Wow, that was pretty interesting. At first I thought it might be a joke, because in the beginning they were so chill, doing Akita things (drinking, rolling, being lazy), but then I saw them in action.
It was interesting the way the dog acted, totally relaxed and calm until it looked like a command was given, and then it went after the guy in the suit. I know here we've discussed a lot that PPD dogs need to have the drive for it, so I may be wrong about this, but a schutzhund guy once told me they liked dogs for schutzhund that were otherwise calm, and who saw the whole thing as a game. (I know schutzhund is different than PPD too). Watching this reminded me of that, and also made me think about Oskar, who is a chill as can be, but could no doubt be trained to a sleeve if it was fun for him (his problem would be that he's so soft mouthed, we've had to work with him just to get him to play tug, because his he doesn't naturally hold on to anything like that. but we've been teaching him "hold it" so we can play tug games with him). I don't think I'm going into schutzhund, though I used to be quite interested in it, but this did make me think about it.
Hmm... That's pretty cool! Looks very sporty (like Lisa mentioned - schutzhund). The decoy put very little pressure on the dogs, I like to see how they react to some real pressure fro the decoy. And I heard some stressy barks coming from the fence-jump dog... but really, that was impressive for an Akita IMHO.
The part where he runs around the long way, instead of jumping over the fence, is such an Akita move. LOL
@ayk - Do you have any videos of Jindo doing this type of work?
I showed this to my friend who trains PPDs and she said this is the single best example of an Akita doing bite work she's ever seen. We've discussed how shitty-nervered the breed is a lot, so she was very pleased to see this (me too) .
Tho, she did agree that the decoy put very little pressure on the dogs. I'd love to see how they do under some pressure. They do seem legitimately like they want to F the dude up.
Kind of a digression (and kind of not) but I'm wondering what the difference in training would be for PPD work vs. sport (schutzhund) and if Akitas would be better suited to sport work? I know they're not great schutzhund dogs, but perhaps they'd be better suited to the game/sport aspect of it? I can't see them as PPDs except I suspect that there are some that would naturally be protective of family members, but that is different from PPD work. Also, when you say shitty nerved, do you mean fearful, easily scared, or not persistant, or?
I laughed out loud when you said it was such an Akita move to go around the fence. I thought so too, except my Akita would have to have figured out he could go around first....he'd likely just stop and stare at the fence otherwise, as he does very much like to do things one way!
One of the things i never hear people talk that much about, esp. when they are all caught up in the breed hype about dignity, aloofness, protectiveness, and all that bs, is they never seem to mention this: Akitas are a bit lazy, and they can be the biggest clowns ever. Doesn't do much for their reputation as bad ass dogs, but it does make them very endearing.
@shibamistress - I will try to answer your question about PPD vs. Protection Sport training. I'm not an expert tho.
Protection Sports and Schutzhund Protection Sports is a sport that has evolved from Schutzhund. Schutzhund was originally created as a test to choose military/police dogs in Germany. Dogs who moved on to be military or Police dogs had to pass the Schutzhund test. Schutzhund involves 3 parts: tracking, obedience, and bite work. In Schutzhund-based Protection Sports each dog is judged based on their ability to to do those 3 things, and then titles are given as they pass certain levels of the Schutzhund.
I think there is some competition aspect to Protection Sports as well, where dogs are compared to each other and a winner is chosen, but I am not clear on that part. I don't really do Protection Sports so I don't know.
There is also French Ring, which is another type of Protection Sport - where the decoy wears a full body suit. I don't know all thew rules that apply to that sport, so I'll remain mum on the details. @ShikokuSpirit can probably give more details on the rules of the sports.
In Schutzhund training there are a lot of "cues" for the dog, and those cues really represent the number one difference in training between PPD work and PP Sports. These cues act as markers for the dog, and prepare him/her for the work they're about to do. Generally, a police dog or PP Sports dog knows well in advance that he is about to bite something, because all the cues are in place to lead him to that conclusion. Since these cues exist during training and work, it allows the decoy and handler to train the dogs using more of their natural predatory instincts, which keeps the work fun for the dog.
For police and military dogs who have passed Schutzhund, they do start to get a good deal of pressure put on them, but the handler and decoy are always focused on keeping the dog moving between their predatory instincts and defensive instincts which reduce the overall stress the dogs will encounter (as they are always getting a "break" from the pressure by engaging their predatory instincts).
In a lot of ways, this is similar to the behavioral patterns Bay Dogs use - they are naturally switching between their predatory patterns and defensive patterns while they are baying large game. It's healthier for the dog overall (mentally and physically) as it works all of their natural preservation instincts (unlike a Catch Dog).
So, since Schutzhund and Protection Sports work the dogs using both predatory and defensive instincts, typically you look for a dog who has a really nice predatory instinct when selecting for a sport dog. A dog with a good predatory instinct will be easier to switch from a defensive reaction to a predatory reaction and therefore will appear to take more pressure from the decoy and will enjoy the work more. Schutzhund-type work really uses the dogs predatory instincts to an advantage, it's pretty ingenious, really. You can see how much they utilize the dog's predatory instincts by watching the dogs salivating as soon as they see the sleeve. The trainers have created such a powerful association there that the dogs salivate on sight of the bite-sleeve. In Schutzhund dogs are trained to only bite the sleeve on command. A bite on the sleeve w/o a command, or a bite on a person (not the sleeve) is a DQ.
The use of the dog's predatory behaviors and instincts makes it so almost any dog with a solid predatory instinct can be trained to do Schutzhund-type work, as Schutzhund requires basically no natural protective instinct from the dog. In police and military work, there is a bit more emphasis put on protective instincts, as they do need them to be able to Object Guard, but still, the bulk of the selection is for predatory instincts and working drive as OG can be trained.
Unfortunately, with the sport world becoming more and more popular, breeders who focus on producing dogs for that sport are selecting for "hyper-predators" - dogs who have been selected so strongly for their predatory instincts that they lack other qualities that make them easy to live with - they work great, but can't just chill out on the couch with you - no "off switch", as Dr. Dave would put it.
Personal Protection (Dog) Training In Personal Protection Training dogs are selected more for their "protective instincts", some people may call this "defensive drive", but IMHO that's an inaccurate label as a dog's defensive instincts include both flight and fight. Some people use the term "fight drive" too, but that too IMHO is a miss-label, as protecting something doesn't always involve fighting.
Anyway, essentially the difference between PPD work and Schutzhund-type work is that in PPD work you don't train the dog to bite. The bulk of PPD training is getting good OB on a dog and then building their confidence to protect while desensitizing them to pressure. The should have already been tested and proved they were willing to bite. Also, in PPD work dogs are not trained using cues the way they are in Schutzhund. So, there is less emphasis placed on predatory instincts because without the proper cue framework for building association it's hard to really utilized those behaviors in the same way they can be used in Schutzhund.
The reason why there is little or no cuing in PPD work is because the idea is that the dog will never know when or where a threat will come, and so it's impossible to train them using cues as there will be no clear consistent cue before they need to preform their role as a PPD. This is why many of the PP Sport dogs fail as PPDs.
These differences make it so the dogs needed to do PPD work, vs. PP Sport work or Schutzhund-type work, need little predatory instincts and good solid protective instincts. Defensiveness is a nice trait too, but you don't want too much defensive instinct in a PPD or you end with a dog that is either high flight or very suspicious. A dog that is too suspicious will have a hair-trigger and be impossible to use IRL. Typically LGD have a much higher amount of suspicion than a good PPD as they have to be ready for many different types of threats, not just human threats. A lot of LGD are selected strongly for their defensiveness and that is why you see such a polarization in many of the breeds - you have dogs who's first instinct is to run and dogs who first instinct is to kill (when faced with a threat).
In many ways, you could say that PPD training is more akin to "temperament training" while Schutzhund-type training is more traditional training. Both PP Sports Dogs and PPDs are selected for instincts, but PPDs work is based on their instincts to protect while PP Sport work is based on our ability to train a dog using their instincts.
So, to answer your question specifically about Akita, I think that an Akita would do OK in Schutzhund-type work. They have predatory instincts and are biddable given a proper motivator. I think you're less likely to find a good PPD Akita, because many of them have a much higher flight response. However, that's what is impressive with the video above, those Akita are not really being trained in a Schutzhund-style - that's just raw "guard dog training". They're showing really nice protective instincts, and drive to engage, without much cuing.
I referred to it as "sporty" because of how little pressure is put on the dogs by the decoy (which is similar to sport work). The decoy moves in, the dog bites, the decoy runs. The decoy never pushes back on the dog at all, never makes the dog "fight" him... Ann could be correct, this could be a training session and their just working to bolster the dog's confidence - which is GREAT - exactly what they should be doing. Actually, the fact they are using a fence in the video makes me think that they are working the dog's confidence... Nothing bolsters a dog's confidence more than being agitated from behind a fence.
I'll leave with this: Due to the use of their predatory instincts (which makes it fun for the dog), PP Sport training is much "safer" for a dog as there is little risk of "breaking" their confidence, while PPD training is more dangerous for the dog as there is good risk of breaking the dog's confidence if the training is done poorly. This is why temperament testing is so important with PPDs, you would only want to train a dog in PPD work that would succeed at it - and often you are selecting for traits the average dog owner wouldn't want.
Thanks Brad for this post. It was quite interesting to me. I didn't realize, actually, that there was PPD and Protection Sports, though of course that makes sense. I had thought that Schutzhund was the sport vs. working (PPD), so that was useful, as was your description of the training and what makes it sporty. It really does make me yet more interested in the sport aspect, which sound quite fun for the dog. It does sound like something an Akita could do, for fun, though I suspect most Akitas wouldn't be stars (esp. compared to GSDs, Malinois, etc), but it might be something they might enjoy.
@shibamistress - LoL, are you thinking of trying Oskar in some protection sports?
"It does sound like something an Akita could do, for fun, though I suspect most Akitas wouldn't be stars "
LoL, I feel the same way with Tikaani in obedience. He's no border collie or aussie, his focus absolutely sucks compared to them and there are some things that I think he'll never get, but just the fact that he does it to begin with makes a lot of people really impressed. Just like this video impressed a lot of people here about these akitas, using any breed that is not traditionally used in a specific sport seems to really impress, even if they don't do as good as the traditional breeds.
@Calia....I would love to, actually. I've long been interested in it, and when I had a GSD I considered it too. Oskar probably has an ok temperament for it: he loves to play--it's his biggest motivator, has good prey drive, and is pretty biddable. He's a cautious dog, and mildly fearful/suspicious of new things, but it's easy to build his confidence, too.
Probably won't happen, though, as he'd need a lot more basic obedience work first, and then I wouldn't do it if I couldn't find a way of participating that was done through positive training (it's supposed to be fun, right?), and while I haven't checked into such things here, I know even a lot of the higher level obedience work people here are still doing a lot of aversive training, and I just won't put him into that environment, period. He's such a happy dog: he thinks he world is just the most wonderful place (vet visits aside) and I don't want to spoil any of his enthusiasm through aversives.
"In Schutzhund dogs are trained to only bite the sleeve on command. A bite on the sleeve w/o a command, or a bite on a person (not the sleeve) is a DQ." - Brada1878
- In Schutzhund, dogs ARE allowed to bite if "the helper" ("bad guy" with sleeve) shows ANY kind of movement (aggressive or non-aggressive). It's a cue for the dog to bite without having to receive any kind of command from the handler. During a trial situation the dog will DQ if the dog takes too many rebites on the sleeve when the helper is NOT in motion (i.e. when helper is standing still staring at the dog). Also if the dog decides not to out on command, this will also result in a DQ. Actually yes, a bite on the person and not the equipment is a DQ.
- However, in French Ring, dogs ARE NOT allowed to bite the decoy ("bad guy" in body suit) UNLESS the decoy is acting in an aggressive manner OR the handler commands the dog "to attack". So long as the decoy is not acting aggressively, the dog may not bite.
The dog IS allowed "to guard" and follow the decoy either sliently or may bark...again so long as the dog is "mouth off". When the decoy makes an attack or tries to escape (run away) this is a cue for the dog to bite.
This one is a bit more "advanced", it's Mondio Ring training but it's fun to watch =]. This is an "escort", it's similar to the one in French Ring but without all those "distractions".
In both Schutzhund and French Ring, the dogs are scored. In Schutzhund your goal is to KEEP all your points and try not to get deducted any points or try and keep point deduction to a min. In French Ring, I believe you are AWARDED points for each exercise.
In both sports, first the dog is judged either PASS or FAIL depending on how many points you have earned or kept. Then the dog is compared against other dogs' scores. The dog with the highest score "wins" the trial. *Most* handlers goal in these sports is not to be "top dog" and have the highest score (unless you are an experienced handler and are striving for perfection or Worlds). Handlers are just happy when their dog has a passing score, lol!
Both sports are a "team sport", meaning BOTH handler and dog are judged. Main focus is the dog but if the handler makes a mistake it will cost the dog points.
Comments
It was interesting the way the dog acted, totally relaxed and calm until it looked like a command was given, and then it went after the guy in the suit. I know here we've discussed a lot that PPD dogs need to have the drive for it, so I may be wrong about this, but a schutzhund guy once told me they liked dogs for schutzhund that were otherwise calm, and who saw the whole thing as a game. (I know schutzhund is different than PPD too). Watching this reminded me of that, and also made me think about Oskar, who is a chill as can be, but could no doubt be trained to a sleeve if it was fun for him (his problem would be that he's so soft mouthed, we've had to work with him just to get him to play tug, because his he doesn't naturally hold on to anything like that. but we've been teaching him "hold it" so we can play tug games with him). I don't think I'm going into schutzhund, though I used to be quite interested in it, but this did make me think about it.
The part where he runs around the long way, instead of jumping over the fence, is such an Akita move. LOL
@ayk - Do you have any videos of Jindo doing this type of work?
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Tho, she did agree that the decoy put very little pressure on the dogs. I'd love to see how they do under some pressure. They do seem legitimately like they want to F the dude up.
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I laughed out loud when you said it was such an Akita move to go around the fence. I thought so too, except my Akita would have to have figured out he could go around first....he'd likely just stop and stare at the fence otherwise, as he does very much like to do things one way!
One of the things i never hear people talk that much about, esp. when they are all caught up in the breed hype about dignity, aloofness, protectiveness, and all that bs, is they never seem to mention this: Akitas are a bit lazy, and they can be the biggest clowns ever. Doesn't do much for their reputation as bad ass dogs, but it does make them very endearing.
I agree about the amount of pressure. That's why I considered the AA video a training session rather than a test of the dog.
Protection Sports and Schutzhund
Protection Sports is a sport that has evolved from Schutzhund. Schutzhund was originally created as a test to choose military/police dogs in Germany. Dogs who moved on to be military or Police dogs had to pass the Schutzhund test. Schutzhund involves 3 parts: tracking, obedience, and bite work. In Schutzhund-based Protection Sports each dog is judged based on their ability to to do those 3 things, and then titles are given as they pass certain levels of the Schutzhund.
I think there is some competition aspect to Protection Sports as well, where dogs are compared to each other and a winner is chosen, but I am not clear on that part. I don't really do Protection Sports so I don't know.
There is also French Ring, which is another type of Protection Sport - where the decoy wears a full body suit. I don't know all thew rules that apply to that sport, so I'll remain mum on the details. @ShikokuSpirit can probably give more details on the rules of the sports.
In Schutzhund training there are a lot of "cues" for the dog, and those cues really represent the number one difference in training between PPD work and PP Sports. These cues act as markers for the dog, and prepare him/her for the work they're about to do. Generally, a police dog or PP Sports dog knows well in advance that he is about to bite something, because all the cues are in place to lead him to that conclusion. Since these cues exist during training and work, it allows the decoy and handler to train the dogs using more of their natural predatory instincts, which keeps the work fun for the dog.
For police and military dogs who have passed Schutzhund, they do start to get a good deal of pressure put on them, but the handler and decoy are always focused on keeping the dog moving between their predatory instincts and defensive instincts which reduce the overall stress the dogs will encounter (as they are always getting a "break" from the pressure by engaging their predatory instincts).
In a lot of ways, this is similar to the behavioral patterns Bay Dogs use - they are naturally switching between their predatory patterns and defensive patterns while they are baying large game. It's healthier for the dog overall (mentally and physically) as it works all of their natural preservation instincts (unlike a Catch Dog).
So, since Schutzhund and Protection Sports work the dogs using both predatory and defensive instincts, typically you look for a dog who has a really nice predatory instinct when selecting for a sport dog. A dog with a good predatory instinct will be easier to switch from a defensive reaction to a predatory reaction and therefore will appear to take more pressure from the decoy and will enjoy the work more. Schutzhund-type work really uses the dogs predatory instincts to an advantage, it's pretty ingenious, really. You can see how much they utilize the dog's predatory instincts by watching the dogs salivating as soon as they see the sleeve. The trainers have created such a powerful association there that the dogs salivate on sight of the bite-sleeve. In Schutzhund dogs are trained to only bite the sleeve on command. A bite on the sleeve w/o a command, or a bite on a person (not the sleeve) is a DQ.
The use of the dog's predatory behaviors and instincts makes it so almost any dog with a solid predatory instinct can be trained to do Schutzhund-type work, as Schutzhund requires basically no natural protective instinct from the dog. In police and military work, there is a bit more emphasis put on protective instincts, as they do need them to be able to Object Guard, but still, the bulk of the selection is for predatory instincts and working drive as OG can be trained.
Unfortunately, with the sport world becoming more and more popular, breeders who focus on producing dogs for that sport are selecting for "hyper-predators" - dogs who have been selected so strongly for their predatory instincts that they lack other qualities that make them easy to live with - they work great, but can't just chill out on the couch with you - no "off switch", as Dr. Dave would put it.
Personal Protection (Dog) Training
In Personal Protection Training dogs are selected more for their "protective instincts", some people may call this "defensive drive", but IMHO that's an inaccurate label as a dog's defensive instincts include both flight and fight. Some people use the term "fight drive" too, but that too IMHO is a miss-label, as protecting something doesn't always involve fighting.
Anyway, essentially the difference between PPD work and Schutzhund-type work is that in PPD work you don't train the dog to bite. The bulk of PPD training is getting good OB on a dog and then building their confidence to protect while desensitizing them to pressure. The should have already been tested and proved they were willing to bite. Also, in PPD work dogs are not trained using cues the way they are in Schutzhund. So, there is less emphasis placed on predatory instincts because without the proper cue framework for building association it's hard to really utilized those behaviors in the same way they can be used in Schutzhund.
The reason why there is little or no cuing in PPD work is because the idea is that the dog will never know when or where a threat will come, and so it's impossible to train them using cues as there will be no clear consistent cue before they need to preform their role as a PPD. This is why many of the PP Sport dogs fail as PPDs.
These differences make it so the dogs needed to do PPD work, vs. PP Sport work or Schutzhund-type work, need little predatory instincts and good solid protective instincts. Defensiveness is a nice trait too, but you don't want too much defensive instinct in a PPD or you end with a dog that is either high flight or very suspicious. A dog that is too suspicious will have a hair-trigger and be impossible to use IRL. Typically LGD have a much higher amount of suspicion than a good PPD as they have to be ready for many different types of threats, not just human threats. A lot of LGD are selected strongly for their defensiveness and that is why you see such a polarization in many of the breeds - you have dogs who's first instinct is to run and dogs who first instinct is to kill (when faced with a threat).
In many ways, you could say that PPD training is more akin to "temperament training" while Schutzhund-type training is more traditional training. Both PP Sports Dogs and PPDs are selected for instincts, but PPDs work is based on their instincts to protect while PP Sport work is based on our ability to train a dog using their instincts.
So, to answer your question specifically about Akita, I think that an Akita would do OK in Schutzhund-type work. They have predatory instincts and are biddable given a proper motivator. I think you're less likely to find a good PPD Akita, because many of them have a much higher flight response. However, that's what is impressive with the video above, those Akita are not really being trained in a Schutzhund-style - that's just raw "guard dog training". They're showing really nice protective instincts, and drive to engage, without much cuing.
I referred to it as "sporty" because of how little pressure is put on the dogs by the decoy (which is similar to sport work). The decoy moves in, the dog bites, the decoy runs. The decoy never pushes back on the dog at all, never makes the dog "fight" him... Ann could be correct, this could be a training session and their just working to bolster the dog's confidence - which is GREAT - exactly what they should be doing. Actually, the fact they are using a fence in the video makes me think that they are working the dog's confidence... Nothing bolsters a dog's confidence more than being agitated from behind a fence.
I'll leave with this: Due to the use of their predatory instincts (which makes it fun for the dog), PP Sport training is much "safer" for a dog as there is little risk of "breaking" their confidence, while PPD training is more dangerous for the dog as there is good risk of breaking the dog's confidence if the training is done poorly. This is why temperament testing is so important with PPDs, you would only want to train a dog in PPD work that would succeed at it - and often you are selecting for traits the average dog owner wouldn't want.
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"It does sound like something an Akita could do, for fun, though I suspect most Akitas wouldn't be stars "
LoL, I feel the same way with Tikaani in obedience. He's no border collie or aussie, his focus absolutely sucks compared to them and there are some things that I think he'll never get, but just the fact that he does it to begin with makes a lot of people really impressed. Just like this video impressed a lot of people here about these akitas, using any breed that is not traditionally used in a specific sport seems to really impress, even if they don't do as good as the traditional breeds.
Probably won't happen, though, as he'd need a lot more basic obedience work first, and then I wouldn't do it if I couldn't find a way of participating that was done through positive training (it's supposed to be fun, right?), and while I haven't checked into such things here, I know even a lot of the higher level obedience work people here are still doing a lot of aversive training, and I just won't put him into that environment, period. He's such a happy dog: he thinks he world is just the most wonderful place (vet visits aside) and I don't want to spoil any of his enthusiasm through aversives.
- In Schutzhund, dogs ARE allowed to bite if "the helper" ("bad guy" with sleeve) shows ANY kind of movement (aggressive or non-aggressive). It's a cue for the dog to bite without having to receive any kind of command from the handler. During a trial situation the dog will DQ if the dog takes too many rebites on the sleeve when the helper is NOT in motion (i.e. when helper is standing still staring at the dog). Also if the dog decides not to out on command, this will also result in a DQ. Actually yes, a bite on the person and not the equipment is a DQ.
- However, in French Ring, dogs ARE NOT allowed to bite the decoy ("bad guy" in body suit) UNLESS the decoy is acting in an aggressive manner OR the handler commands the dog "to attack". So long as the decoy is not acting aggressively, the dog may not bite.
The dog IS allowed "to guard" and follow the decoy either sliently or may bark...again so long as the dog is "mouth off". When the decoy makes an attack or tries to escape (run away) this is a cue for the dog to bite.
This one is a bit more "advanced", it's Mondio Ring training but it's fun to watch =]. This is an "escort", it's similar to the one in French Ring but without all those "distractions".
In both Schutzhund and French Ring, the dogs are scored. In Schutzhund your goal is to KEEP all your points and try not to get deducted any points or try and keep point deduction to a min. In French Ring, I believe you are AWARDED points for each exercise.
In both sports, first the dog is judged either PASS or FAIL depending on how many points you have earned or kept. Then the dog is compared against other dogs' scores. The dog with the highest score "wins" the trial. *Most* handlers goal in these sports is not to be "top dog" and have the highest score (unless you are an experienced handler and are striving for perfection or Worlds). Handlers are just happy when their dog has a passing score, lol!
Both sports are a "team sport", meaning BOTH handler and dog are judged. Main focus is the dog but if the handler makes a mistake it will cost the dog points.