Hunting (turkeys and other things)
@shishiinu @TheWalrus @dlroberts
I'm getting ready for the upcoming hunting season - taking all the courses and getting all the licenses I need - and I'm thinking I will train one or both of my dogs to help me. Sosuke if the SAR doesn't pan out and Rakka regardless. Even though she's getting kind of old to start training, I know she's still got drive and is still capable of learning, so it's worth a shot.
So, I've been deciding what animal to hunt with my pups. Boar and deer are an obvious choice for NK. Boar aren't that common, so there are places to hunt them in the wild but not many. There are "penned" hunts, too. It's illegal to hunt deer (and all big game except cougars) with dogs here. It's not even legal to have a dog with you while you're hunting big game, so if you're hunting birds with a dog and you see a deer, you will get in trouble for shooting it. I had thought of trailing wounded deer, which is legal in BC and Montana, so I'd have to drive there to do that. Which doesn't rule it out, but makes it more inconvenient. Which is a real shame, because deer would be my preferred quarry.
There are also bears, cougars, and other big game predators but I'm really not interested in hunting anything I can't eat.
Also - when your dog is baying an animal, how do you shoot the animal without shooting the dog on accident?
So, in trying to keep with larger animals, there are turkeys, which from what I can tell, are hunted much differently than other birds. Turkeys aren't native, either, but they do live in a wild in a few areas. Gen, you hunt turkeys. Do you use your dogs to hunt them or do you do that by yourself? I read on one website that dogs are supposed to bark when they flush turkeys, and most bird dogs don't do that, although NK like to bark at their quarry, am I right?
Other game birds - Dave, you hunt upland fowl. Tell me about your decision to do that versus other game.
Waterfowl - anyone have any experience with that? Probably best left to water dogs, I suppose. I happen to know that Rakka wouldn't retrieve anything from the water, and I think the jury is still out on Sosuke.
Also - taste. Does wild boar taste similar to pork? Does wild turkey taste like domesticated turkey?
I'm getting ready for the upcoming hunting season - taking all the courses and getting all the licenses I need - and I'm thinking I will train one or both of my dogs to help me. Sosuke if the SAR doesn't pan out and Rakka regardless. Even though she's getting kind of old to start training, I know she's still got drive and is still capable of learning, so it's worth a shot.
So, I've been deciding what animal to hunt with my pups. Boar and deer are an obvious choice for NK. Boar aren't that common, so there are places to hunt them in the wild but not many. There are "penned" hunts, too. It's illegal to hunt deer (and all big game except cougars) with dogs here. It's not even legal to have a dog with you while you're hunting big game, so if you're hunting birds with a dog and you see a deer, you will get in trouble for shooting it. I had thought of trailing wounded deer, which is legal in BC and Montana, so I'd have to drive there to do that. Which doesn't rule it out, but makes it more inconvenient. Which is a real shame, because deer would be my preferred quarry.
There are also bears, cougars, and other big game predators but I'm really not interested in hunting anything I can't eat.
Also - when your dog is baying an animal, how do you shoot the animal without shooting the dog on accident?
So, in trying to keep with larger animals, there are turkeys, which from what I can tell, are hunted much differently than other birds. Turkeys aren't native, either, but they do live in a wild in a few areas. Gen, you hunt turkeys. Do you use your dogs to hunt them or do you do that by yourself? I read on one website that dogs are supposed to bark when they flush turkeys, and most bird dogs don't do that, although NK like to bark at their quarry, am I right?
Other game birds - Dave, you hunt upland fowl. Tell me about your decision to do that versus other game.
Waterfowl - anyone have any experience with that? Probably best left to water dogs, I suppose. I happen to know that Rakka wouldn't retrieve anything from the water, and I think the jury is still out on Sosuke.
Also - taste. Does wild boar taste similar to pork? Does wild turkey taste like domesticated turkey?
Comments
Unfortunately like you said, many states do not allow the use of dogs for deer hunting. hunting deer with dogs is a bit different on the western side of NA. The terrain is more open and the deer (mule and/or whitetail) are much harder to hunt then lets say the Shika in Japan. If you have penned boar hunting areas, I would use those facilities to train and hunt with your dogs. Not saying american deer cant be hunted with dogs but they fight back and when they fight back, most of the time its extremly lethal to dogs. Deer fight coyotes using their front legs and I have seen coyotes torn to shreds with just a few hits from a mature mule deer.
The way I use a gun to dispatch game is it all depends... The most important thing is that your dogs are clear from the shooting line. You have to take into consideration that a bullet my pass through the other end of the animal. What I do is I wait for the dogs to stop and find a clear opening to shoot. Many times this is a split second opening. Because knives are illegal to use for the take of game, I can only use a gun. The gun of choice for me is either a .44 mag revolver, 45-70 lever action rifle, or a single shot 30-30. The key is either a: shoot before the animal knows your there, or get right up on the animal and put one behind its head. Its easier said then done so it will take a few times to get consistant, I'm still working on consistancy...
As for turkeys, many people who use dogs use them during the fall when the turkeys are in large flocks. You'll need a dog that can hide with you under a tree, run out to a flock of turkeys and come right back so the hunter can call the flock back. Spring turkey is done almost entirely by calling because of the mating season. You'll be hunting if full camo from head to toe and even your weapon will be camo since turkeys have super power eyesight.
As for bear and lion. Bear is edible and is not that bad when made into sausage. Most black bears will eat the same thing deer eat so it may be a bit gamy but when you make it into sausage its like eating pork but I guess you can put skunk in sausage and add enough seasoning and it will taste like a ball park frank.
For waterfowl its all up to the dog. I have only used labs for duck and geese so not sure how a NK will do. If you dog is gun shy its going to be really hard since your dog will be sitting next to you in a blind. For me its all about making it easy for my self by using a dog that it was originally used to hunt, for me it makes for a much more pleasant hunt. But not saying a NK cant hunt ducks.
as for the taste of wild boar, its definately a bit different from the stuff wrapped in plastic at the store. I feel that it all depends on what they are eating, I love hogs that have been on acorns, otas, watergrass, and barley. Big nasty boars that roll in their own piss and you know what taste a bit on the stinky side so they make for good sausage. The key to good tasting game is how fast you get it cleaned out and cooled. For deer the key is how fast you can get the pelvic bone removed so that there are no fluids in the cavity. When I gut my animal I take care into trying not to break any of the urinary lines, bladders, or intestine to keep bacteria from forming. Once you do this a few times its easy as making rice.
Hope this helps.
I'll add on the boar meat that it really does depend on time of year, age of the animal, and what they've been eating. Terrain even makes a difference in quality of meat. Think of it as redder than pork, with younger smaller boar being closer to pork, and older boar getting tougher and closer to beef. As far as taste goes, like all wild game meat, proper butchering and preparation is key.
Shooting prey when my dogs are on them is a fine art, and you only get better through experience. Once you've got it down, you can pretty safely shoot even when the dogs are right on the boar. The key is to have your weapon sighted properly, have a lot of practice using it, and then most importantly to be out there with your dogs when they have quarry bayed. I ended up losing a lot of animals at first because I had to wait too long to take the shot, and that was the prudent thing to do. Through experience you'll learn the right timing and shot placement to use, and most of it is learned by watching your dogs working on numerous occasions. The method I use on boar is to get as close as I can safely and quietly, and on high ground, just behind and to the left or right of my dogs, with hopefully a tree to stand next to. I then aim just ahead of my dog's head, and wait for the boar to charge. What this does is it gives me a second before the boar is actually in my sights so I can make a judgment as to what my dog is going to do about it (sometimes the dog will move toward the boar and dodge it). When the boar makes that charge, and I see my dog turn to run, the dog will be moving safely away, and the boar will move right into my sights on the spot my dog was at. This also helps give me time to take the second shot if necessary, as the boar is pretty much broadside for a good shoulder shot.
Of course in hunting every situation is different, so I'll have to take different shots, but I'm sure all us dog lovers will agree that I'd much rather lose a boar than take a bad shot that puts my dogs at risk.
That being siad, my training with Tyson on birds has been an uphill battle from the start. I love the bond we've developed from working together, but I've had to take weeks, if not months, to teach him certain skills that a purpose-bred bird dog would generally know instinctually. I chose to fight this battle mainly for four reasons: 1) as Gen said, hunting big game with dogs is increasingly shunned, which makes deer nearly impossible on public lands (and at the time I didn't know any private lands to hunt); 2) hunting boar can be extremely dangerous for dogs, and I didn't want my inexperience to put my dog in harm's way; 3) boar don't live all that close to me, so the time required for travelling for training and hunting opportunities would have been prohibitive; and 4) as I've come to accept, my heart really is in bird hunting.
So, would I advise you to hunt upland or waterfoul with your NK? That depends. If you're a serious hunter, which I'm increasingly becoming, then the answer would be no. You'll find yourself looking for things your dog just isn't wired to provide. If you're someone who is just interested in getting out on the weekends for 1/2 a day to have fun with your dog, then absolutely!
If you do choose to hunt upland or waterfoul with your NK, there are 3 main hurdles you will need to overcome: 1) range (upland only); 2) a hard mouth; and 3) retrieving. Range in an upland bird dog is crucial, especially if you're hunting over a flushing dog, rather than a pointing dog. The generally accepted range for a flushing dog is 30-35 yards as that's about the distance you'll be able to fire a well-aimed shot after a bird is flushed. When Tyson was young, his range was great for bird hunting. Now that he's maturing, it is a contant battle to get him to hunt within range of me. Most NK being bred for big game, either have a hard mouth or aren't specifically bred to have a soft one. This means your NK is going to chomp down on birds and render them less fit for the eating. In some cases, they may even start eating the bird themselves. Lastly, retrieving is an instinct that is selected for heavily in waterfoul dogs, and to a lesser degree in upland dogs. It does not appear to be selected for at all in NK. Often times this means your dog will choose to sit and enjoy his bird rather than bring it back to you. I'd guess you could easily train out of this with an e-collar and/or force fetch training, but do you really want to do that to your dog?
Hope that helps!
That last point actually brings up the core of the issue. For the NK, a wounded animal is an opportunity to complete their prey FAP, so they will tend to grab and shake. For a bird dog, a wounded animal is an opportunity to retrive, so they won't sit there tearing feathers off before bringing a bir
I read some more about turkey hunting with dogs, and I think Sosuke would be good at that, but definitely not Rakka. Rakka would not be content to bust a flock of turkeys and then come back to me and sit quietly. Even if I taught her to come back to me, she'd be making barrier frustration noises (I'm sure other Shikoku owners know what I'm talking about) that would scare off the turkeys. Sosuke could do it, though.
As for boar, I can't figure out if boar hunting is feasible for me. I've found news articles on boar in Alberta, how there's an outbreak of them because they escaped one of the "penned hunt" areas, and they're everywhere. But then others say that it's grossly exaggerated and there are hardly any. It's true that they're classified as a pest and there's a $50 bounty on any boar shot, and there are SOME out there SOMEWHERE, but whether I'll find them is a whole 'nother question. The areas where they're supposed to be are pretty far away from me, too. At least a four hour drive, whereas deer are everywhere. There are penned hunts, but at $600 for one hunt, it's cost prohibitive, and I'd rather be more natural. BUT, boar can be hunted year 'round and there aren't any rules about how you hunt them.
Hunting dogs are prone to injuries as you have all seen just with my bird dog Hana. To keep my kishus on their game I take them once a week to areas with pigs, its a 80 mile drive each way driving a truck that gets 12mpg. I also need to get my dogs on hogs so it will cost me a few trips to the pig farm at 400 a pig.
To me its worth every penny but some of my friends with bird dogs complain if they spend a 100 bucks to shoot planted pheasants. Even bird dogs need to be trained year round and be put on birds. I'm not a big upland bird hunter but keeping purpose trained hunting dogs is a big commitment in my opinion. Its not a let me try it out and not do it if it doesn't work out. Imho I don't think its fair for the dog.
I think the best way to get into hunting is to start simple with spot and stalk deer hunting. Get used to the idea of carrying a gun out and actually taking game. Once you have gotten used to the idea then get into hunting with dogs. You'll see that many people who hunt with dogs started building their hunting skills by hunting on their own.
I will probably start with something relatively simple, like tracking wounded game. I can train the pups to track deer blood, which is easier to do on your own. To train year round, I just need to keep myself supplied with deer blood. Plus, since this takes places after the animal's been shot, it'd be a little easier.
Thanks for all the tips and info.
-@ Honru: Maybe you moved to close too soon, being up close is pretty rough being it was only the second time. Tough especially because being alone without any other work being done to counter balance the focus on the sound allowed her tension to escalate. At least it was only the mats. I have heard of seats and seat belts being shredded.
FWIW, A lot of the spaniels are desensitized by working about a 1/2 mile from a shooting range and then moved closer over time, and/or like Dave a starter pistol is used at a far distance for awhile. (The starter pistol has less reverb or kick rumble that hits ya at the core, which I think scare some as much as the sound itself.)
It is my understanding sound acclimation exercises should start pretty early as a puppy and by the time they reach 18 months or so they are better adjusted to go to the range. Some dogs are just gun shy and they never adjust. Others can be great initially but if they are around a dog in panic they learn to panic as well. I have been told it is important to train with a seasoned dog to help the newbie dog out, starting at a great distance from the gun fire and with basic obedience at particular stations set up for different exercises etc.
Dave writes: "If you do choose to hunt upland or waterfoul with your NK, there are 3 main hurdles you will need to overcome: 1) range (upland only); 2) a hard mouth; and 3) retrieving. Range in an upland bird dog is crucial, especially if you're hunting over a flushing dog".
@ Dave I saw your comment after writing a long blather in the other thread....yep these are certainly concerns we have and now see having a little practice time with some others.....
We have not even gotten to live birds......don't know if we will. My big issue now is the fact that my dog has learned to take down birds in flight in the yard so there is the very real possibility the desire to hunt alone and keep the prize is now going be too great. The Fields do not do this to any great degree if at all. Easy keepers.
I think this is really important for NKs. In my experience Nks are really hard to recover from shock associated with gun fire. Its really crazy, I can fire a 12ga shotti right next to my labs face while in a duck blind and she is so comfortable with it. Fire a .22 from 50 yards away near my Kishu, it will get them a bit nurvouse. Really weird.
Oh yeah, and no, there's no risk a dog running from the dog run to the firing range - the firing range has all manner of security around it.
Saya and Bella are pretty used to gun shots people in my neighborhood target practice and in deer season hunt deer so we hear shots atleast once a week depending on the season.
My dad and brother practice with their guns and my dad also practice with his shot guns and lot times I'd sit outside the house.
With work Rakka should be OK. I'm glad Sosuke did well.
Snf
---Ok here is an update on my earlier comment if anyone is interested......Don't laugh. What does not happen in one way comes to bite you in the arse in another......
I took my dog into a large undeveloped field yesterday to practice some basic skills with bumpers and retrieves. I knew it would be the last time for awhile after the heat set in so we attempted to take advantage of a beautiful day.
Anyway, after all the expectation and the good things that had come about in the previous minor precursor to hunting and tracking experiences, we had an incident with insects and possibly grass. My boy went nuts with the buzzing of bumble bees. I think he may have gotten stung. Poor thing ended up chasing his tail and biting his feet going into insane circles (something he has never done before). It took two of us to catch him, thankfully I had him on a very long leash line.
Last night we ended up with the allergist and pred. shots to reduce swelling that basically was bad enough the poor dog could not see.
Sadly after yesterday's situation the underlying health issue dictates we take "fun stuff" indoors or to a developed area where grass is low and insects are few .......basically the hunting thing is out for us. We will continue to pursue other avenues.
Long story short and words of wisdom ... Even with a "hunty drivy" dog one needs a completely healthy animal to hunt or outdoor track. If inhalation allergies are an issue some outdoor activities may be a bust.......yes obvious, but just sayin....
Snf
@ Heidi: There is a lot of background that I did not mention. I only wish a little pill would be the answer... If only it were that simple.
My boy has had allergy issues for awhile. Allergy OTC meds do minimal for him other than put him in snooze mode. He is on the latest and greatest to treat though, and currently given allergy shots. In fact he is at the lower dose twice a week since he so sensitive. We knew that he has some issue with stinging insects given the positive results from the allergy panel. However, we had no idea exactly how he would react when stung until now. Particularly since he is on the desensitization shots. Given yesterday's reaction I can't image what would have happened prior to this. We think there is a combined issue with the grass pollen plus the insect sting. Anyway, after discussion with the allergist, rather than tempting fate I am pulling him out of high flair inducing scenarios (field work) for now. The shots are providing some help but it is a long road to getting a balanced system.
In terms of hunting, cost is the other factor. If you want to train in a preserve around here the cost is around $100 for a 1/2 day for field use, not including birds. It is best to split $ between a group, however, you have to have a willing party who would be flexible enough to welcome another breed to "shack up" with theirs. Hunters are as opinionated about their sport and methods as breeders are. A good quality cool coat modified for my boy's size is around $210. Not a big issue but want to be committed to the training before I invest that. Particularly since that is something that could go into medical care at the moment.
Anyway my Shiba has been super through all of training. He is being trained in agility as well so we are continuing up that avenue. We have been a little late in entering this arena due to a tick borne illness as a pup and shoulder/bicep injury in adolescence. (Yep, he achieved maximum height score of 10 on a triple gainer off of a 4 1/2 ft packed snow bank ....snowbank 1, bank account 0, due to surgery cost.) Bold dogs get into trouble it seems. I guess in the wild he would be considered a little too bold and curious... nature would basically self select probably (lol). In terms of human interaction and work as a camp/hunt dog certainly it is what I would select for though.
If I get a chance at the end of summer I will attempt a blog. It will explain so much more than I can give in bits and pieces here. Not making any promises but may at least I can post a few pictures etc etc. if anyone is curious.
Snf
PS: when it rains it pours..... my old girl who has kidney problems is not doing well right now. Waiting on lab results to confirm progression of the issue. I am hoping she will be ok, she has a follow up tomorrow. She is not eating, has not eaten in three days. I strongly believe she is having some sort of renal issue. We shall see.