A word of caution...
First, hi everybody! I know I've been MIA lately, but life has been HECTIC to say the least. I recently finished my first year as a professor, I've been writing papers and grant proposals, bought a house and moved, and been attending weddings like it is my job. I'll be back to normal in a few weeks, hopefully. :-)
Before my word of caution, here's a recent video of Tyson playing with Joey in our new backyard. Yes, I now live in the middle of the woods! :-D
Anyway, I want to share a word of caution, because I got a little complacent, or maybe just distracted, and had an incident that I hope everyone can learn from. Due to my craziness in life and work, I've had to board the pups a few times recently. Because of Lucy's special needs, I always board the dogs at the vet, even if it is more expensive. Tyson was due for his annual exam and rabies vaccine so when they asked me if I wanted it done while he was boarded I initially thought it was a good idea. Tyson has always been very wary of strangers, but he warms up within a minute given patience and a lot of treats. When I dropped him off for boarding and was checking him in with the vet tech, I started to hesitate a bit. I warned them that he's cautious and will take some time and that they shouldn't push him. I should have realized that my hesitation was something I should have paid closer attention to.
The next day I got a call from the vet. While doing his pre-exam blood draw, Tyson had gotten very stressed and was shying away from the tech. They decided to muzzle him...without my permission. With him muzzled, one tech restrained him while another attempted to draw blood from his hind leg. From what they tell me, Tyson wanted none of it. I wish they had called me at that point, but they tried to proceed. As I understand it, Tyson reared up out of the grasp of the tech, pawed his muzzle off, and bit the tech on the hand. The bite was supposedly bad enough that she needed to seek medical attention for it. Because medical attention was sought, animal control was called. Protocol in cases of dog bites is basically up to the animal control officer assigned the case. It can range from, "don't worry about it" to "We're seizing this animal for a 1-month quarantine at our facility." Luckily for Tyson and for me, the animal control officer was understanding and gave him a 10 day quarantine to be served while boarding and finished in my home. Tyson will need a physical exam and rabbies vaccine at the end of those 10 days.
I was, and am, really angry about the incident. I'm angry at how the vet handled the situation. I'm disappointed in myself for permitting it to happen. But, I'm actually really proud of Tyson. After much pressure from me, the vet hospital administrator admitted the bite didn't break the skin, only left a bruise. Despite being stressed and restrained in a strange environment by strange people, he moderated his bite pressure enough to avoid breaking the skin. I know it sounds really bad to say I have a dog that has bitten someone before, but I don't think you can ask for a better decision from your dog. He was in a terrible situation for him but still kept his head enough to avoid any real damage. Good boy Tyson!
So, a few lessons learned:
1) Be careful about being complacent on how your dogs will interact with vets. Just because they are schooled in veterinary medicine, doesn't mean they are good at interacting with dogs.
2) Trust your gut. If your gut is telling you something isn't right with the situation, listen to it. Better to miss an opportunity than to let something bad happen.
And one more thing, that I hope people will pay attention to:
3) Kai Ken are in many ways the "easy" shikas, but that doesn't mean they are pushovers. They are easy because of their close bonds with their owners. They choose on a daily basis to put up with us. But don't for a second think that they aren't emotionally or physically capable of getting down and dirty if the situation dictates it. On this forum we spend a lot of time talking about how polite Kai are, and how relatively speaking they are easy to train. But the more time you spend with them, the more you realize that underneath those manners is a raw and wild dog that will come out whenever they aren't comfortable with the situation. Tyson, for example, has the opposte of a hair trigger. It takes a LOT to turn him on. I've seen dogs being downright hectic towards him, and he'll turn the other cheek. But once he decides he's had enough, it's over before you can blink. That wild dog is lying dormant beneath the surface and will come out when we, the owners, drop the ball like I did.
Before my word of caution, here's a recent video of Tyson playing with Joey in our new backyard. Yes, I now live in the middle of the woods! :-D
Anyway, I want to share a word of caution, because I got a little complacent, or maybe just distracted, and had an incident that I hope everyone can learn from. Due to my craziness in life and work, I've had to board the pups a few times recently. Because of Lucy's special needs, I always board the dogs at the vet, even if it is more expensive. Tyson was due for his annual exam and rabies vaccine so when they asked me if I wanted it done while he was boarded I initially thought it was a good idea. Tyson has always been very wary of strangers, but he warms up within a minute given patience and a lot of treats. When I dropped him off for boarding and was checking him in with the vet tech, I started to hesitate a bit. I warned them that he's cautious and will take some time and that they shouldn't push him. I should have realized that my hesitation was something I should have paid closer attention to.
The next day I got a call from the vet. While doing his pre-exam blood draw, Tyson had gotten very stressed and was shying away from the tech. They decided to muzzle him...without my permission. With him muzzled, one tech restrained him while another attempted to draw blood from his hind leg. From what they tell me, Tyson wanted none of it. I wish they had called me at that point, but they tried to proceed. As I understand it, Tyson reared up out of the grasp of the tech, pawed his muzzle off, and bit the tech on the hand. The bite was supposedly bad enough that she needed to seek medical attention for it. Because medical attention was sought, animal control was called. Protocol in cases of dog bites is basically up to the animal control officer assigned the case. It can range from, "don't worry about it" to "We're seizing this animal for a 1-month quarantine at our facility." Luckily for Tyson and for me, the animal control officer was understanding and gave him a 10 day quarantine to be served while boarding and finished in my home. Tyson will need a physical exam and rabbies vaccine at the end of those 10 days.
I was, and am, really angry about the incident. I'm angry at how the vet handled the situation. I'm disappointed in myself for permitting it to happen. But, I'm actually really proud of Tyson. After much pressure from me, the vet hospital administrator admitted the bite didn't break the skin, only left a bruise. Despite being stressed and restrained in a strange environment by strange people, he moderated his bite pressure enough to avoid breaking the skin. I know it sounds really bad to say I have a dog that has bitten someone before, but I don't think you can ask for a better decision from your dog. He was in a terrible situation for him but still kept his head enough to avoid any real damage. Good boy Tyson!
So, a few lessons learned:
1) Be careful about being complacent on how your dogs will interact with vets. Just because they are schooled in veterinary medicine, doesn't mean they are good at interacting with dogs.
2) Trust your gut. If your gut is telling you something isn't right with the situation, listen to it. Better to miss an opportunity than to let something bad happen.
And one more thing, that I hope people will pay attention to:
3) Kai Ken are in many ways the "easy" shikas, but that doesn't mean they are pushovers. They are easy because of their close bonds with their owners. They choose on a daily basis to put up with us. But don't for a second think that they aren't emotionally or physically capable of getting down and dirty if the situation dictates it. On this forum we spend a lot of time talking about how polite Kai are, and how relatively speaking they are easy to train. But the more time you spend with them, the more you realize that underneath those manners is a raw and wild dog that will come out whenever they aren't comfortable with the situation. Tyson, for example, has the opposte of a hair trigger. It takes a LOT to turn him on. I've seen dogs being downright hectic towards him, and he'll turn the other cheek. But once he decides he's had enough, it's over before you can blink. That wild dog is lying dormant beneath the surface and will come out when we, the owners, drop the ball like I did.
Comments
Sounds like all ty did was to let them know that he didn't like the way he was being treated. I hate the fact that many people will over exaggerate when things like this happen. If your business is to handle animals then be cautious and get input from the owners who know the personality of their animals the best.
Imho a few vet clinics I have been to have this mentality that they can handle any animal and blows the owners off when told of the personality of their dog. I really hate this mentality some vets have. Just ask and get the owners involved if some thing is wrong.
Gen I agree with ya there. Working at a vet, boarding place or anywhere that deals with dogs or any animal a bite might happen especially if you push a dog too much.
The vet should have stopped when Ty was being too stressed and pushed to his limit.
Tyson handled himself well if he just bruised.
Thanks for the warning about this it goes for any breed of dog too..
I'm glad Tyson is OK and not hurt or anything.
I think Ty handled the situation as any normal dog would have. Well, if someone would put me some kind of mask and then truss up and try to take blood sample I definately would try to bite or scratch.
I think what happens is the work at the vet becomes so "day in day out" that the workers forget to pay attention to the obvious signs. I see it at my job all the time when my coworkers/employees are trying to force a scared dog into a yard and don't have the patience/understanding to wait and at least try to soften the tension or help the dog feel less stressed so they shove the dog into the yard and a fight will happen right then and there at the gate.
While I do not work at a vet, I can say that boarding is sometimes very stressful for a dog and I get SO ANGRY with some of my coworkers who handle a dog harshly or too quickly when they're obviously uncomfortable with what's going on or giving clear warning signs. It gives the dog a bad experience and can be dangerous or damaging to their health, the employee's health, and the dog's mentality.
Sorry to hear about Tyson. That really sucks, and I think they did all sorts of things wrong, and I'd be pretty pissed about all this. I may be wrong about what I'm going to say, but did this really need to go this far? I guess it might have been the doctors rather than the vets that reported it, but surely there should be some way of acknowledging that the bite came at a vet's office? I mean they are vets office where animals are stressed and I have a hard time believing it's the first time the vet tech got bit (and I'd be SUPER pissed that she made it sound worse that it was). For me this whole thing would be enough that i would be finding another vet right away.
I know my vet doesn't do everything right, and I also know I really can't recommend some of the ways they handle bites (I've gone in and seen one or the other of the vets' hands bandaged up from a bite, often from a cat, and I think they actually just clean it out and take care of it themselves, but I know they certainly don't get AC involved!), but on the other hand, they work with a lot of animals, many of them much less socialized/well behaved than mine, and things like this do happen, but that doesn't mean they need to make it worse like this. Ugh.
And yes, I agree that Tyson did really well even though he was stressed. Poor boy!
I haven't had to board my dogs recently, but I would leave written instructions about the dog(s) behavior and personality with the staff.
Sorry that Tyson and you had to go through this experience--and thanks for sharing it with us.
Jen and I were chatting about this, and I think I probably overlook some of the traits that one might consider less-than-ideal in the Kai Ken. Certainly they have some qualities that make them very hard to deal with at times. I really love the breed and so I am always speaking positively about them, but it's true, they have a "wildness" to them that can be very hard to deal with if you are an inexperienced dog handler.
I tend to forget the fact that Kona has only ever received 5 nail trims in his life due to his visceral aggressive reaction to people touching his feet. Or the fact that, as puppies, Mochi, Chibi, Nori, Ame, Akashi, and Nio bit me (hard enough to draw blood) simply because I picked them up early in our relationship.
Consider Mochi's situation, how many other breeds would go that wild that quickly the way she has? Within minutes of getting free she was mentally gone. Multiple trips to Orlando, hours and hours and miles and miles of searching, search teams, trappers, animal control, cameras, scent-dogs... None of them can catch her even tho she is STILL being spotted. I argue with Stacey (Masha's breeder) about it a lot, she can't see why anyone would want a dog that would go wild that quickly. It's true, they aren't for everyone!
I'll second the "gut feeling" thing too, always trust your gut. If I had listened to my gut and not put Mochi on that plane she would still be here with us.
----
And shame on the vet's office for taking such measures when you were away. I am curious to know if you will be looking for another office or if you think you will still use them.
As for the bit inhibition, I know how you feel. Most everyone knows about Bella's incident earlier this year. She saw an intruder, acted appropriately (by engaging the intruder), yet, used a very soft nip instead of a full bite. These dogs are incredibly intelligent and know when to use just a little force and when to use major force. That, and I am sure all the training that we do probably helps that out a little.
That said, I agree that Tyson acted appropriate in his situation. To him, those people were trying to restrain and hurt him. He did not understand what was going on. If it were me in that situation, and I did not speak the language of the vet/techs, I would have reacted the same way. As I am sure any one of us would. (Not saying dogs are people, just trying to make a point.)
But I am glad that you were able to get the girl to admit that the bite did not break the skin. From my experience earlier this year, I have learned that if Bella ever gets into an altercation like that again (which is doubtful, due to all the precautions I have taken), I will take pictures of the bite. The vet's office should have done that as well, especially if the girl needed to seek medical attention...
I am glad the AC officer was understanding. Most of them are pretty good people, however, on occasion, you will find a bad apple.
Tyson clearly had better judgement than they did. He could easily have caused much heavier damage that a bruise.
(Glad to know you're doing well, even if crazy busy, Dave)
The rabid fox thing is pretty scary!
@Brad....I wondered if there were any word about Mochi. Poor girl! But it does show their wildness, doesn't it? I think my Shiba Bel would be like that too, though Bel now is slowed down considerably by her leg problems, and would probably just get eaten by a coyote.
I don't know about all this wild talk though. Are we comparing Kai Ken to the average lap dog in this sense? Many breeds people see as average lap dog types are actually prone to worse outbursts than what Tyson did. Though I don't have personal experience with Kai Ken, I haven't read or heard of anything that struck me as hard or something to be really weary of in terms of temperament at their limits of composure.... nothing that has gave the impression of them being more prone to violence in any situation really. Lets not forget that most modern lapdog type breeds are relatively recent creations, many of them still have strong instincts from their working past. Some other breeds are thought of as pillow soft and unable to harm people (or other dogs as well)... and some that are soft towards people (like APBT) are thought to be the opposite, because they are traditionally hard towards dogs. Also, many of the more popular breeds are bred for standard and not so much temperament, and when they are small and can't cause serious damage quickly/easily people don't think their aggression is a big deal.
Thats a long rant but what I'm trying to get at is that we're talking about an animal here (Tyson) and comparing him to some imaginary standard of what modern dogs are supposed to be (somehow not animal?). In reality there's a lot of dogs like the vagina biter from that recent thread, just as there are balanced ones. Breeds of course have different predispositions w/ temperament (among other things), but there's also individual variance within the breeds as we all know. So I don't think its fair to rate Tyson or Kai Ken, as well as any other dog or breed, against some arbitrary and biased idea of what the average modern dog should never or always do. Either way there's no such thing as the perfect dog just as there's no way to be the perfect human, its an impossible ideal.
Anyway I think Tyson did very well and that's a testament to the people and dogs he's surrounded with. Also super glad that everything was cool in the end and the skin wasn't broken or anything.
Congrats on everything else going on too dave, hope your able to get enough sleep these next few weeks with all that stuff on your plate
I think Tyson handled himself more than appropriately and I must say I probably would not have been as calm as Im sure you were with all of this going on! Kaiya doesnt do well at the vet without us present either, and even when sedated as she is for pre-surgical blood work, also gives our vet a run for her money, though she is not handled in the manner that Tyson was.
Keep us posted on the search for a new vet.
Cant wait to see more photos of the new place, looks beautiful! Congrats!
Anyway, I would be incredibly stressed out about it. You sound like you're keeping your cool. I hope a better situation can be found next time.
While I certainly think this quality varies from individual dog to individual dog, I do also think there are probably more dogs who are closer to that in certain breeds, in the so-called "primitive" breeds, which includes NKs. (not all of them, though. I don't know about the JAs, but the AAs don't seem to have much this. But to me, the AAs are not really typical of NKs in a lot of ways).
I don't think we were, in fact, comparing Tyson to some arbitrary idea of the modern dog. I wasn't even speaking of Tyson at all, as I said, but I also wasn't making that kind of comparison. I was thinking of a quality that might be better called "feral" I suppose.
My vet is very kind and I've never seen any dogs that didn't like him almost instantly! The best part is that he LISTENS
I have to agree with Dave and maybe I am overly critical but I have been attending some classes for Vet Tech and I can tell you that some of the people they allow in those classes have no dog sense, in fact I beleive they have no animal sense what so ever. Some of these people have never even trimmed a dog nail before going to classes let alone petted a dog.
Get to know your vet and the tech's and if you are uncomfortable with one tell them you want another. It is standard protocal to ask the owner to leave the room when performing most procedures because most dogs are better with out owners (not the dogs fault) and in general I have to agree. I cringe when I sit in the vet office at some of the people who come in and what they allow their dogs to do. I actually leave my dogs in the car until time to go in because I am not very tolerant of these types of people and I know I will say something and get kicked out
My vet had a tech working there that could not even weigh them right. I have had numerous problems with her lack of competance. She is finally gone but it was a nightmare everytime I called or went in. I just simply asked for another tech when I called and told them I did not want her to touch my dogs.
I had another vet that the dogs did not like and I think she was afraid of the dogs. That place told me they had a lot of people that refused to use that specific vet.
I think because of the Kai's nature some of the restraining methods are very threatening to them and had they not tried to hold him in that way he would not have acted so bad. Some of my Kai's do not tolerate strangers wrapping them in a bear hug either....
@ dave.... is Tyson used to a muzzle? That would freak him out too.
I teach all my dogs to wear muzzles so that when they do have to go through a procedure and the vet muzzles them they are comfortable with wearing it. If the dog is comfortable with wearing, the dog seems more relaxed which in turn makes my vet and the techs feel more relaxed and comfortable.
I also insist if it is a dog that does not tolerate strangers well that I hold, although most vets won't allow this. It is definitely against the rules. It is a lawsuit waiting to happen if the dog bites the owner while a vet performs a procedure. Can you imagine being able to sue your vet if your own dog bites you ...this is crazy and ridicules. Anyways, when my vet does simple procedures I hold the dog in a simple restraint even though it is not neccessary. I think this is why my vets allow me to hold certain dogs. I guess I have proven I can control my dog so they allow it.
oh sorry this is so long, guess I got carried away...
still laughing.....
So I get there appointment day and have 2 dogs one with no stranger tolerance and one with no dog tolerance and the vet tech come to take them into the back. First she want to take them both at the same time, so I tell her no and I tell her each ones quirks, and the vet said he wanted to sedate the male before I left. So she says ok I will take this one back and then put you in a room..ok so she immediately grabs Yoki's leash and starts to drag her through the middle of a group of dogs, so by now my patience is gone and I grab the leash back and I yell at her for not listening to me... did you not just hear me tell you she is dog aggressive and she will attack other dogs, I will take them back to the room and then you can take her.... I can not think of another word to describe her but stupid.
Sorry, they just need to screen better before they even let him into the vet tech program.
But my vet is pretty old school. Sometimes this is a problem, as I've had to educate them on some issues my dogs have. Sometimes it is a benefit, as in the cases above--my dogs are more comfortable having me there with them.
Sosuke's only ever had shots and exams, and he's been fine. Not sure if he'd be worse without me there because it's never happened. I don't think Sosuke's very wild, for a kai, though.
Or the time my parents took Bailey to the vet and the vet gave her all these expensive treatments with no one's consent. She didn't even last the rest of the day, the poor girl. She was such a good dog.
Or yet another vet who practically botched a surgery for Ramm. He had broken part of his leg when he tripped on his leash going up the brick stairs. The vet gave him a faulty pin in his knee. I'm sure he wouldn't have suffered so much in his last years if it had been done right.
Honestly that's a reason I want to become a vet, preventing such malpractices and to care for my own pets.
Tyson didn't do anything wrong. What happened sucks, yes, and indeed the situation could have been worse but it's not. I would bite someone too if I had strangers muzzle and tackle me. So what if he bit? The company should cover the medical expense, period. I'd be pissed off that they pushed my dog's threshold that far...now he knows that he can bite people to make bad things go away. That may set him back with his people socialization (at least when associated with the vet), especially if he is already leery of strangers.
I'd also be upset that they contacted Animal Control, considering that he was being handled by a vet tech AT the vet hospital. I find this very disturbing and wrong of them. When you apply to work in at a vet, you understand and agree to the terms that you will be exposed and/or handling animals that might bite or stratch you. When you are working with animals, these things can and DO happen! It is not just limited to the vet but working at pet boarding facilities, rescues and so forth. However, ESPECIALLY, at the vet...they had no right to contact Animal Control. The dog was provoked to bite. They should have contacted you immediately considering his behavior before it progressed any further. They are idiots for not having done so and have suffered the consequence of the bite and losing a good client.
I'm very sorry this situation happened to Ty. I'm glad things will be "okay". I really hope that Ty won't be holding a grudge and will overcome this. Dave, I totally agree with trusting your gut! When considering your dogs and safety, it's highly important! Hang in there man...I hope you can find a competent vet & staff. It sounds like other things in your life are going well for you - that's GREAT!
By the way, I absolutely LOVE your dogs' new playground!
Even though she is not considered a holistic vet, she is incredibly amazing and so open to what the dogs are feeling and telling her. The first time I went to see her, when she wanted to take blood, I asked her to let me hold Bella's paw so she would not freak out, and she said 'Sure, go ahead. I am sure she would rather you hold her than some crazy lady with a needle." DUH! That makes total sense. And when I was able to hold Bella's paw and keep her head on the opposite side of my body, the blood draw was quick, painless, and stress free on everyone's part. If I had not been able to hold B's paw and keep her head away from it, she would have screamed bloody murder, struggled, and hurt herself and/or the vet.
I love my dogs. And I know that on occasion, there will be a need to cause discomfort for their overall well being. If I can do whatever I can to cause that discomfort to be as minimal and stress free as possible, I will do it. And luckily, I have a vet that understands the bond between dog and owner and how that can relate to medical procedures.
I truly do wish that everyone here could have a vet as totally awesome and incredibly amazing as I have. But I know that a REALLY good vet (not just in technical standards, but in emotional standards as well) can be pretty hard to find these days.
Koda didn't bite anyone, but my neighbor lied to animal control. Just to let everyone know.
I'm with Brad, Kais are so good, and when you love the breed, you tend to glorify them. But with both Koda and Mei, they go pherill (?sp) in a second. There's this "wildness" that's always there and they can snap in a split second. A couple times I think Koda even forgot who I was.
Mei definitely would've bitten the tech for bear hugging her, picking her up, or putting a muzzle on her. I do muzzle her before vet visits, but I never let anyone restrain her. She would flip.
@brada1878 I still can't pick Mei up. She would nip me for sure for doing that! Koda on the other hand likes to climb in my arms like my 55 pd. baby.
PS Total thread steal, but glad to hear there are still Mochi sightings!