Help out me with female aggression

edited May 2011 in Behavior & Training
I have a problem. Ife has began to act aggressive towards other females in the dog park. I think she is trying to "protect" Nuuk from other females. She has came a real asshole because she is teasing other females even they don't notice Ife. She goes to them and starts to growl and snips them. Few times there has been stronger females who show Ife her place and then she don't bully them anymore. She is acting like this to females from 1-6 years old but not to anyone else. What could I do to stop this behaviour? Because sometime there might come female who will hurt Ife and bad to the dog park. I appreciate all advices :).

Comments

  • Don't take her to the dog park from now on, or go when other dogs are not around.
  • But that really doesn't change her attitude. I think it might get worse if we stop going to park.
  • edited May 2011
    Perhaps it won't changer her attitude, but continuing to go to the park will definitely make it worse. The dog park is the absolute worst place to work on any behavioral problems with your dog. You have zero control over the environment, and when training a dog out of issues they have with the environment (other dogs in this case) you need complete control. I'll second Lindsay's suggestion of not going to the park.

    As for helping Ife with her issues, the best thing you can do is set her up for succes. Set up controlled interaction with dogs you are familiar with and reward her for acting appropriately. Keep the sessions short and positive. If she starts to growl, redirect her by either calling her to you or by body blocking her. Get her attention completely off the other dog, do some basic obedience to calm her down, and then try again.

    Aggression, if that's what Ife is displaying, can take a really long time to alter. It is a behavior that is generally accepted to be based on fear, which I think is increasingly common in Ife's lines (she's a Classy dog right?). Your goal is to build her confidence by starting small and building up. Hopefully in a few months or a year you can try the dog park again. But for now, I'd avoid it like the plague.
  • I am currently reading a book called "Fight!" By Jean Donaldson. It has given me a lot of insight. It is very short, only 126 pages. You may get some help from it too.
  • Have to look if it has been published in Finland. We are going to have compulsory pause in dog park because I'm moving back to my hometown to summer and in that one-horse town we don't even have a dog park (or any other place where you could keep your dog off-leash).

    Yes, Ife is from Classy kennel. Could this behaviour do something with Nuuk because she was fine with females before Nuuk came. And on leash she don't have issues with the females.
  • edited May 2011
    @dlroberts Hey Dave Koda is a Classy dog. You know I adore you but just because Ife's a Classy dog doesn't mean that this behavior is genetic. Koda would never act like this.

    However Mei is a total punk to other dogs. She resource guards me and she growls and nips other dogs. She is a total bitch in confined areas which is why I don't take her places with fences. Just keep Ife away and life will be easier.
  • I believe it is well established that certain patterns of behavior are strongly inherited, although not by every dog. The foxes in Russia experiment directly proved that for example.
  • Sometimes while reading this forum it really feels like that people are judging people who has took them Kais from Marian. Yeah, her Kais have shyness but it automatically doesn't mean that we are bad people who took pup from her. I felt guilty for a long time that I have done something wrong in Ife's raising. But I assure you that I would do anything for that dog! We all have our own criterion when choosing a breeder and I made my own decision and it went wrong.
  • I don't think anyone is judging, and certainly no one is saying you're a bad person! Sometimes these things happen. I've got a Shiba from a breeder that is almost a puppy mill breeder, and while I now know better, I didn't at the time, and I haven't felt judged for my mistake. I still love my little crazy girl too!

    We all have to learn....I wasn't entirely sure that behavior/temperament was inherited until fairly recently, for example. I'd read a couple of books that suggested it wasn't necessarily inherited, and believed it, but I've also read plenty of things that suggest it is, and also seen some of it, so....now I know. I know I was very cautious when I got my Akita--I wasn't entirely sure temperament was inheritable, but I didn't want to take any chances, so I tried to eliminate breeders that looked like had more aggressive dogs. But you know, I was kind of guessing there....

    Agression is kind of a pain to deal with, and it does take a lot of work, but it's not the end of the world either. It will likely mean she can't be as social with other dogs, but that's ok. (I can't take any of my dogs to a dog park, and while I know plenty of people here have more "social" NKs, I tend to think of those dogs as being the exception rather than the rule).
  • @MirkaM - This is the first time I've ever heard someone say that they felt there was a negative vibe regarding Classy's dogs on this forum. Honestly it's a bit of a shock to me.

    Kona is from Classy, and Kona is GREAT, he's one of the most handsome Kai I've ever seen. Sure, he is a bit fearful, but I have always stated that, if anything, that's more our fault for not socializing him very well.

    I think there are some lines in the US that can produce shy Kai, I think those lines of Kai are peppered throughout all the North American breeding programs, and having been to Japan and met several shy Kai over there, I don't think it's an issue that's unique to the US.

    Anyway, Mirka, you should know Dave well enough by now to know he was not being negatively judgmental with his comment regarding Ife. I'm sorry you got offended, but I don't think their is a biased for or against Classy's Kai Ken on this forum.

    ----
  • Maybe I overreacted a bit. Sorry for that. But could someone explain me if Ife's behaviour is genetic as you say why she started to act aggressive towards females after Nuuk came? I well know that some behaviour is genetic but the environment also interact . Our older Schipp female (she is from English lines) is very alert and has very strong confidence. All her pups have been tough guys to raise. And then our another female (from French lines) is very friendly and calm. She doesn't boss anyone and usually give in easily. Her pups are great to raise and we haven't get any complaining from their owners.

    I have to try to go to the park alone with Ife someday and leave Nuuk home and see how she acts. Oh, I found that book and I'm planning to buy it. Is it "easy" English to read because it hasn't been translated?
  • I haven't heard any of this stuff about Classy kennels, either. Quite a few of the forum kai owners have Classy dogs.

    Can you elaborate on the extent of this aggression? I wouldn't worry too much about a short growl or a little snap in certain situations, so I'm curious. It might not be as bad as it seems, although it could be worse than it seems, so it's important to really understand what's going on. I think a prerequisite for anyone making use of a dog park is to really understand canine language and to really be in touch with their dog. You really have to be able to see trouble coming from miles away. When things go wrong, you have less than a fraction of a second to react, so it's much safer to know how to prevent bad situations.

    I have that book, and I think it's written in very plain English. I think you understand English well enough to read it. And hey, if you come across something you don't understand you can look it up or ask us. No problem!

    I would suggest general reading on canine body language as well. There are a lot of different things a growl or snap can mean, and you can't address the issue unless you understand its root. And, like I said, sometimes a growl or snap is appropriate, so it's important not to react negatively when nothing's wrong or you could cause undue anxiety in your dog. You may also want to try to write down, in as much detail as possible, every incident you remember, and record any future incident. There may be patterns you haven't noticed, and knowing those things lets you avoid bad situations to begin with. You've already mentioned females ages 1-6, so that's a good detail to note. Any other details are helpful as well.
  • I try to write the behaviour better when I figure out how to explain it clearly in English.
  • Mirka I totally understand your feelings about Classy. Koda is from Snowglobe, but his parents are from Marian. I have had heard several people attack Classy's dogs and say that they are fearful and aggressive. I had three people personally email me to warn me that Koda would end up turning on me one day. One said outright that he would probably need to be put down by the time he was two.

    I will say though that this forum has always been my safe place. The negative comments were never made here, and it's what made me more active here than on other forums. But I still react and get sensitive on the matter. I become this overprotective mom that never wants to hear anything that could get someone else to say something. I need to work on that.

    As far as Dave is concerned, I felt comfortable replying to his post because he's been to my home and met Koda. He knows that Koda is well Koda, not aggressive at all.

    I see shyness as a Kai trait, not a breeding line trait. There are lots of dog breeds that are shy.
  • I have also get emails like that after I told in the yahoo group that I got Ife from Marian and we are having issues with her socialication. But Ife has never been aggressive towards dogs she know and never tried to bite any human.
  • edited May 2011
    Yes it was the yahoo group that I heard from as well. I do think that people have become more open though. Or at least stopped outright saying things about Classy dogs. There are still probably a couple of bias people against Classy dogs, but I hope that in time they will see that our dogs are the same. Their dog's grandparents are all Classy dogs. :-)
  • Whoa--you both got emails like that from a people on a Kai group? That is TOTALLY out of line! I'd be super pissed, and also, I think I would likely become a bit sensitive on that point if that happened to me!

    I'm going to have to check out the Fight! book too...
  • Sorry that you experienced some drift from the nasty Kai politics in the US. Unfortunately, being warned about your Classy dog is peanuts compared to what's been said and done in the past.

    Thankfully new folks are no longer pressured as hard to pick sides or else they won't get a Kai.
  • @brada1878 - Thanks for "interpreting" my post for me Brad. I was away on business and didn't have a chance to check the forum at all. I absolutely meant no disrespect to anyone or their dogs by that comment. I was merely commenting on my own observations and, granted, some second- and third-hand information. Also, to clarify, I meant that a certain degree of fear is increasingly common in classy lines, not aggression. In reading my post, I can see how that was ambiguous.

    @tjbart17 - I'm glad you feel comfortable responding to my post!

    I agree that shyness is somewhat common in Kai. Just like being a punk-ass is common for Shikoku. That doesn't mean it's ideal or even necessarily what should be selected for though. Maybe that's a discussion for another thread though.
  • Loads of shy (mostly female) Kaiken over here. I think it's safe to say of all the NK, the Kai swings towards wariness.
  • @MirkaM-I agree with hondru, there really isn't quite enough information given to figure out exactly what is going on.

    Is Ife due to come into heat ? This can drastically change a females behavior and all the dogs around them. I have had females that even beat up the boys especially when in heat. I do not let anyone out with a female that is in heat. She becomes unpredictable and so do the other dogs.

    I agree, I would not to take her to the dog park for a while. You can't control the other dogs.

    I would take her to some kind of classes though. Things are more controlled that way. Even conformation classes will help. (Unless she is coming into heat, then I would just give her a few weeks away from any stress).

    She may also feel the need to protect Nuuk for some reason. How old is he?


  • edited May 2011
    Okey, let's try do I read any intelligible text (my head is full of chemistry, final exams before holiday!). So, if we are in the park alone and then someone comes there, my dogs wait my permission to sniff the new dog. To this point Ife is behaving well IF she is the one to sniff other females rear. When the other starts to sniff her she starts to growl and gives few nips. Usually the other dogs goes to do their own things and then Ife follows them and if they are starting to sniff Ife again, Ife starts to snap (she does this snapping also with Nuuk but without growling). And she is trying to walk like that she looks very big (I don't know the word for this but I think you know what I mean). Usually there goes some time before she does this "second" attack and she spents that time under my command. And then she like suddenly feels like she haves to go and remind who was here first.

    If the other female starts boast back to Ife then Ife stops boasting. But if the other female doesn't show any marks on submission, Ife continues doing this.

    Nuuk is now five months old. Ife is fine with my mum's female Schipperkes. And Ife had heat in the beginning of March. She has had four heats now. Her next heat should be in August but is there possibility that she might get in season earlier because earlier empty heats? And Ife act just like this when she is in heat.

    Oh, and Dave I should have read your post more carefully. I undertood wrong few spot, sometimes I really wish that I would have invest more time to English in school.
  • I think Ife is acting perfectly normal for a female Kai. Heck she acts just like Mei. Ife just may not be as social as you want her to be. Not all dogs are social and not all dogs like the dogpark. I'd personally just not bring her there. It doesn't sound like she is 100% comfortable. Stick with the things she likes. You can always just bring Nuuk there if he likes it. I did this with Mei and Koda.

    I wouldn't call her aggressive. I'd call her a punk. ha ha
  • Ditto. Reading that description sounds pretty normal to me. :-) Sounds like Ife just isn't a dog park dog.
  • temperament is to a large part INHERITED.....in the genetics of the dog at birth.....socialization will effect temperament either positively or negatively depending on how it is done....to what degree depends on the skills of the owner and what it brought to the game right "out of the whelping box"

    SHYNESS should always be a red flag and NEVER a desirable trait and should be DEselected by any reputable breeder....often only leads to worse problems as the dog matures....it is almost always paired with reactivity. i would personally never recommend a breeder who consistently turns out litters of shy pups
    - should never be "defended" by the owner in any way... i should be viewed as a problem to be worked on "yesterday" and overcome
    - can't remember but i think this is discussed in Culture Clash ( igotta re-read it again)
    - unfortunately show breeders of ALL breeds are usually more concerned with conformation "standards" and "looks" than temperament.....WORKING dog breeders know how important temperament is and make it a very high priority in selecting their breed stock

    but a shy pup definitely needs WAY more socialization than a confident pup
    * many people do not realize "getting a dog out in the world and exposing them to new experiences" is what socialization is all about....it ISN'T

    correct socialization should always be done while strictly controlling the environment with the primary goal of NON reactivity as a target.....control and reactivity or usually ignored, murphy's law rears his ugly head and a pup can be ruined in an instant. they usually pay no attention to reactivity and in some cases think it is EXACTLY what you should be looking for in the pup !
    - i often see a new owner out with their little pup for the first time and make a special effort to try and explain how this is so important for them to realize
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