I'll be interested in hearing what other people think about this too. My thoughts are very unformed right now, because I have a hazy definition of how NILIF really works. I suppose I use a version of it occasionally: everyone must sit before getting dinner/treats/going outside, etc. And the dogs do offer sits for things. But I'm certainly not very strict about it, and I wasn't even sure what the writer meant when she said that it can make a dog's life very controlled and not leave them time to be a dog, because I'm not sure how NILIF trainers use the technique beyond things like asking for a sit before a dog gets access to a resource.
That said, I've always felt a little uneasy when I hear people talk about being very firmly in the NILIF camp, because these same people sometimes use language that suggests to me they're following a version of the pack leader/alpha idea, which I of course do not agree with. I'm not clear enough on NILIF to understand if that is always the case--in the comments following the article it suggest the two don't necessarily have to go together. Perhaps I've just run into people who tend to use both; hence my uneasiness.
Anyway, I'll be interested in hearing others thoughts and I may have to do some more reading on NILIF now....
NILIF sounds like 'Dog Whisperer Extreme Edition'. I have recently started using a new method with Yoshi which incorporates some similar techniques. Our dogs basically have the run of our home and are treated as members of the family, albeit with some structure...namely two meals, multiple trail/park walks, yard excercise and play times throughout the day.
What has changed? Primarily the 'bad habit' portions of their daily life...
Yoshi must now sit or lay in the other room while we are eating; he was used to sitting very close someone, or in some cases, with his head on your lap and a begging look in his eyes, or, even better, staking out the area under the kids chairs, knowing they drop the 'mostest tastiest bits'.
Yoshi must now sit a few feet from the door whenever anyone goes in or out; and on walks, if something gets too much of his attention (ie, bicycles, etc) I stop and make him sit calmly through additional exposure. The walk now becomes a reward for sitting nicely when I was getting ready to go.
I have to say; he is responding extremely well, and I don't need to yell, or even talk at all, just point and use my body to direct him. It is definitely a work in progress; and in some cases I am patiently resetting him to a seated position where I have asked him to be several times, but he gets the idea quick enough. There are some stimulie which require a lot more attempts; and if he becomes vocal in his frustration at being made to sit, I move towards him until he backs up, then stand and wait for him to sit on his own, etc.
I have since taken food in the course of being eaten and set it on the floor a few feet from him and he does not go after it; instead, he looks to me for direction, guessing he is acknowledging the food as mine. Before...well, lets just say he is very quick, and chances are, if you drop it, it won't even touch the ground.
I have opened both the main and screen doors to the yard at walk and playtime and he does not dart out; instead, he waits until I snap on the leash or tell him 'ok' and start to walk out. I had an issue the other day where for some reason he was extremely distracted while sitting looking out the door; I kept an eye on him and snapped my fingers whenever he looked about to break his seated position. On the seventh or so correction I went to have a look out the door...turns out the neighbours cats were seated twenty feet out on the grass! Here I thought he was slipping back to his old habit of wanting to be first out...turns out he was actually showing marked restraint, as he loves/hates cats.
Other than that...he still gets all his old perks; the kids do tricks and treats with him, I do gestures and silent praise.
Not exactly NILIF or the Dog Whisperer, but hey, he is happy, and becoming better behaved every day!
Hmm... It is an interesting article. And honestly, I did not know that NILIF was supposed to be so constraining. And the strict way that the article describes NILIF does seem a bit cruel and consuming for the dogs. However, stressful... I am not sure I buy that.
I guess most of us use some sort of modified version of it. For me, the dogs must sit before being let outside. They must sit or do some other command before being given a treat. They must ask to be let up on the couch (this seems to only work some of the time...). However, for every day things, such as a nylabone, antler, toy, food (I free feed them), etc., they can get it whenever they want it. There is no asking special permission or having to do a series of commands. It is on the floor or in the toy box, they know where it is and can grab it whenever they want it.
However... I now have a new favourite phrase from that article: "It works because of the principles of learning, not because of any hocus pocus alpha mind control leadership hokum."
I agree with Rina, I think most constructive training methods and tools can be used in an abusive way but are acceptable in moderation.
This article got my attention because a few weeks back I kinda had a similar feeling about NILIF. I was thinking how it kinda takes the fun out of life for the dog - and I prefer to keep training fun, ya know?
But, I've also seen it's value in dogs who lack impulse control. The regimented routines do help, I feel, with teaching dogs some patience and to control their impulses - which is a helpful thing with many breed, like the Shikoku (Kaiju). However, I think you can achieve this with just a few training sessions a day, or without going too over-the-top with NILIF... Ya know, so it's still fun for the dog.
At the end of the day, each dog is different and each owner has different goals for their dog...
For example, I need Luytiy to sit before almost anything otherwise he will bolt through a door or fence and run me or other dogs over.
I don't *have* to do that at all with Blue tho, he never runs over dogs or people, but with Blue he LOVES the training. So we have him sit and wait for his food and treats, because he loves to work.
Then their's Parka, we want to keep his PPD instincts, and there is no better way to crush those instincts then to make PPD work for everything - PP work requires a lot of impulse (and good judgment), so you don't want to squash it by having him have a nice default sit for everything. When he is older, you can introduce those behaviors, but as a pup it's likely to kill his PPD instincts later. So, if you meet Parka, don't expect him to be well behaved... Just ask Dave and Candice. LOL @dlroberts
I am not sure what NILIF stands for, the article didn't mention it, but the premack principal is ubiquitous. It is neither constricting nor negative, but it does provide structure.
The typical scenario in which it is consciously applied in my daily life is with young autistics. By using a now/then chart a child can realize that we are all aware of what they want and it is in the plan for them to get it. But other things also need to get accomplished - fact of life.
It is less consciously used by any of us to complete a less preferred activity. If I mow the lawn now I will better enjoy a beer on my patio this evening, etc. It is a communication and impulse control tool.
It is a fact of life that a well behaved dog has more freedom, not less. It is also a fact of life that dogs are hierarchical creatures who are less nervous when someone is clearly in charge. Some will willing take this responsibility themselves if otherwise left unfilled. While power does seem to corrupt, being in charge is not the same as being oppressive (although many in leadership roles have neglected to read this memo).
It was news to me that the premack principal had become a training technique that some could be applied adversively. People never cease to amaze me!
Some people control their dogs with kibbles. As in, the dog doesn't eat unless it behaves-- one kibble at a time. It's not a bad concept, but for some people they never wean off of it and relies on it as a crutch to keep their dog under control. At some point, you need to bridge the transition of teaching your dog impulse control without the NILIF technique. Hence the controversy.
I would less call that teaching impulse control than despotism, Souggy. No "dog" training technique is a sure fix for the nature of the "trainer".
Today the dog world is flooded with info, but I guess people choose what appeals to them nonetheless. A person who does not comprehend bonding and trust may learn this, and spend a life time turning popular "positive" training techniques into adversives. I dont believe there is species specific dog training as much as individually designed programs. The typical horse may have a tendency to flight, but so do some dogs and children, and some horses dont. Like Brad was saying, you need to know and understand your subject to succeed.
Call me lazy, but I am not going to keep up any "training" efforts once the dog is meeting the goals of the training or if the training is not progressing toward my goals. However my goal is not to be the "boss" or to "control", but to be able to go out in the world with my dog without the stress of inappropriate behavior. I am not really a trainer, but an "environmental manager" so that my dogs habituate behaviors I feel result in mutual serenity and dont get the chance to habituate stressful behaviors - like cmpteki describes about her mealtimes. I throw in a bit of "zone of proximal development (ZPD)" planning, which is managing the environment to accommodate the level of precision the dog is ready achieve as Brad described with Parka. When I was showing dogs in obedience, my goals were more precise, but it was the same path. Now I just want my dogs to feel comfortable in the world and the world to feel comfortable with my dogs, with a bit of discrimination for household protection thrown in. Some dogs need impulse control techniques, others dont.
When I taught dog training classes (not because it was my profession, but b/c my pathetic skills were the only alternative to a woman too fat to stand up preaching the techniques of Koehler and damning the dogs who did not respond well - I quit as soon as someone else stepped in to fill this void) I actually ended up with a little fan club, but they were people who already knew there was a better way and were merely grateful that someone had somewhat pulled it together for them - not that my methods changed any of the trainers.
It is actually the people who consistently take what is lovely and cram it into boxes of unpleasantness that inspire my belief in reincarnation. I am an optimist and so it must always work out in the end. If I can facilitate this journey for another, I do - but mostly I know my limitations and I still have sooooo much to fix in myself.
Jan, I liked your post. I really liked the part about " I am not really a trainer, but an 'environmental manager' so that my dogs habituate behaviors I feel result in mutual serenity and dont get the chance to habituate stressful behaviors." I am mostly like this myself. I want my dogs to learn certain things so we can interact well. Sometimes I want to go on with training if it is fun for us both, as I thought agility would be for my GSD until the aversive training methods (this was years ago) undermined everything.
It is also a good reminder to me that people can ruin even things that are good, and I loved your first line as well: "No "dog" training technique is a sure fix for the nature of the "trainer"" so much so that I think it could become a mantra--it really is true, isn't it?
That said, I do tend to believe that some methods are better than others, and mostly, in my mind, what is important is that the method not do harm. I realized that my philosophy of dog training is very close to what herbalists and holistic healers believe: first, do not do harm, and use the gentlest, least invasive treatment first. And of course,look at the whole being. I suppose it's no surprise I'm also very drawn to holistic health!
I'm still not entirely clear what a "nasty" version of NILIF would look like, but if it was too, well, despotic, I wouldn't be in favor of it. I suppose the example Souggy used might be a despotic example of NILIF.
Like others have said, some aspects of NILIF are useful tools, and I'm willing to use a variety of tools as long as they don't harm my dog.
And a question Jan, just out of curiosity: what IS the 3rd sunniest city in the US?
I don't have anything against kibble component of NILIF. It's what I did to reinforce the recall command with the Vallhund since he lacks impulse control. Then I wean off of it once he learned his boundaries.
Now I control his impulse drive with the privilege of being off-leash. For example: right now we are working on if he cross that road without looking both way or without my permission, back on the leash he goes.
It's a good method for establishing frameworks. It worked for my old Shiba too-- well, recall was something we never expected from him in this case since he never caused any troubles.
However if you can't handle the dog without the NILIF technique after they learn what is appropriate and what isn't, then you really don't have any control over the dog ie. the only time the dog does do a perfect recall is on an empty stomach.
Ha! My shibas have never had a perfect recall, empty stomach or no. In fact, they pretty much don't have a recall at all, though at the moment, Mr. Chow Hound, Toby, will come almost all the time if I say "cookie" so that works for us! But I have no illusions that I have much control over the Shibas!
Yeah-- the Shiba would only come if you threaten to leave him outside when he refused to come back inside and the clock is ticking to go to work; that and the word "pancake" which really means syrup, not the actual pancake. (He didn't come back after the first time we offered him pancake without the syrup.)
"I realized that my philosophy of dog training is very close to what herbalists and holistic healers believe: first, do not do harm, and use the gentlest, least invasive treatment first. What is important is that the method not do harm." Thanks!
I don't really follow the NILIF is free things but I do use it to an extent with pups or disobedient dogs. Conker for example learned to stay away from the door and sit before going in/out. If he didn't sit the door wasn't opened so he didn't get to go in/out. With Juneau, it's: If you snark at other dogs at the dog park we go home. All three dogs have to sit before they get their food, and they have to wait until I tell them it's okay to eat. That and making them go through the door nicely are about all that I do now.
Off-leash stuff with Conker is, if he doesn't listen when I tell him to do something he goes on the leash. Once he is doing better he can go back off-leash. Today on our hike Conker was being a buttface the entire way up so he didn't get to be off-leash on the way down. I think he understood since as soon as he realized the leash wasn't coming off he acted a lot better and did as he was told.
I guess in that sense he has to work for his freedom. If he wants to be off-leash he's gotta be good.
Comments
That said, I've always felt a little uneasy when I hear people talk about being very firmly in the NILIF camp, because these same people sometimes use language that suggests to me they're following a version of the pack leader/alpha idea, which I of course do not agree with. I'm not clear enough on NILIF to understand if that is always the case--in the comments following the article it suggest the two don't necessarily have to go together. Perhaps I've just run into people who tend to use both; hence my uneasiness.
Anyway, I'll be interested in hearing others thoughts and I may have to do some more reading on NILIF now....
What has changed? Primarily the 'bad habit' portions of their daily life...
Yoshi must now sit or lay in the other room while we are eating; he was used to sitting very close someone, or in some cases, with his head on your lap and a begging look in his eyes, or, even better, staking out the area under the kids chairs, knowing they drop the 'mostest tastiest bits'.
Yoshi must now sit a few feet from the door whenever anyone goes in or out; and on walks, if something gets too much of his attention (ie, bicycles, etc) I stop and make him sit calmly through additional exposure. The walk now becomes a reward for sitting nicely when I was getting ready to go.
I have to say; he is responding extremely well, and I don't need to yell, or even talk at all, just point and use my body to direct him. It is definitely a work in progress; and in some cases I am patiently resetting him to a seated position where I have asked him to be several times, but he gets the idea quick enough. There are some stimulie which require a lot more attempts; and if he becomes vocal in his frustration at being made to sit, I move towards him until he backs up, then stand and wait for him to sit on his own, etc.
I have since taken food in the course of being eaten and set it on the floor a few feet from him and he does not go after it; instead, he looks to me for direction, guessing he is acknowledging the food as mine. Before...well, lets just say he is very quick, and chances are, if you drop it, it won't even touch the ground.
I have opened both the main and screen doors to the yard at walk and playtime and he does not dart out; instead, he waits until I snap on the leash or tell him 'ok' and start to walk out. I had an issue the other day where for some reason he was extremely distracted while sitting looking out the door; I kept an eye on him and snapped my fingers whenever he looked about to break his seated position. On the seventh or so correction I went to have a look out the door...turns out the neighbours cats were seated twenty feet out on the grass!
Other than that...he still gets all his old perks; the kids do tricks and treats with him, I do gestures and silent praise.
Not exactly NILIF or the Dog Whisperer, but hey, he is happy, and becoming better behaved every day!
I guess most of us use some sort of modified version of it. For me, the dogs must sit before being let outside. They must sit or do some other command before being given a treat. They must ask to be let up on the couch (this seems to only work some of the time...). However, for every day things, such as a nylabone, antler, toy, food (I free feed them), etc., they can get it whenever they want it. There is no asking special permission or having to do a series of commands. It is on the floor or in the toy box, they know where it is and can grab it whenever they want it.
However... I now have a new favourite phrase from that article:
"It works because of the principles of learning, not because of any hocus pocus alpha mind control leadership hokum."
This article got my attention because a few weeks back I kinda had a similar feeling about NILIF. I was thinking how it kinda takes the fun out of life for the dog - and I prefer to keep training fun, ya know?
But, I've also seen it's value in dogs who lack impulse control. The regimented routines do help, I feel, with teaching dogs some patience and to control their impulses - which is a helpful thing with many breed, like the Shikoku (Kaiju). However, I think you can achieve this with just a few training sessions a day, or without going too over-the-top with NILIF... Ya know, so it's still fun for the dog.
At the end of the day, each dog is different and each owner has different goals for their dog...
For example, I need Luytiy to sit before almost anything otherwise he will bolt through a door or fence and run me or other dogs over.
I don't *have* to do that at all with Blue tho, he never runs over dogs or people, but with Blue he LOVES the training. So we have him sit and wait for his food and treats, because he loves to work.
Then their's Parka, we want to keep his PPD instincts, and there is no better way to crush those instincts then to make PPD work for everything - PP work requires a lot of impulse (and good judgment), so you don't want to squash it by having him have a nice default sit for everything. When he is older, you can introduce those behaviors, but as a pup it's likely to kill his PPD instincts later. So, if you meet Parka, don't expect him to be well behaved... Just ask Dave and Candice. LOL @dlroberts
----
And training should be fun. For all parties involved.
The typical scenario in which it is consciously applied in my daily life is with young autistics. By using a now/then chart a child can realize that we are all aware of what they want and it is in the plan for them to get it. But other things also need to get accomplished - fact of life.
It is less consciously used by any of us to complete a less preferred activity. If I mow the lawn now I will better enjoy a beer on my patio this evening, etc. It is a communication and impulse control tool.
It is a fact of life that a well behaved dog has more freedom, not less. It is also a fact of life that dogs are hierarchical creatures who are less nervous when someone is clearly in charge. Some will willing take this responsibility themselves if otherwise left unfilled. While power does seem to corrupt, being in charge is not the same as being oppressive (although many in leadership roles have neglected to read this memo).
It was news to me that the premack principal had become a training technique that some could be applied adversively. People never cease to amaze me!
Some people control their dogs with kibbles. As in, the dog doesn't eat unless it behaves-- one kibble at a time. It's not a bad concept, but for some people they never wean off of it and relies on it as a crutch to keep their dog under control. At some point, you need to bridge the transition of teaching your dog impulse control without the NILIF technique. Hence the controversy.
Today the dog world is flooded with info, but I guess people choose what appeals to them nonetheless. A person who does not comprehend bonding and trust may learn this, and spend a life time turning popular "positive" training techniques into adversives. I dont believe there is species specific dog training as much as individually designed programs. The typical horse may have a tendency to flight, but so do some dogs and children, and some horses dont. Like Brad was saying, you need to know and understand your subject to succeed.
Call me lazy, but I am not going to keep up any "training" efforts once the dog is meeting the goals of the training or if the training is not progressing toward my goals. However my goal is not to be the "boss" or to "control", but to be able to go out in the world with my dog without the stress of inappropriate behavior. I am not really a trainer, but an "environmental manager" so that my dogs habituate behaviors I feel result in mutual serenity and dont get the chance to habituate stressful behaviors - like cmpteki describes about her mealtimes. I throw in a bit of "zone of proximal development (ZPD)" planning, which is managing the environment to accommodate the level of precision the dog is ready achieve as Brad described with Parka. When I was showing dogs in obedience, my goals were more precise, but it was the same path. Now I just want my dogs to feel comfortable in the world and the world to feel comfortable with my dogs, with a bit of discrimination for household protection thrown in. Some dogs need impulse control techniques, others dont.
When I taught dog training classes (not because it was my profession, but b/c my pathetic skills were the only alternative to a woman too fat to stand up preaching the techniques of Koehler and damning the dogs who did not respond well - I quit as soon as someone else stepped in to fill this void) I actually ended up with a little fan club, but they were people who already knew there was a better way and were merely grateful that someone had somewhat pulled it together for them - not that my methods changed any of the trainers.
It is actually the people who consistently take what is lovely and cram it into boxes of unpleasantness that inspire my belief in reincarnation. I am an optimist and so it must always work out in the end. If I can facilitate this journey for another, I do - but mostly I know my limitations and I still have sooooo much to fix in myself.
It is also a good reminder to me that people can ruin even things that are good, and I loved your first line as well: "No "dog" training technique is a sure fix for the nature of the "trainer"" so much so that I think it could become a mantra--it really is true, isn't it?
That said, I do tend to believe that some methods are better than others, and mostly, in my mind, what is important is that the method not do harm. I realized that my philosophy of dog training is very close to what herbalists and holistic healers believe: first, do not do harm, and use the gentlest, least invasive treatment first. And of course,look at the whole being. I suppose it's no surprise I'm also very drawn to holistic health!
I'm still not entirely clear what a "nasty" version of NILIF would look like, but if it was too, well, despotic, I wouldn't be in favor of it. I suppose the example Souggy used might be a despotic example of NILIF.
Like others have said, some aspects of NILIF are useful tools, and I'm willing to use a variety of tools as long as they don't harm my dog.
And a question Jan, just out of curiosity: what IS the 3rd sunniest city in the US?
Now I control his impulse drive with the privilege of being off-leash. For example: right now we are working on if he cross that road without looking both way or without my permission, back on the leash he goes.
It's a good method for establishing frameworks. It worked for my old Shiba too-- well, recall was something we never expected from him in this case since he never caused any troubles.
However if you can't handle the dog without the NILIF technique after they learn what is appropriate and what isn't, then you really don't have any control over the dog ie. the only time the dog does do a perfect recall is on an empty stomach.
But that's not the same as NILIF.
My new mantra is your words:
"I realized that my philosophy of dog training is very close to what herbalists and holistic healers believe: first, do not do harm, and use the gentlest, least invasive treatment first. What is important is that the method not do harm." Thanks!
With Juneau, it's: If you snark at other dogs at the dog park we go home.
All three dogs have to sit before they get their food, and they have to wait until I tell them it's okay to eat. That and making them go through the door nicely are about all that I do now.
Off-leash stuff with Conker is, if he doesn't listen when I tell him to do something he goes on the leash. Once he is doing better he can go back off-leash. Today on our hike Conker was being a buttface the entire way up so he didn't get to be off-leash on the way down. I think he understood since as soon as he realized the leash wasn't coming off he acted a lot better and did as he was told.
I guess in that sense he has to work for his freedom. If he wants to be off-leash he's gotta be good.