complications after neutering

Well, it seems to be just my luck. Oskar was neutered exactly a month ago, and had not problems whatsoever. he didn't even lick at the incisions.

Then yesterday, we noticed it looked like he hadn't been neutered...the scrotum was filled up again. I took him in this morning, and yes, he had bleeding into the scrotum, and they aspirated quite a bit of bloody fluid out of it. The vet said it was very unusual to see it this late after the neutering, but...He also felt that he didn't need to know more than aspirate it at that time, because the blood was dark, so didn't look like very fresh--he said he'd be more concerned if the blood was brighter, thus showing that it was still bleeding.

We were hoping it wouldn't come back. I took him in at 9 am. Now, at 6:30, it's already half again as full. he doesn't seem to be in any pain. He had a slight fever at the vet, but that's it. They said if it refills we might have to put a drain in which I am less than excited about given that it will need to be flushed, and I'm supposed to be leaving for Germany in a week.

Just my luck, which always seems to bad with canine health.

Anyway, I wondered if anyone else had run into this and had any tips for me, or things I should be concerned about/ask the vet about.

Guess I know what I'll be doing tomorrow morning.

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Comments

  • Uggg. I'm sorry to hear that. I've got no experience with these things, and therefore no advice to give. We're sending you good vibes though!
  • I'm more and more against neutering. I was told I may have weakened kodas cl from neutering him.

    I'm sorry he's not doing well. I know how stressful it is.

    Get well Oskar!! Were all sending you healing vibes!!
  • edited July 2011
    Sorry to hear that. I know of a few people who spayed their bitches and had some hormone-related complications: one wished he never spayed her because the cost of the estrogen therapy exceeds the licence of keeping an intact dog. The other one has spay inconsistency (as in piddle in her sleep), and thus need supplement her diet with tofu. It's kind of a pain for him because he got 3 other dogs that he need to teach not to eat tofu.

    Hope Oskar will get better.

    I am looking at canine vasectomy for mine. The hardest part is finding a vet who isn't brainwashed by the whole "castrated dogs are better-behaved dogs" mantra.
  • I'm kind of freaking out because the timing is so damn bad. Both me and the vet will be out of town next week. I just can't see putting in a drain and then me leaving him with someone else. Frankly, I don't know if I could flush the drain out myself--it was hard enough flushing the drains in a 40 pound Shiba, let alone a 109 pound Akita. I certainly can't expect my housesitter to do it. And I'm equally concerned if he has to have another surgery (I've read that sometimes they remove the scrotum entirely to stop this problem), as I can't see leaving a post-op dog with a dogsitter.

    Ugh.

    And why is he bleeding in the first place? I know that there could have been problems with poorly cauterized blood vessels or something, but that would have showed up when he first had the surgery, I would think, not a month later. Same with if he had a clotting disorder--I would think they would have noticed it during the surgery.

    Well, at least he isn't bothered by it. He doesn't seem to notice it at all, and he's certainly normal in terms of wanting to play (which I'm not letting him do) and his appetite, etc.
  • You could delay any surgery until after you return. Can your house sitter give antibiotics?
  • Yes, she could do that. I wonder if that would stop the bleeding into the scrotum though? Or if there is a way to do that until I get back? I guess I'll find out when I'm back to the vet bright and early tomorrow. It's a good question though. It may be that I'm just freaking out and this is not as bad as I think.



  • Sorry to hear about Oskar's problem. Hope it will clear up soon.
  • I'm so sorry. I wish I could be there to help you. I would stay and clean his drain. Trust me, I know what it's like to be scared to leave your dog with anyone. I'm paranoid to even have Koda outside of the house right now for potty walks.

    Could you board at a vet's office? It's not ideal for him, but he'd be safe and if something happened they could deal with it. I know it's probably expensive though.
  • Thanks Tara. Hey, what's the relationship between Koda's CL and the neutering? I'm starting to feel like neutering is often NOTnecessary either. Ugh. I do wish I hadn't done it.

    I took Oskar back this morning and they're putting a drain in. I don't know much more until after the vet aspirates it again and sees what he's looking at....he was wondering how much blood was in there vs. other kinds of fluid. I asked what could cause it, and he mentioned the usual things, noting that not every single blood vessel gets cauterized, and that too much activity could cause this, but again, that he's never seen it start so far from the actual neutering.

    I asked him he saw any unusual bleeding with the surgery, as Akitas are susceptible to Von Willebrand's disease, a clotting disorder, and he said he did not. I did remind him that Oskar's broken toe nail bled quite a bit and kept reopening weeks after the fact, and that gave him pause. From my very hurried and cursory reading of Von Willebrand's, it seems that one of the odd things about it is that dogs don't show a problem with clotting every time. We probably should have tested for it before the surgery, but I didn't ask for the pre-op blood work. Of course, now I wish I'd done that too, though that may not be the problem (it is something I will have him tested for though).

    I don't know what we'll do in terms of the trip. Need to find out what's going on, first. I could have boarded him with the vet, but they are out of town too. I know a dog breeder who has worked with injured animals who may be able to help, so I'll talk to her too. It will be expensive if I have to have her come up here, but it is at least an option.




  • Poor Oskar. And poor you. I can only imagine how stressful this is. Hopefully Oskar will be just fine and will heal up quickly.

    Will you be getting the blood test done now to test for Von Willebrand's?

    Now, I am going to hijack your thread for a minute...

    Can someone explain why canine vasectomies would be look down upon versus neutering? Would it be a more or a less invasive surgery? Are there cases where the vasectomies have spontaneously reversed?

    I am quite curious, because I have never had a male dog before (permanently, that is, I have had male fosters). And if I were to obtain a male dog, I would be more interested in the vasectomy versus the full neuter for the reasons mentioned in previous threads.
  • @Sunyata - A vasectomy would likely be less invasive, however I have heard stories about women with tied tubes getting pregnant. There is supposedly a 1% chance of a vasectomy failing due to sloppy work. However, many people seem to neuter and spay their animals to "calm them down". Thus, a vasectomy would be pointless in that aspect, since the hormones would still be produced. I just read part of an article that says that dogs may live 30% longer when NOT altered, though. I'll post it here:

    http://forums.petdocsoncall.com/entry.php?69-Vasectomies-for-Dogs
  • edited July 2011
    @sunyata My cat Gio had a vasectomy. They used a laser to cautorize the tubes. It was a total success. Ofcourse with male cats you worry about them reaching maturity and spraying in your house. The grossest thing a pet can do. He didn't have any of that, and when my female cat came into season way too early for her age, he had no desire to even be around her. The problem is that not many vets do it for whatever reason. Gio had it because he was a pound cat and a vet was practicing the new technique. This was 12 years ago. He would take the cats from the shelter and use them to experiment per se.

    @shibamistress PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep us posted on how today goes. As far as your question about the ligament. Since the rise of neuters in the US, there has also been a rise in cruciate ligament tears. We are also the leading nation in neutering and tears. A group of orthopedic surgeons/vets did a study to see if there was a positive correlation between the two, and what they found was that neutered males had much weaker ligaments than unneutered males with a higher rate of injury.
  • Poor Oskar I'm keeping him in my thoughts Hope he does well.

  • @tjbart17 - In that study, how did they measure weakness? I'm curious, because from a study design perspective it is very difficult to establish non-spuriousness in these types of situations. In this case, the rise in the number of cruciate injuries that correlated with the rise in the frequency of neutering could have come as a result of increased diagnostic power or a more involved dog owner population that sought medical care for their dogs more frequently. In other words, it may not actually be an increase in the number of cruciate ligament injuries, it may be an increase in the number of *REPORTED* cruciate ligament injuries. It's tough to tell without reading the actual study.

    @shibamistress - I know how tough it can be to go out of town when you have a dog that needs some special attention. I've gotten practiced at it, but it doesn't get any easier. I always board my dogs at the vet due to Lucy's special needs. I leave them extremely detailed instructions and I call at least twice a day (when possible) to check in. I always ask to speak to the tech that is taking care of Lucy, not get a second hand message relayed from the front desk staff. I know the thought that your vet will be travelling is unsettling, but boarding Osakar at the vet's office is more about him being watched by trained vet tech's than having quick access to a veterinary doctor. Even if the vet isn't in the office, the vet techs will know if/when Oskar needs attention and be able to get it for him.

    Also, if you're traveling internationally, there are a number of free options for making phone calls. I use google talk (that's integrated into gmail) and can get both incoming calls and make outgoing calls. The incoming calls are routed through my google voice number. I use it extensively when travelling internationally, and it doesn't cost me a penny (outside the cost of internet access which I'd be paying for anyway).
  • @dlroberts I don't want to completely steal the thread, but I will admit I did not read the full 165 page study. It was mentioned by the surgeon and so I started googling it. I could only get to an abstract and I'm not a member of the library I found it on. Unfortunately I can not cite the study, but I can cite what the surgeon said. Somehow it was deduced that the the decrease in hormones made the ligaments less strong.
  • @tjbart17 - Send me the name and I'll get the study from the NCSU library if you're interested. :-)
  • I think the "hijacks" are useful, actually, as it is talking about neutering and possible complications from it. It's helping me think through my thoughts on this more too, especially now that I'm waiting for the vet to call with an update! So hijack away! :)

    I had also seen a study that talked about decrease in hormones possibly effecting ligaments. I don't remember more about that either, but I believe what I saw was just referring to another study and didn't quote the original or talk about methodology.

    Update: I just got the call from the vet. They feel like we've got a good chance of getting this taken care of relatively quickly. They took out 15-20 ccs of bloody fluid, but when she was putting in the drain, she did see that up near the body, most of the scrotum was thickened with scar tissues, as we want, so wer'e talking about a small pocket now. She put two drains in and a compression bandage over it, and feels pretty confident we can get this drained and gone by Monday. We'll need to keep him still of course, so he'll be crated for the weekend.

    She said she's puzzled as to why it happened, but it seems to be similar to what happens to dogs who have too much exercise right after surgery. He was kept still for two weeks, but has been pretty active in the last two weeks, when we thought it was ok, but obviously, in his case, it just wasn't.

    She said she saw no sign of excessive bleeding, but we're going to test for VonWillebrand's anyway, just to be safe. I talked about what I'd read, and she said she had minimal experience with it in vet school, which was almost 30 years ago, and has not had a case of it since, so knows little about it. It will be something for both of us to be educated about I guess. I'm hoping it will be, for me, one of those things I'll learn a bit about but never need to use!

    And we're hoping to take the drains out on Monday.

    One of the complications of my vet is that they are out of town about a week out of the month, but since it is a husband/wife team, they close up the practice when they are gone, so leaving him there is not even an option. I'd have to find another vet, like VCA who does medical boarding. I hate them, but if I have to I have to. I'm hoping I can avoid it though.

    @Dave, thanks for the google talk tip, too. I'll check into that. It was another worry--that I'd be out of communication range.

    Anyway, I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about this, but poor Oskar! They said he was very much a gentleman. They only used a sedative and novocain, and said he was very cooperative, if scared. And now he has drains in his scrotum and a big elizabethan collar, and they took him out to pee, and he just didn't know what to be more upset about--the cone or the stuff in his junk. Poor boy!
  • Well this is really good news! I do hope he gets better so you don't have to worry. I would be a mess. I've become completely emotional. So much so that I'm not working worrying about Oskar. Poor big ol' puppy Oskar with tubes.

    I can say that I had drain tubes in my face in April. They were odd, but didn't hurt. Ofcourse they weren't in my groin, but they still didn't hurt.

    @dlroberts Yeah!!! I may actually have you pull up a couple of studies. There's also another one on 14 dogs who were diagnosed with CL tears that went into surgery, and I think only 4 actually had tears. I have to go back and find the studies. I've been overloading myself with information.
  • Awwwww. Poor Oskar. Give him a big 'ol hug from me (even if he has no clue who I am :-)).

    Tara: Just email me the titles and journals of the articles you need, I'd be happy to get them for you. :-) (you've got my email address right?)
  • yeah, Toby had drains for....more than 2 months. (Luckily the memory of that awful spring of 08 is fading, so I can't remember how long the drains were in for now). He was fine with them, but they were also not so badly placed (Oskar will be sitting on them every time he tries to sit). My vet told me that while they wouldn't do this, they could technically leave them in long after the pocket has drained, and the scrotum would just shrink up (as we want it to) and it would be no harm done, though it might be a little painful when we tried to get the drain out. I wish I hadn't so much experience with drains, but I'm afraid I have. :(

    In your face though! Yikes! That sounds awful! My husband just told me a horror story about having one is knee that grew over and was very painful when the pulled it, but otherwise, didn't bother him while it was in.
  • Another update:

    Well, I got Oskar home earlier this afternoon. He doesn't seem to be bothered by the drain, which is not big, and I watched them flush it pretty easily at the vets (he didn't appear to notice it was happening). It will be a struggle for me, though, because he doesn't sit still well (or lay down and be still) , so this will be a bit difficult, and I'm supposed to do it twice a day.

    Poor boy, though, between the giant cone and the bandage on his scrotum, he just doesnt know what to do, and he wouldn't pee outside. Then a friend came over, and he started with a little excitement pee then just peed a ton in his crate. I don't think he'd peed all day. And he doesn't like being in the crate all day, but he really needs to be still.

    I also got quite a bit of info on VonWillebrand's. My vet looked some stuff up since we last talked, and agreed that it was certainly something we should test for, given that they read what I'd come across, which is that it is tricky, and he may not show excessive bleeding one time (say in surgery) and yet still have it and show clotting problems another time. We're going to get the test done--we all agreed that it was best to know, one way or the other.

    In the meantime, I hope I can manage to flush the drains. My husband's leaving on Saturday, so it will be tough just doing it with one person, but the vet said I can bring him in, and they'll even come in on Sunday, if necessary, to do it, if I can't do it by myself.
  • Good boy Oskar. It's always nice when our dogs keep such a positive attitude through things that make us feel so bad. Give him some extra scratches. :-)
  • Glad that Oskar does not seem too fazed by it all.

    What a GOOD BOY! :)
  • Glad he doesn't seem to realize it's happening. Hopefully this will be all over soon and he can be the happy go lucky Akita that he is :)
  • edited July 2011
    Oh, the trauma. Or drama. Oskar doesn't seem to be in pain from the drain, but he's oh, so unhappy about wearing the cone, but the minute we take it off, he's trying to take off his bandages, so it has to stay. But we're having a hard time getting his bandage to stay, so I decided to take a tip from a thread here (I think when Gen's dog was in heat?) and put a pair of underwear on Oskar to help keep the bandage in place.

    I'm not sure if this photo will work, since it's a FB photo, but I'll try:

    Oskar


    Poor Oskar! He hates it, but has resigned himself to the great indignities.

    (link here if pic doesn't show up: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150256915113195&set=a.10150230310293195.322199.545233194&type=1&theater
  • How is Oskar?
  • edited July 2011
    He's ok. I took him in this morning to have the vet flush the wounds, and they thought it looked good and the pocket was smaller. I was worried because last night I tried to have a look at it and he freaked out every time I tried to touch it, and I thought it hurt, but it was clear it doesn't (they flushed it and probed the wound today and he didn't even notice). It's not producing nearly as much fluid, which is good. He's more freaked out by the wierd way we have to attach a bandage (with tape, basically), and was terrified of being lifted on the table (he peed AND let go with his anal glands, poor boy).

    The vet would like to leave the drain in until mid week, but I'm leaving on Weds, so we'll likely take the drain out on Tues. We're figuring out back up plans in case anything goes wrong, and their vet tech lives near me and may come in and take a look while' I'm gone (this is why I love this vet--they come in on Sunday. The vet tech will do a housecall in extraordinary situations).

    We still don't know why it happened of course. When I get back, we're going to do the test for Von Willebrand's just in case--it would be best to know.

  • I'm glad he's doing better. Koda acts weird with me touching him too when he's hurt, but he did well with three different vets doing the drawer test on him. I think they can just get weirded out by their family probing them.

    Your vet sounds awesome!! Maybe Koda and I should move. ;-)
  • Sorry you had to deal with complications. Rakka has had drains in twice and they were such a pain. Hopefully everything clears up with no further problems.
  • Just got back from the vet, and they took the drain out. Other than the fact that Oskar has bashed his cone to smithereens and we had to get a new one (he just rams it against anything in his way), everything looks good. They'll do one more check tomorrow, and I'll leave the cone on him for a couple of days while I'm gone, but he won't need anymore care. Even in the worst case scenario (the scrotum fills up with fluid again) he can wait to have it take care of when I get back. But given that very little fluid came out overnight, they suspect that won't happen, thankfully.

    Poor Oskar! But I'm so thankful he's on the mend. And he's so good at the vet even though he's terrified. The worst struggles are getting him in the door and getting him on the table.
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