spaz is and Spaz will give Mika a whack with her paw when she passes her, Mika falls for it every time. But now she can catch up to Abbi and grabs at her ears and pounces on her sometimes, she doesn't grab her face or throat with her mouth, just her ears. And sometimes when the cats walk by her she will suddenly pounce on them and try and hold them to the ground with her paws. And she's started staring at the cats, she watches them as they walk by, watches them when they eat, follows by their side when they walk, sometimes grabbing at their ears, and watches them when they sleep. She sits upright and stares at them whenever their within sight or make any movement. She's never once hurt them but her staring has me concerned, her sudden interest in the cats ever movement seems odd....
If they do get rough or if the chase gets out of hand she goes into a time out. In fact we try not to let her chase the cats at all. It's a bad habit. But the one cat instigates the chases and it doesn't work very well to put the cat in time out, I've tried. Mika's gotten to the point where if the cat runs by and she knows I'm watching her she won't chase the cat, but the second I turn around or get distracted there they both go.....
This is my first Kai, and she's VERY different compared to my Golden Retriever. I'm not sure what to expect from her so it's a learn as we go kind of thing. She's in obedience class right now and we're going to try Agility. Everyone in our class thinks she's just the most adorable ball of energy, they call her the little circus dog. When we first started teaching her to heel she would jump up and down with every step I took, she didn't walk beside me, she hopped, everyone except me thought it was funny. But she did wear herself out pretty quick hopping ten ten laps around the ring rather than just walking, so she slept all night when we got home. She's jumped up and grabbed treats right out of my hand before. She's one of the dominant girls in the group, she likes to try and assert herself, she's not affraid of anything. We had a Great Dane in our last class and of course the butt head challenged him right off the bat, barking and staring him down. She seems to use her eyes a lot to communicate, she stares at other dogs. There was an Australian Shepherd in class once and that dog seemed to be going crazy for no reason, it was barking and lunging randomly but we couldn't figure out what the problem was until I noticed the sneaky little Kai was staring her down in a very challenging manner, drove the Aussie nuts, and rightfuly so. I didn't notice it cause she usually barks..which is another reason the staring concerns me with the cats.
But anyway, is the cat thing anything to be worried about or are they just really good friends. Abbi is my sisters cat, and I would hate to have to tell her something bads happened to her cat, and it's my dogs fault.
The white cat is Spaz, and of course the dog is Mika. It's not a good picture but it's hard to catch them both still.
Now she's older and they still run and chase each other, the cat darts from different lttle hiding spots and runs right into her and then high tails it the other way and of course Mika follows in chase. The two cats even work as a team sometimes and Spaz will sit on a chair or perched somewhere and Abbi will run by where Spaz is and Spaz will give Mika a whack with her paw when she passes her, Mika falls for it every time. But now she can catch up to Abbi and grabs at her ears and pounces on her sometimes, she doesn't grab her face or throat with her mouth, just her ears. And sometimes when the cats walk by her she will suddenly pounce on them and try and hold them to the ground with her paws. And she's started staring at the cats, she watches them as they walk by, watches them when they eat, follows by their side when they walk, sometimes grabbing at their ears, and watches them when they sleep. She sits upright and stares at them whenever their within sight or make any movement. She's never once hurt them but her staring has me concerned, her sudden interest in the cats ever movement seems odd....
If they do get rough or if the chase gets out of hand she goes into a time out. In fact we try not to let her chase the cats at all. It's a bad habit. But the one cat instigates the chases and it doesn't work very well to put the cat in time out, I've tried. Mika's gotten to the point where if the cat runs by and she knows I'm watching her she won't chase the cat, but the second I turn around or get distracted there they both go.....
This is my first Kai, and she's VERY different compared to my Golden Retriever. I'm not sure what to expect from her so it's a learn as we go kind of thing. She's in obedience class right now and we're going to try Agility. Everyone in our class thinks she's just the most adorable ball of energy, they call her the little circus dog. When we first started teaching her to heel she would jump up and down with every step I took, she didn't walk beside me, she hopped, everyone except me thought it was funny. But she did wear herself out pretty quick hopping ten ten laps around the ring rather than just walking, so she slept all night when we got home. She's jumped up and grabbed treats right out of my hand before. She's one of the dominant girls in the group, she likes to try and assert herself, she's not affraid of anything. We had a Great Dane in our last class and of course the butt head challenged him right off the bat, barking and staring him down. She seems to use her eyes a lot to communicate, she stares at other dogs. There was an Australian Shepherd in class once and that dog seemed to be going crazy for no reason, it was barking and lunging randomly but we couldn't figure out what the problem was until I noticed the sneaky little Kai was staring her down in a very challenging manner, drove the Aussie nuts, and rightfuly so. I didn't notice it cause she usually barks..which is another reason the staring concerns me with the cats.
But anyway, is the cat thing anything to be worried about or are they just really good friends. Abbi is my sisters cat, and I would hate to have to tell her something bads happened to her cat, and it's my dogs fault.
The white cat is Spaz, and of course the dog is Mika. It's not a good picture but it's hard to catch them both still.
Comments
First, just to throw this out there before I address the real point...I'd hold off on agility training for at least another year. I'd be very surprised if you find an agility class that will accept you younger than 18 months old, but if you do it's best not to enter it. Young dogs have open growth plates and regular high impact exercise like agility can cause structural problems later in life.
Now, regarding the behavior with the cats. You need to consider that your Kai is a VERY different dog than your Golden Retriever. Golden's are bred to retrieve downed game. Their artificially selected instincts are to have a very soft mouth, and not to chase. Chasing game is a pain in the ass for hunters of small game. On the other hand, your Kai was bred to hunt large game. That means she comes from lines of dogs that were artificially selected to have a strong desire to chase, stalk, and catch or bay prey. Kai generally being large game hunters, are very likely to actually catch and kill small game if they can. Also, consider that your cats are small and furry and dart around from concealed cover to concealed cover, all things that mimic the behavior of prey animals in the wild.
So, to answer your question. Should you be concerned about Mika's behavior? Yes, absolutely you should be concerned about it. Between six and seven months old is when most hunters will begin training their dogs. This is the age where dogs are starting to reach social maturity and where their natural hunting instincts begin to become more apparent. You have an advantage in that Mika was raised with the cats and has some social boundaries established with them already. But, the staring intensity you describe is something you will observe at the beginning of a predatory "Fixed Action Pattern" (FAP). The prey FAP, as it's called, is a sequence of behaviors that predators exhibit while hunting. It starts with spotting prey (staring intensely), then stalking (continuing to stare while maneuvering into position), then chasing (self-explanatory), then catching (self-explanatory), then finally killing prey (you've probably observed your dog shaking a plush toy violently, that's the kill part of the prey FAP).
The behavior you described of Mika's sounds like she is practicing her prey FAP, but exercising enough restraint to cut it off before it finishes. In general, I would call that normal and healthy dog behavior; however, what you need to be concerned with is a phenomenon known as "predatory drift." (http://www.alldogsgym.com/content/view/378/). Briefly, predatory drift occurs when a dog forgets, due to instinctual triggers, that a friend is a friend and they treat them as prey.
So, do you need to worry so much you never let your dogs and cats interact? Absolutely not. But, I would NEVER allow them to together without your direct supervision. And, I would not allow Mika to practice her prey FAP with the cats even while supervised. Interrupt her when she's starring, before she starts to stalk and chase. Don't allow her to practice those behaviors with the cats ever, and you'll reduce your chances of her drifting with them as she matures and her drive to hunt intensifies.
Dave is very right about Kais being hunting dogs and having FAP's. Not sure if the Kai stare fits into that though. My female stares down other dogs as to play with their minds and drive them nuts. She's trying to get them to go after her so she can start a fight and not get into trouble because she will look like she's defending herself. It's a very rude behavior, but one that seems common amongst female Kais. I've asked a few people and theirs have shown the same behavior. She is probably trying to get a response out of your cat, like she wants it to freak out and run. Oh wait, that would start an FAP huh Dave?
I have conflicting opinions on dealing with this. I know Maymay's being a jerk when she stares at other dogs. She also stares down my 19 year old cat. But this is part of owning a Kai. It's a behavior that most breeders warn about. I don't want to train an inherent breed behavior out of her, but I do stop it before a conflict arises. It's amazing to see how she can get a rise out of other animals by staring them down. Doesn't really work on the cat thank goodness.
Don't let Mika get in the habit of it with the cat. Teach her to focus on you and get her attention when she does it. This behavior could get her attacked by another dog as well.
Long story short, Dave's right about the chasing. One minute it's a game, and the next the cat's in her mouth. Maymay pounces on my cat and chases her. One day, Chanel (the cat) was in her mouth being shaked. Maymay's chase had turned into the hunt. Poor cat didn't come inside for a month. I now keep them separated completely. Maymay wants to kill her.
My male Kai, no problem with the cat. They are laying on the couch right now together. He's a lover, not a fighter.
But I agree with Dave that you should be concerned Mika's behaviour.
Perhaps the simplest approach is to keep them separated more often than not until Mika is around a year old. At a year old you will notice your Kai will calm down a good bit, and that will make it easier to control her (or to distract her) when she is practicing her predatory FAPs.
Dogs will perform the behaviors they practice the most, especially if those behaviors are practiced a lot as a pup. So, my suggestion is to limit the amount practice she gets in performing this chain of behaviors w/ the cat, and the easiest way to do that is to remove the trigger (the cat) from the room while your Kai is young and developing her habits.
Six months of routine separation for your cats is worth it if prevents them from being hurt later by a 40lb adult Kai Ken.
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Every so often Kuma will get a bit rougher but Nyx can either put him in his place or we are there to stop it. So far, there has been no injuries on Nyx's side, and only one on Kuma's because he couldn't get his face out of the way fast enough and Nyx poked his nose with a claw. It bled for a few seconds, and that's the most we had around here.
Now, Akitas do not have the same tenacity as Kai do, from what I see here in the forum and compare with Kuma. So I agree with Brad, it's mainly a management thing, stay on top of them while they're interacting, and give them some slack to see if they can get it solved on their own or if you need to step in.
I personally think unless you are willing to create safe dog free spaces for your cats, primitive breeds like Shikoku and Kai ken will have a difficult time overriding their instincts.
I did have someone that wanted to train Mika to hunt boar, wanted to take her with them for a couple of weeks at a time to train her..basically wanted to adopt her as their third dog. I didn't like the idea. I don't hunt, my family never used dogs to hunt, and I don't want anything to happen to her. Plus I don't hunt. And I'm sure that wouldn't have helped her any with the cats.
And I wasn't going to start her with Agility like tomorrow or anything, I meant down the road a ways, I do think it would be something fun to do with her and I do think she would enjoy the activity. I already have a trainer ready for her when Mika is old enough, and she did advise me to find out when the Kai's are mature and fully grown so we don't do any damage, but right now we're just doing obedience and some cute little tricks. She kind of reminds me of my horse...very athletic, hard headed, extremely stubborn, smart, and a bit of a drama queen. And they both throw their weight around, and are always looking for ways around the rules.