While surfing youtube, I found this vid on a guy hunting Japanese copper pheasants with a shiba. I think this if my first time seeing a hunting shiba. Not the best quality but pretty cool stuff.
Really cool to see a Shiba hunting...I know the history, and see the prey drive in action, but have always been curious about hunting with them went, so this gives me a taste, at least.
Though of course, if it were labeled person chasing after off-leash Shiba, I'd believe that too! *lol*
My little Shiba (Nola) hunts birds... I do not really let her do it on purpose, but that girl is keen and FAST!
Several times while hiking, she will dash into the brush and come out with a grouse or quail. It is a little disconcerting for me (being vegetarian and all), but it is kind of cool to see. With a little training, she could probably be a great bird dog! She would just have to be on lead because she has HORRIBLE recall. :-P
That's really interesting. I don't know too many western bird dogs that would really thrive hunting in that terrain. I feel like we just got a glimpse into the development of the Shiba. :-)
Okay... I was finally able to watch the video... Lindsay, I think the camera was mounted on some sort of self calibration device... It only made the noise when the camera was moving.
Awesome pictures! @ Kevin, me too. I have a very drivey girl out of a very sharp import. Of all the temperment types I have seen in breeding shibas, her sire has the type I would use for work if I hunted, but I don't hunt, so I can't judge what is best ability for that in a dog. I am hoping to put my money where my mouth is by having the puppy start early in performance events at least. I can't afford to lose her in the woods, lol, so no hunting likely, tracking hopefully.
This is soooo cool! I am totally going to do bird hunting with a shiba someday. I bet it's tricky to find the right pup for hunting these days, but wouldn't it be cool to start a line of actual working shibas in NA? They aren't worked too often in Japan either, are they, Shigeru? @TheWalrus Are there kennels for hunting shibas, or are they mostly pet/show lines?
I'd totally be up for that kind of breeding program. It reminds me of the Basenji Native Traits thingy.
Cool pictures, I hazard a guess this is how many of the Shibas of the past have been. It is possible to get the character in a Shiba, they are out there, but seems few and far between here in the U.S. I have not met anyone who hunts Shibas. Hunting drive may not be seen as a value so I think passed up in a program that does not see the merit. Maybe the breed is too hard to train in American/British fashion of hunting. If there are dogs that do not throw the hunting character they may be few and far between to pass on to the majority of dogs in the breeding population. Conformation seems to be the emphasis instead. I don't know of anyone who breeds specifically for hunting lines as in the other breeds, such as spaniels, retrievers etc
Lindsay: Yep that line is very "drivy"!! It think this character is something that should be pulled through in the breed though. I would love to see the emphasis on that for sure. I have this same character in mine dog from that line as well and I would not trade it for the world. Air, land and sea with great retrieve.... Not common at all. Plus he has an off switch. He compares with the field spaniels in capability. He has a softer mouth for a Shiba but still harder than a golden or spaniels on retrieve or when in full drive. He also is bossy so working in a pair he will tend to push the other more experienced dog off its course if care is not taken to manage focus and keep separate. You can NOTclump him like a pack of spaniels who group like a school of fish. He watches carefully so he is learning. The "mine" factor has to be proofed worked around constantly, especially in new locations. Don't know how far I will take it though. No live birds yet just decoy and that retrieve is going ok 89 - 97% on land depending on the day. Water not so great or consistent. He is pretty good with gun fire and helicopters .... He will actually follow the ranger copter, which is kind of scary. We have only been out about 4 times. My shiba overheats quickly as well, so warm upland fields are tough on him without a cool coat. That is hugely expensive and I don't know I want to make the investment for just mucking about. Just testing out for kicks has been interesting though.... I thank the Field Sp. people for allowing me to do so. I am pushing more toward agility, nose work and tracking instead. We shall see where it all leads. Only so much time in a day or days off.....
--Oh forgot to mention....if one is not experienced with hunting dogs you will definitely need a mentor. Without the assistance of the FSP club I would have not been able to try it out. At this point I won't go the route of ear pinching etc to reinforce retrieve or force release so pretty much I probably am at a stopping point I imagine.
--Oh has anyone had problems with their NK dog retrieving a nylon bumper? Plastic is ok but anything with nylon seems to be rejected for some reason. He doesn't seem to like the texture of the material, maybe the smell.
Are there Shiba Inu out there who would not have the instincts to chase a bird? Is that common in Shiba?
For a bird-dog Shiba I would think "willing to please" would be the most important factor. Obviously drive is important, but most of the healthy Shiba I have met would be more than happy to chase a bird.
I think sharpness and the ability to take pressure is very important in a (large or small) game dog, but not so much a bird-dog. Actually, I would guess "sharpness" would get in the way in a bird-dog. And birds put very little pressure on a dog, so their ability to take pressure would probably not matter much for bird work. @dlroberts I think can speak to this with Tyson, who is a pretty sharp Kai Ken.
My point is, the Shiba I have met (which is admittedly far fewer than Lindsay, Patrice, and others have met) had a nice prey instinct and loved to chase. Ours would work well for treats and seemed to enjoy OB if you kept it moving at their speed (which is super fast) and pretty much all the Shiba I have met had boundless energy (even Kaia with her issues - tho maybe not so much as she gets up there in her years)... Jeez, I can't stop rambling...
Again, my point is, if I were to have a Shiba breeding program and wanted to focus on their hunting prowess I would mos def choose birds as my game and I would breed for a personality that produced high-stamina, easily trained, noise-tolerant, and focused pups... I might not worry as much about grit and sharpness, as that may end up detracting from their ability to perform well as a bird-dog.
In the Shiba I have met, I've seen a lot of fear-biting anxious dogs, so certainly adding some "coolness under pressure" qualities (keep the "fight" in them, but suppress it a bit) in there would be an improvement and wouldn't hurt their ability to do the Shiba bird-dog thing. IMHO
Now if I were to choose a non-bird game I would mos def select for grit and sharpness with lots of "coolness under pressure".
Tojo was a very cool cucumber, I think he had many of the traits that would have worked for this. He performed really well in obedience class (better than the poodles!) and I had him off-leash a lot.
I seem to remember a yahoo group for working shibas, but they focused mainly on agility. Although, agility would require many of the same characteristics.
Brad writes: I would breed for a personality that produced high-stamina, easily trained, noise-tolerant, and focused pups."
I regard to your question. I don't know of a Shiba that doesn't like a chase. It's the follow through that is of issue. Some are full bore stalk and grab and others give up. Just depends on the dog.
--Easily trained is relative. High stamina, usually that isn't an issue with a healthy dog. But there is a difference between what some perceive as stamina and just needless nervous energy.... Sometimes hard to distinguish and mistakenly labeled as drive. A fine line but important. Grit is another one where there is a fine line. Persistence is needed yet not over intense.
Also a dog that has the capability to see and decipher outside of its visual reference line (ie. above, the ground, and far way when not on the same plane of vision) is awesome to work with and more flexible in terms of hunting. Not all dogs are able to take multiple perceptions and apply to their own vantage point. The best ones in any breed have this multiple adaptation without much training. These are the gifted ones.
High ticket items in my book...Noise tolerance, ability to relax, and human focused early on, are elements that probably could be selected for and necessary to a greater degree. I don't know how easily "visual reference" dogs are able to pass along their character. I would hazard a guess that it too could be selected for.
Most troublesome in my opinion is a hard mouth, as Dave mentioned in another thread. Snf
Yea, I agree, "easily trained" is relative... "human focused" is a better way to put it.
I'm sure confirmation plays a large role in stamina too. Perhaps "working confirmation" (think Blue's lanky dry body vs a Neo's over-done large body) and not "high-stamina" is a better way to say what I was trying to address.
Saya is no hunter or anything, but I wouldn't mine working with her in tracking different game like quail or something like that. Saya is actually pretty good off leash in my back yard or field area.
Today I fed her a whole quail I got off hare today and did some playing around sadly had no one to old her so she couldn't see where I dragged the quail to, but It was the best I could do.
I got it on picture mostly and on video at the end wished I just did it on video oh well I got like 6 or so quail left. my next attempt I'll do better.
Saya did pretty decent we did some scent work at her obedience class, but sadly I forgot how to train it, but she seemed to catch onto the scent pretty good maybe next time I'll tie her leash to a tree so she can't see exactly where it got dragged to.
I did this for fun though since Saya loves following scents if a deer or rabbit went by.
Yes those photos are from japanese hunters and their shibas. As far as I know the only people hunting with their nk's are just dave and myself. I don't think there is anyone hunting with shibas in the us but I can be wrong.
Great photos of Saya. I had no idea how much work it was until I met the spaniel people and spent couple of days trying to catch on. They live, eat, and breath it. The Japanese approach to training may be way different than here.
I remember a bird-hunting Shiba that was posted on the old shibasports website. I had the impression that the dog was owned by a US hunter. The website is long gone though so I can't confirm.
Monica Monroe "I live in kansas and have taken my 6month old shiba hunting 3 or 4 times this last season for quail and pheasant. He really gets in the zone and stays about 30ft in front of me. Retrieving is something we are working on during the off season using a block of wood we nailed quail wings to. Giving the dog a job and purpose like hunting definitely is an excellent way to focus energy that could become destructive and unpredictable."
Comments
Though of course, if it were labeled person chasing after off-leash Shiba, I'd believe that too! *lol*
Several times while hiking, she will dash into the brush and come out with a grouse or quail. It is a little disconcerting for me (being vegetarian and all), but it is kind of cool to see. With a little training, she could probably be a great bird dog! She would just have to be on lead because she has HORRIBLE recall. :-P
I'd totally be up for that kind of breeding program. It reminds me of the Basenji Native Traits thingy.
Lindsay: Yep that line is very "drivy"!! It think this character is something that should be pulled through in the breed though. I would love to see the emphasis on that for sure. I have this same character in mine dog from that line as well and I would not trade it for the world. Air, land and sea with great retrieve.... Not common at all. Plus he has an off switch. He compares with the field spaniels in capability. He has a softer mouth for a Shiba but still harder than a golden or spaniels on retrieve or when in full drive. He also is bossy so working in a pair he will tend to push the other more experienced dog off its course if care is not taken to manage focus and keep separate. You can NOTclump him like a pack of spaniels who group like a school of fish. He watches carefully so he is learning. The "mine" factor has to be proofed worked around constantly, especially in new locations. Don't know how far I will take it though. No live birds yet just decoy and that retrieve is going ok 89 - 97% on land depending on the day. Water not so great or consistent. He is pretty good with gun fire and helicopters .... He will actually follow the ranger copter, which is kind of scary. We have only been out about 4 times. My shiba overheats quickly as well, so warm upland fields are tough on him without a cool coat. That is hugely expensive and I don't know I want to make the investment for just mucking about. Just testing out for kicks has been interesting though.... I thank the Field Sp. people for allowing me to do so. I am pushing more toward agility, nose work and tracking instead. We shall see where it all leads. Only so much time in a day or days off.....
--Oh forgot to mention....if one is not experienced with hunting dogs you will definitely need a mentor. Without the assistance of the FSP club I would have not been able to try it out. At this point I won't go the route of ear pinching etc to reinforce retrieve or force release so pretty much I probably am at a stopping point I imagine.
--Oh has anyone had problems with their NK dog retrieving a nylon bumper? Plastic is ok but anything with nylon seems to be rejected for some reason. He doesn't seem to like the texture of the material, maybe the smell.
Here is a link http://www.flickr.com/photos/shibasswim2/
Snf
I wouldn't mind owning a shiba inu with that type of drive I'd love it.
For a bird-dog Shiba I would think "willing to please" would be the most important factor. Obviously drive is important, but most of the healthy Shiba I have met would be more than happy to chase a bird.
I think sharpness and the ability to take pressure is very important in a (large or small) game dog, but not so much a bird-dog. Actually, I would guess "sharpness" would get in the way in a bird-dog. And birds put very little pressure on a dog, so their ability to take pressure would probably not matter much for bird work. @dlroberts I think can speak to this with Tyson, who is a pretty sharp Kai Ken.
My point is, the Shiba I have met (which is admittedly far fewer than Lindsay, Patrice, and others have met) had a nice prey instinct and loved to chase. Ours would work well for treats and seemed to enjoy OB if you kept it moving at their speed (which is super fast) and pretty much all the Shiba I have met had boundless energy (even Kaia with her issues - tho maybe not so much as she gets up there in her years)... Jeez, I can't stop rambling...
Again, my point is, if I were to have a Shiba breeding program and wanted to focus on their hunting prowess I would mos def choose birds as my game and I would breed for a personality that produced high-stamina, easily trained, noise-tolerant, and focused pups... I might not worry as much about grit and sharpness, as that may end up detracting from their ability to perform well as a bird-dog.
In the Shiba I have met, I've seen a lot of fear-biting anxious dogs, so certainly adding some "coolness under pressure" qualities (keep the "fight" in them, but suppress it a bit) in there would be an improvement and wouldn't hurt their ability to do the Shiba bird-dog thing. IMHO
Now if I were to choose a non-bird game I would mos def select for grit and sharpness with lots of "coolness under pressure".
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Tho, there may already be Shiba breeders out there who are focused on that angle, I dunno.
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I seem to remember a yahoo group for working shibas, but they focused mainly on agility. Although, agility would require many of the same characteristics.
I regard to your question. I don't know of a Shiba that doesn't like a chase. It's the follow through that is of issue. Some are full bore stalk and grab and others give up. Just depends on the dog.
--Easily trained is relative. High stamina, usually that isn't an issue with a healthy dog. But there is a difference between what some perceive as stamina and just needless nervous energy.... Sometimes hard to distinguish and mistakenly labeled as drive. A fine line but important. Grit is another one where there is a fine line. Persistence is needed yet not over intense.
Also a dog that has the capability to see and decipher outside of its visual reference line (ie. above, the ground, and far way when not on the same plane of vision) is awesome to work with and more flexible in terms of hunting. Not all dogs are able to take multiple perceptions and apply to their own vantage point. The best ones in any breed have this multiple adaptation without much training. These are the gifted ones.
High ticket items in my book...Noise tolerance, ability to relax, and human focused early on, are elements that probably could be selected for and necessary to a greater degree. I don't know how easily "visual reference" dogs are able to pass along their character. I would hazard a guess that it too could be selected for.
Most troublesome in my opinion is a hard mouth, as Dave mentioned in another thread.
Snf
I'm sure confirmation plays a large role in stamina too. Perhaps "working confirmation" (think Blue's lanky dry body vs a Neo's over-done large body) and not "high-stamina" is a better way to say what I was trying to address.
----
Today I fed her a whole quail I got off hare today and did some playing around sadly had no one to old her so she couldn't see where I dragged the quail to, but It was the best I could do.
I got it on picture mostly and on video at the end wished I just did it on video oh well I got like 6 or so quail left. my next attempt I'll do better.
Saya did pretty decent we did some scent work at her obedience class, but sadly I forgot how to train it, but she seemed to catch onto the scent pretty good maybe next time I'll tie her leash to a tree so she can't see exactly where it got dragged to.
I did this for fun though since Saya loves following scents if a deer or rabbit went by.
Snf
Snf
Monica Monroe
"I live in kansas and have taken my 6month old shiba hunting 3 or 4 times this last season for quail and pheasant. He really gets in the zone and stays about 30ft in front of me. Retrieving is something we are working on during the off season using a block of wood we nailed quail wings to. Giving the dog a job and purpose like hunting definitely is an excellent way to focus energy that could become destructive and unpredictable."
Maybe someone else can pursue this lead?
Awesome! Thanks for posting that. You're like a shiba detective.