Kai Ken Loyalty

BradA1878BradA1878
edited May 2011 in Kai Ken (甲斐犬)
Last weekend I had a phone conversation with a couple who was interested in the Kai Ken. They have owned Shibas in the past, and didn't enjoy the breed's "stubborn nature" (their words). Their last Shiba passed a few years ago and so they are now looking to add a new dog to their family. They wanted to stay within the Nihon Ken breeds, and liked the Shikoku and Kai. So, they called me to ask some question about the Kai Ken.

After their comments regarding the "stubbornness" of the Shiba Inu, and how they didn't like that quality in the breed, I asked what interested them in the Kai Ken. They said they like the slightly larger size and, from what they gathered from their research, they felt the temperament of the Kai Ken or the Shikoku Ken was more suiting to their personality (read as: "not a Shiba"). They also mentioned that the Kai Ken was their first choice.

So, I asked them what about the Kai Ken made them think that the breed was less stubborn than the Shiba Inu. They said that, from what they had read, the Kai Ken was a more loyal dog and so they felt they wold be less stubborn than the Shiba Inu.

I thought this was interesting and so I wanted to state, for the record, that "loyal" does not equal "biddable".

IMHO the Kai Ken is a very loyal breed that bonds very closely with their family. They seem to pick their owners out of the family (no matter who feeds/cares for them), which is kinda unique. They want to be with their family, and love attention from their family, and will even show some separation anxiety when their owners leave them. All this may make them less likely to run away, and maybe a bit more interested in their owners than some Shiba Inu, but this doesn't mean they'll be any easier (or harder) to train than a Shiba Inu.

I ended up suggesting a Shikoku Ken to them, as I feel Shikoku Ken are not very stubborn and really geared toward that one-on-one OB type of work. I told them that, if they are ok with the potential for reactiveness toward dogs that could come with the Shikoku, then I felt they would be happier with their temperament. But, I warned that, in my experience, the Shikoku is one of the least loyal Nihon Ken breeds.

Anyway, I guess my point is that, if obedience and ease-of-training (biddable) is high on your list, loyalty is not really a trait that's all that important.

*I'm not saying the Kai Ken isn't a biddable dog breed, or that they are hard to train, all I'm saying is that, in my experience, their are other NK breeds that are more biddable and easier to train.

----

Comments

  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    edited May 2011
    Very interesting Brad. I have only met 2 Kai in person (the ones that came from you to Peggy), but it was only for a 4 h time and they were sweet, but we were just hanging out. So I don't have any experience, but what you say is interesting.

    So, when you try to do OB work with a Kai, are they easily distracted or not very motivated? I know I experienced that with my Siberians, that you really had to find something to motivate them to want to perform OB (esp. precision OB). Shikoku, on the other hand, seem to really enjoy learning precision OB (at least my two) and tend to be precise each and every time once they learn something. In contrast, my Siberians were not very precise consistently -- sometimes yes, sometimes no. But I would say that Siberians were not loyal, they liked everyone.

    Edited to add: I define loyal as wanting/needing to be with "their" owner, which is separate and independent of being trainable. I consider dogs as less loyal if they are happy being with just any person, not necessarily their owner. FWIW.

    Case in point, Kuma is VERY loyal in that he really wants to be with me (not my husband, but me) and does get upset when I go away. But, I can pass him to someone else to do a training pattern and he performs beautifully for them too -- independent of his loyalty for me.
  • kaikenonekaikenone
    From my experiences with the Akita, Shiba and Kai, I feel the Kai is the most willing to please. Would that be the same as biddable? I have found the Shiba being the most obstinate and the Akita will do it, but very seem reluctant at times ...they actually grumble in protest but are usually obedient. They remind me of a teenager...

    In fact of these 3 breeds I think they all have to have the right incentive. But I think the Kai takes a lot less incentive.

    I have found the Kai very easy to train actually trying to anticipate what you want which can be frustrating at times.The fact that they are so into their person and don't want to leave them can work for you and also against.

    I do not have enough experience with the Shikoku to comment on trainability (is that a word).
  • LosechLosech
    That's interesting. I can certainly say I like stubborn dogs, and don't like the ones who do everything I ask without question %100 percent of the time no matter what.
    Conker is definitely not a normal Shiba though. He is pretty mellow, gets along great with almost all dogs, has amazing recall and doesn't like to wander off. I've also been able to teach him things I can't get my Mom's Border Collie/Labrador Retriever mixes to understand.
    I guess with my choices of potential dog breeds, easily trainable is not one of my top qualities, but happened to get that in my Shiba. He is amazingly loyal though, I really like that.
  • plasmodiumplasmodium
    Actually, this came up for me in the petstore yesterday. While there a person came up to me and started gushing about how loyal shibas are, and I was initially confused because I equated loyalty with obedience (and she is one stubborn little lady who is not food motivated at all! XD).
    I'm glad you've brought this up, because I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought that, and after thinking about it I do feel like the person at the store was right, Buffy is very loyal to me, and we have bonded closely, but that doesn't mean she's not stubborn as hell!
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Interesting topic. Koda is very loyal to me. I'm his human, and he loves being with me. But, the first day I had him I noticed how darn stubborn he is. He's still stubborn, but it's calmed down a bit as he's gotten older. I think it was Dave who I was speaking to about this. I admitted that I've never had to compromise so much with a dog. I like that he thinks for himself, but sometimes I would get sick of being questioned. If he's focused on something, ie a cat running by, he's still very stubborn. He wants to do what he wants to do and he wants me to just go with it.....like run after the cat. It's difficult to get him to focus on me, and he will purposefully not make eye contact. This usually ends with him giving me the stink eye for not letting him do what he wants to do. He's such a patient dog, but he seems to lose his patience with me.

    So, when you try to do OB work with a Kai, are they easily distracted or not very motivated?

    It took a bit of time to get Koda focused on me to train. He hated his first trainer, and his dislike for her made us drop her class. I couldn't get his attention. His focus was on watching her to make sure she wouldn't go near him.

    With age, and given a different environment, he is what I would consider handler soft.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Interesting! I don't at all equate loyal with biddable, so I tend to think of Shibas as loyal, in the sense that they're really not terribly interested in anyone other than "their" people. I tend to think of loyalty as being an NK trait in general, though of course I only really know Shibas and AAs. But in both cases, they do tend to bond well with their people, and they have various degrees of aloofness with other people. Since I just watched the AA speciality show yesterday, what I was noticing is that the Akitas are pretty friendly overall, and the young ones were quite likely to approach strangers for attention, but they weren't annoying about it (well, I suppose the jumping up could be seen that way), and were more focused on their person. I know, Brad, we've talked about the loyalty of the Akitas before, and I think you felt the JAs weren't terribly loyal? And actually, now that I think of it, the AAs aren't really very aloof; they're just not as demonstrative with strangers as some other breeds can be.

    But this has nothing to do with being biddable or with how stubborn they are or aren't!

    I also think Akitas are pretty easy, actually, at least the AAs. They are more like "regular" dogs (ie. non NKs) to me. Oskar's pretty willing to do what I ask--not as quick to understand as a Shiba, but much more willing to do it once he gets it. No patience for a high degree of reps, though!

    I have no experience with Kais, except for lots of reading about the dogs here, but I imagine them as more biddable than Shibas, but of course,that's not really saying much is it? What do you all think--are the Kais more biddable than other NKs?

  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    @shibamistress - based on Brad's description, Shikoku are more biddable/trainable than Kais and both are probably more biddable than most shiba. But only a few of us can actually compare across the breeds (Brad, you, Heidi/hondru). :-)
  • HeidiHeidi
    Sosuke has definitely chosen me as his person, and I'd say loyalty factors into biddability in the regard that Sosuke is a lot more likely to obey me than anyone else. Between Rakka and Sosuke, Rakka will get more focused and energized about training and it seems to really excite her. Sosuke's much more laid-back in his approach. I think both attitudes have pluses and minuses. To sum it all up shortly, I'd say that training Rakka is easier, but she's more prone to problematic behaviour in the first place, so she requires more training. That ready excitement is good when they're focused on learning, but it can also be focused on other things. Sosuke's easily distracted, both from me and from bad behaviours. He's more contained, overall.

    One thing I keep thinking is that Sosuke has a sense of duty to him, though. There's a certain work ethic that goes along with that loyalty, I think.

    But, I'm comparing one kai with one shikoku and the kai is a puppy.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    @shibamistress - Yea, what Kris wrote. ( @Edgewood )

    It wasn't really my intention to compare the breeds or to make any generalized breed statements in this post. Of our Kai Ken, some are more biddable than others, some work well under distraction, some don't. Some are very energetic and some aren't. I think, with any Kai Ken, if you find the right motivators you can train them to do anything - easily.

    The Akita Inu I have owned in the past were, IMHO, very easy to train and really wanted to please. Maui and Kaia (Shiba) are also pretty easy to train too. But, our Shikoku, from my experience, are the most motivated during training.

    I read all the time about how hard CO are to train, but I find our CO to be some of the easiest to train out of our dogs.

    But, compare a CO, Kai, Shiba, Shikoku, or Akita to Blue, our Cane Corso, and it's nigh-and-day with training. Blue is really willing to work - very snappy and willing to please. He will work - hard - for just attention (no food or toy rewards). So, you know, it's all relative.

    ----
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    I think it really hurts my COs feelings if he realizes he didn't do what I wanted, and the Shiba could care less. They have no remorse.
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    edited May 2011
    @Edgewood Actually from what I saw of Shikoku, I think Kais are more trainable. There are certain behaviors in Shikoku that I think are a bit over the top and I would never allow a Kai to do. IMO I find Kais to have more social manners than Shikoku. I am more tough on Koda than what I would be with a Shikoku. For instance, I found Shikoku to like getting in my face. I would ream Koda if he did this. I would never allow that behavior, but with Shikoku it's playful and fun for them. It's a quality they just seem to have. I loved it when Ahi got in my face. I found her to be hilarious. I wanted to steal her because she reminded me a lot of myself. But don't get me wrong. If a Kai tried to do that, or boss other dogs around, I would squash it in a second.

    I really liked Ahi, Loa (well she's just a sweetheart), Shoushou, Kotomi, Shuran, and Kaiju. But Kaiju was over the top too. He started an argument with Ritsu and Shuran I think 30 seconds into me meeting him. He got upset because they were both getting the best of him in a play session. Ritsu acted like a typical Kai and didn't let it get to him. He just wanted to have fun and got punked a little by Kaiju. I would expect this from Shikoku, just as I would expect the Kai to walk away. I would be way more strict with a Kai than a Shikoku because I would expect them to have more inherent manners.

    I'm with Heidi. I don't equate loyalty with being biddable. I'm not sure if I found any of the Shikoku to be terribly loyal. I found them more independent in their thinking and wanting to do what they wanted to do. I didn't see a real connection with them and humans.
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    edited May 2011
    @tjbart17 - actually, I believe we are having a difference in descriptors more than anything else.

    I agree with you that Shikoku have behaviors that can be more over the top and require more "training". Exactly as Brad posted regarding their reactiveness (and Heidi posted regarding management). And you posted above in response to my post. However, I think it really is a difference in general "training" to live with vs "training" as in prepping/teaching skills used in competitive obedience (I was speaking of the latter based on Brad's quote):

    That is how I took Brad's quote that shikoku are "are not very stubborn and really geared toward that one-on-one OB type of work" and why he recommended them to the couple over Kai, which he thought were maybe not as biddable in this manner...as long as you could manage their (shikoku) dog reactiveness.


    But I am thinking that Brad (@brada1878) and Heidi (@hondru) are more in line with what I was speaking to -- the innate willingness to learn obedience, as in obedience patterns, and willing to be precise and do as asked. That is what I was talking about, shikoku really seem to get a kick out of being precise and learning this type of thing. My shikoku work hard in their obedience patterns for praise alone (although food treats are even better!).


    So Brad/Heidi, correct me in if my interpretation was wrong. As I said, I have almost no Kai experience.
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    @Edgewood thanks for the explanation. Yes I can see that. I do get how their sharpness would be a good quality for OB work.

    Sometimes I get stuck in what I've done with Koda as far as therapy work and I need to step back and look at the whole picture.
  • HeidiHeidi
    @Edgewood Yep, that's exactly what I mean. Shikoku can be obnoxious, but they definitely like learning.
Sign In or Register to comment.

© Vanilla Keystone Theme 2024