Questions on Kai
Hello. As you may know, I'm new here and I have some questions about Kai Kens. Actually, it's more about the breeders. I'll just get straight to the point:
How do you guys avoid inbreeding your dogs? I know the obvious things, like don't breed littermates to each other or their parents or their littermates and so forth. Inbreeding is one of the things I'm most opposed to, which actually makes me an outcast among Ball Python breeders, or at least it will when I actually breed my snakes. But in breeding imported dogs to the dogs you already have, do you just check the pedigree? I guess this paragraph only exists because I read some discussions and it seems like a lot of people have dogs with the same parent or parents.
As I dream of breeding and preserving Kai Kens, I've been wondering about this a lot. I mean, even if I found 2 dogs that are as unrelated as can be, I'd still be nervous about inbreeding. I mean, does anyone know how many Kai Kens have been imported to the U.S. roughly? I've read some things and want to know: What is line breeding among dogs? I think I know this from the practice of the top Ball Python breeders, but I'm not certain.
Yet another question: who are the breeders you all would recommend? I know I should look for them myself and I have, but I'm never certain. I may not be able to get one for possibly 2 years but I want to know who I should be waiting on for the puppies, specifically those who conform to the Aigokai Standard. I don't mean to be picky, but I do want to help give back to the breed as much as I can in breeding them.
Ok last 2 questions: Is there any sort of website with all of the Kai Ken lines? I mean, if not for the issue of privacy I think it could enhance diversity if people could see which dogs are ideal to breed with theirs and which dogs are too closely related. Lastly, do any Kai Ken breeders in the U.S. do collaboration type things? I just thought I'd try to some up all of my thoughts into one post.
Sorry for the ridiculous amount of questions.
How do you guys avoid inbreeding your dogs? I know the obvious things, like don't breed littermates to each other or their parents or their littermates and so forth. Inbreeding is one of the things I'm most opposed to, which actually makes me an outcast among Ball Python breeders, or at least it will when I actually breed my snakes. But in breeding imported dogs to the dogs you already have, do you just check the pedigree? I guess this paragraph only exists because I read some discussions and it seems like a lot of people have dogs with the same parent or parents.
As I dream of breeding and preserving Kai Kens, I've been wondering about this a lot. I mean, even if I found 2 dogs that are as unrelated as can be, I'd still be nervous about inbreeding. I mean, does anyone know how many Kai Kens have been imported to the U.S. roughly? I've read some things and want to know: What is line breeding among dogs? I think I know this from the practice of the top Ball Python breeders, but I'm not certain.
Yet another question: who are the breeders you all would recommend? I know I should look for them myself and I have, but I'm never certain. I may not be able to get one for possibly 2 years but I want to know who I should be waiting on for the puppies, specifically those who conform to the Aigokai Standard. I don't mean to be picky, but I do want to help give back to the breed as much as I can in breeding them.
Ok last 2 questions: Is there any sort of website with all of the Kai Ken lines? I mean, if not for the issue of privacy I think it could enhance diversity if people could see which dogs are ideal to breed with theirs and which dogs are too closely related. Lastly, do any Kai Ken breeders in the U.S. do collaboration type things? I just thought I'd try to some up all of my thoughts into one post.
Sorry for the ridiculous amount of questions.
Comments
I have a few balls that I hope to breed in a few years, and also breed geckos (mostly Rhacs). From what I understand, reptile breeding is less strict when it comes to linebreeding, with the excuse that reptiles are different than mammals and won't suffer the issues that come up with mammals. Though, as you see with the balls, certain health issues rise up cause of it.
The situation with the Kai is that there is a limited number of founding Kai in Japan much less the US. And after so many generations of breeding with a limited number of founders, there are going to be no modern Kai that are completely unrelated to one another. This is true of most if not all standardized dog breeds.
The terms "inbreeding" vs. "linebreeding" are used by breeders to differentiate between breeding between closely related dogs vs. distantly related dogs, but to a population geneticist ALL linebreeding is inbreeding. To a population geneticist, the Kai and other domestic dog breeds are inbred by default.
Have I scared you out of breeding dogs yet? :-)
This doesn't have to be a fearful, paralyzing situation though. There are mathematical equations created by population geneticists to determine probable degree of inbreeding for an individual dog based on pedigree information. (Due to several events during inheritance, it's not possible to know for sure what the degree of inbreeding is, only the probability.) One of these equations is referred to as Wright's Coefficient of Inbreeding or COI for short. The more generations known in a pedigree, the more predictive value the COI has.
A famous population geneticist named John Armstrong recommended less than 10% for 10 generations after his studies of inbreeding in standard poodles.
Lacking that complete info, it's recommended that it be less than 6% for 5 generations, which is less than first cousins relations.
Lacking the meeting of these goals, at least have the offspring generation have a COI less than that of the parents.
Okiron touched a little on why people do linebreeding. It's to fix desirable traits in the dog, make the dog more useful to the human. As an extreme example, think of someone breeding a poodle to a rottweiler. For what purpose? What can be predicted in such offsprings? Color traits are easy to predict but how about the complex traits? What about temperaments? What about drives? What about useful working traits? And what about the offspring's offspring?
In the best case scenario, fixing traits should be done via assortive matings (selecting unrelated dogs that have all the desired traits) but sometimes those options are closed off. Then it becomes the dilemma of the individual breeder to weigh in on what is more valuable to strive for in that particular generation or mating. Working traits to make the dog more useful? Health and physical traits that give a good quality of life to the dog and their owners? Temperament traits to make the dog more adaptable to living in modern times? "Type" traits that make it a Japanese dog, a national treasure? And lastly, a low COI that contributes to the diversity of the gene pool?
From the article mentioned above...
Are purebreds dogs genetically diverse? Some may regard that as a contradiction in terms. The very concept of creating a breed with characteristics that are distinctly different from other breeds implies a certain limitation on diversity. Nevertheless, within the standards for a breed, diversity should still be possible for genes that do not affect the essential characteristics that distinguish one breed from another. If, in order to maintain breed identity, one has to compromise on genes that relate to general structural soundness, good health, intelligence, and temperament, perhaps this breed should not exist. However, as long as these essentials are not compromised, I see no reason why one cannot have different breeds with different appearances and different talents.
For those genes that establish breed identity, there will be markedly less variability within a breed than within Canis familiaris as a whole. The tricky bit is restricting variability for those genes that make a breed distinctive without sacrificing the variability/diversity that is necessary for good health and long-term survival of the breed. In many cases, this has not been achieved, and we are now paying the price in terms of high incidence of specific genetic diseases and increased susceptibility to other diseases, reduced litter sizes, reduced lifespan, inability to conceive naturally, etc.
The site that article is from is a great site to check out if you plan to breed canine: http://www.canine-genetics.com
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Ah, Ann ( @ayk ) responded, I'll stop writing now.
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Is there any sort of website with all of the Kai Ken lines?
>> I am in the process of completing an online application that will map and display pedigrees of Kai Ken. Once completed I will invite all Kai Ken breeders (worldwide) to enter their dogs pedigree info, and that will give us all a better understand of the bloodlines of the Kai Ken.
Lastly, do any Kai Ken breeders in the U.S. do collaboration type things?
>> Yes, there is a Kai Ken community in North America that collaborates with each other as well as with breeders in Japan. That community is growing stronger and stronger.
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@okiron - Do you mean with the snakes? Well I was hoping to have at least two of most basic morphs and buy more of each basic morph with money from the babies of those snakes. In terms of the snakes, I want to breed them because I love Ball Pythons, and profit from breeding animals is not in my interests. When I originally learned about Ball Python morphs, I really only wanted a Queen Bee, but it was so much money that I just wanted to breed to get one. But I really began to admire most of the morphs by the time I was ready to order Safi and Valo, so I guess I'll be breeding them more for myself, but I'd still like to make a small business out of it.
However, they're just babies right now. Safi will be turning 1 on the 26th. Actually I'm surprised there are Ball Python enthusiasts on this forum, it's good to know.
@ayk & @brada1878 - Don't worry, that won't scare me out of breeding dogs. I did have an understanding that technically all Kai Kens are related and thanks for explaining some things on inbreeding. I do study animals and I know that like humans, most dog breeds have been inbred to some extent. I think I was trying to ask if people here are working to minimize the inbreeding that's done - which you answered while I was writing this. I'm a bit paranoid about inbreeding to be honest. A few years ago I had gotten 2 kittens from my friend. They were from an inbred stray population and one of them had grand mal seizures, went blind, and died at 3 months old. But on a not so depressing note, is that the North American Kai Association you were mentioning? What standards do they abide by- I'm just curious because I can't figure it out. Lastly, are Classy Kennels and Royal Kennels any good? Those are the only ones I could find besides yours brada.
By the way, thanks everyone!
Also, the Cheetah is another interesting study. Some say that they were also founded by a pregnant female. They were doing okay until modern times. Think about what changed for them.
@okiron - Thank you for pointing that out; I had forgotten to. That's one more reason I hate pet stores. They import wild, sickly, parasite infested animals that don't eat and help spread those ailments around. Unfortunately the only people who have enough political power to stop wild imports / lessen it are PeTA and the HSUS. The same people who JUST happen to want to eliminate pet ownership.
It's been ages since I took genetics but I do remember that mutations on an individual DNA molecule have a 1:1,000,000 chance of happening naturally. The chances of a mutation happening to an important location enough to phenotypically see it is even more unlikely. Seeing a "sudden" increase in new mutations usually means that the protein that repairs regular DNA damage, UV or whatnot, is itself mutated or dysfunctional. If THAT happens, it leads to bigger problems than just a new color morph or curly tails or floppy ears that coincidentally matches what's seen in domesticated dogs.
To rephrase it, imagine the odds of getting a mutation in the right spot that exactly mimics the traits see in dogs without seeing an increase in cancers or deformities?
I think I was trying to ask if people here are working to minimize the inbreeding that's done - which you answered while I was writing this.
>> Genetic diversity is the primary goal of our preservation efforts and why we have imported (and continue to import) new lines to North America. So, yes, we are working to add diversity to the NA population.
I think genetic diversity is super important, but I think your kitten story example of inbreeding is an extreme one. There are dog breeders in the US that constantly line-breed off a single dog and produce very few health issues.
I'm not arguing that line-breeding is the way breeding dogs should be done, or suggesting that I plan to do it extensively in our program, but I think it's something that can't be completely avoided in such a rare breed with a closed population.
Have you done any research on cattle or sheep breeding? Google "progeny testing in cattle", line breeding is a tool that is used very heavily in domestic animals.
Point is, the inbreeding in the Kai Ken is nowhere near as extreme as it is in some of the less-rare dog breeds like the Neo, Bulldog, Chi, Cavalier, Pug, and many other breeds. Take some time to study various breed's pedigrees, you will see how close the breeding is in some of the least-rare breeds: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com
I think, as a community, the Kai Ken breeders should do their very best to keep the population as diverse as possible, which means selecting studs in a way that reduces the potential for population depression, but given the small population of the breed, even in Japan, it's unrealistic to expect to have a breeding program with no relation to any of the other Kai Ken in North America (or Japan).
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is that the North American Kai Association you were mentioning? What standards do they abide by- I'm just curious because I can't figure it out.
>> I was not speaking specifically about any one breed club or organization. Yes, NAKA is an example of a Kai Ken owner and breeder member-base who is actively working together for the betterment of the breed. Outside of NAKA I know that several of the Kai Ken breeders are working together to diversify the current Kai Ken population in NA. For example (I can only speak for myself) I have imported, produced, and placed Kai Ken with cooperative owners and breeders throughout North America. The more new dogs we can bring over from Japan the better the breed will be in the long-run.
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Lastly, are Classy Kennels and Royal Kennels any good?
>> A Kai Ken from any of the breeders in North America would make a lovely companion. Picking a breeder is a very personal thing, I'd reach-out to as many breeders as possible and choose the one you are most comfortable with. I'd be weary of any breeders (in any breed) who spends a substantial amount of time complaining about the other breeders in a their breed.
If preservation is your main goal, then I would consider importing a Kai Ken as even a non-breeder can play a role in preserving and diversifying the breed population by keeping a nice import and allowing him to be used as stud by the current NA breeding community. You don't need a huge breeding program to make a difference in the population's diversity. If I were you, that's where I would start.
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Just for fun, here's the link to Tikaani's dad on there:
http://pawvillage.com/pedigree/dynprofile.asp?ID=6M2Z71UOWA
@Asheaka- is that the North American Kai Association you were mentioning? What standards do they abide by- I'm just curious because I can't figure it out.
The NAKA's goal is to preserve and protect the KaiKen breed in the US and maintain the high standards of the KKA. The North American Kai Association (NAKA) currently uses the UKC standard, as that is the only registry in the US that has recognized the Kai at this time.
The NAKA strongly beleives the KaiKen should be bred according to the country of origins standards and strives to produce dogs that will fit the UKC standard, without steering from the Japanese KKA standards.
For example the NAKA breeders are intensely opposed to deliberately producing any colors of KaiKen other than the colors accepted by the KKA so we personally tweak the UKC standard and modify our breeding programs to prevent or encourage certain areas of both standards.
@Brada- how do you get some of your type in bold and italics, I am soooo computer illiterate.... help
< i >text between will be italic< / i >
< b > text between will be bold< / b >
So thanks for all the information, guys!
@brada1878 - Thanks for the incite. It is a shame at how inbred the more popular dogs are too. I'd really love to import a Kai Ken, but my family won't even consider it at the moment. My mother actually has hinted at allowing me to get a Kai Ken, but hints only go so far, and I wouldn't want her to just go out and get one from some backyard breeder. To be honest, I like your kennel best as compared to the others in the United States based upon what I've seen. Perhaps in the next 2 years I could fill out a placement form? Of course, it's your opinion whether or not I'm capable of caring for a Kai Ken anyway.
@Calia - Interesting links. Those are some beautiful dogs in Tikaani's pedigree!
@kaikenone - Wow, I didn't know that stuff. I love how they do fight the opposing standard, it's such nonsense to force a breed to change just to fit into a size category.
I'm glad this discussion was able to help others as well. I hope you find a wonderful Kai Ken as well sunyata!