raw meaty bones frustration
Should I stop feeding Toki anything raw? This doesn't seem to be working out or is this normal to have explosive diarrhea afterwards?
So I decided to try the RMB again with an ox tail. Cut it in half, first morning, went fine. The next morning (yesterday), gave him the other half and last night. I woke up about 4-5 times throughout the night to take him out for explosive diarrhea.
The 5-6 time, which was actually this morning a few hours ago, he vomited up part of a bone and a little bit of yellow bile. I thought this stuff was supposed to pass thru in less than a day? I understand the yellow bile usually comes from having nothing in the stomach for a while and they can't handle the acidity, so the purge the acid.
This is my second attempt, thinking now that his gut is more matured, maybe it will be okay. (last time i gave him a turkey neck, same experience except without the vomit). I am sure I am doing something wrong, please someone enlighten me. I want him to have the health benefits of RMBs but without the upset tummy/diarrhea. I've done a lot of research on raw food and bones but I feel completely powerless with any knowledge i find on it. It seems like there is a ton of contradicting stuff (like cold turkey versus easing in), or I am just overwhelmed, especially after a bad round two of RMBs, I don't know what it is. But i'm obviously missing something. So, I would appreciate advice and ideas on where I am going wrong. I've failed my pup and now he has an upset tummy.
He seems fine otherwise though. Still barking his head off at strangers. Eating. Drinking. Curly tail. Bouncing around, ect...
Got some pumpkin on hand.
I don't know how people do raw food! Its so terrifying
So I decided to try the RMB again with an ox tail. Cut it in half, first morning, went fine. The next morning (yesterday), gave him the other half and last night. I woke up about 4-5 times throughout the night to take him out for explosive diarrhea.
The 5-6 time, which was actually this morning a few hours ago, he vomited up part of a bone and a little bit of yellow bile. I thought this stuff was supposed to pass thru in less than a day? I understand the yellow bile usually comes from having nothing in the stomach for a while and they can't handle the acidity, so the purge the acid.
This is my second attempt, thinking now that his gut is more matured, maybe it will be okay. (last time i gave him a turkey neck, same experience except without the vomit). I am sure I am doing something wrong, please someone enlighten me. I want him to have the health benefits of RMBs but without the upset tummy/diarrhea. I've done a lot of research on raw food and bones but I feel completely powerless with any knowledge i find on it. It seems like there is a ton of contradicting stuff (like cold turkey versus easing in), or I am just overwhelmed, especially after a bad round two of RMBs, I don't know what it is. But i'm obviously missing something. So, I would appreciate advice and ideas on where I am going wrong. I've failed my pup and now he has an upset tummy.
He seems fine otherwise though. Still barking his head off at strangers. Eating. Drinking. Curly tail. Bouncing around, ect...
Got some pumpkin on hand.
I don't know how people do raw food! Its so terrifying
Comments
what are some other alternatives for his dental health other than a raw bone?
I have no problem with those who choose to do a raw diet, it's just not for me. However, I *do* have a huge problem with a breeders who require that their puppy buyers feed raw in their sales contract. The puppy buyer isn't going to know what s/he is doing and that puts the pup at risk IMO... Just irresponsible of the breeder.
Eh eh, sorry, I got off on a tangent. From what I remember reading, it takes quite a while to get used to raw. Any diet change is likely to cause diarrhea and I doubt this is the exception. If you're serious about doing it, you have to do it consistently. Sporadic diet changes don't go over well.
Dry food itself works pretty well for cleaning teeth. My dogs also like denta sticks. We give some rawhide chews very occasionally (Ghidora and Gryphon devour theirs, but Gojira hoards it and then starts a fight if anyone gets close, even though she doesn't see to want to do anything with it). We also work on getting them to let us brush their teeth, and they love the peanut butter flavored doggie toothpaste. Finally, there are places that will do regular dental cleanings for dogs and cats.
Sorry to hear the raw hasn't been going better for you! I've been feeding raw for almost ten years and have successfully transitioned many rescues/guests over to a raw diet over the years.
If you decide to try again, I'd start by giving Toki ground raw for 1 (small) meal/day along with digestive enzymes (a supplement) for a couple weeks to start out. That will give your pup's system time to learn to digest raw food before your pup has to learn to deal with whole bones. Just as human vegetarians who decide to start eating meat again have a hard time digesting it at first, and need to take it slow, a dog who has only ever eaten processed food needs to take it slow. Once you are pretty sure you're pups intestinal tract is ready to digest real food, then try a RMB.
Also, it's my opinion/experience that Japanese breeds do better on chicken or fish than they do on beef. Both of my Akitas got diarrhea when they ate beef, and several of my Shibas fart (a lot) when they eat beef. Also, chicken and fish bones are also much softer so you'd be less likely to have to deal with bone chips or possible choking issues. I know many many people who feed their dogs kibble (for the convenience or the cost, or because they're worried about a balanced diet) who regularly give their dogs an occasional raw chicken wing/neck/back as a treat and tooth cleaner. As long as your dog gets one every week or two, he will not loose the ability to digest it. If your puppy is still small, try a chicken wing (I start my pups out on chicken wings at about 4 weeks), but watch him to make sure he actually chews it (if he tries to swallow it whole, you'll need to go to something larger (like a chicken back or turkey wing)).
Good luck!
My dogs will vomit bits of bone and bile if they are fed something that has bones that they can't digest easily. This happens with pork sometimes so we give pork very very rarely. They almost never have any problems with chicken, which is the main protein in their diet, though my AA was not able to handle raw food until he was about 9 months old. I think chicken is easier to digest.
I don't find it at all complicated to feed, and I've not been terribly convinced by articles I've seen on the risks of raw foods. I've fed all my dogs raw since I had to switch my GSD over when he was 6 months old, and he lived til he was 11 with a raw diet, and my Shibas seem to do well on it too. But again, it doesn't work for every dog.
(on a funny note regarding chicken or fish: my Shibas have varying reactions to fish. One goes crazy for fish, and one is kind of "meh" about it, but my Akita hates it! I tried to give him some raw smelt the other night and he dropped it out of his mouth in horror and will have nothing to do with it! It was pretty funny to see him so excited about a treat, then so disgusted!)
Saya will grind it down and not eat the bone in big chunks only grinded.. Does Toki grind it or eats big pieces of it? beef is pretty dense I never given marrow bones because they look so thick. Saya handles ox tails and beef ribs fine she can only grind little bit of bone off of it.
Have Toki had chicken quarters before? Maybe try them without the skin?
Maybe doing two nights of it was too much need ease into it.
Using a probiotic and maybe prebiotic with eating raw items might help keep gut in order.
Saya transitioned to raw pretty well she did have one poop with mucous first week, bone shards in poop and tiny bits blood in poop(due to intestines being bit irritated I think) After that she did much better. she did have some watery poops on and off, but we got through it. I gave her chicken thighs, drumsticks, quarters without skin or fat for week then on second week she was introduced to tiny amount of pork with each chicken meal.
I don't believe kibble cleans teeth at all most dogs inhale it and when they chew it gets stuck on their teeth when ever I give Saya kibble for her treat she chews it and it gets on her teeth..
I believe their teeth stay cleaner with kibble compared to wet since wet sticks to their teeth much more.
Who knows maybe I'm wrong.
Saya's mouth stunk when she ate kibble and after it didn't.
When Toki got the oxtail did he get anything else? Saya gets ox tails as a whole days meal along with a bit of boneless meat or organs.
As for Japanese breeds not doing good on beef Saya gets mostly red meat, pork, beef, lamb, some times bison or deer. from ground, ribs, to roasts..
She also gets chicken, turkey, and fish like saury, smelt, and mackerel.
For some raw isn't for everyone maybe give tiny bit of cooked meat if you want to offer more variety? Cooked egg, caned sardines or salmon.
Saya goes on and off with liking her antler I put peanut butter on it and it usually revives her interest in it and gets her chewing on it.
Some dogs just like antlers.. I agree split deer antlers are favorite Bella and Saya seems like those better easier to get to the marrow.
Maybe put antler in the container that his kibble is in for few days to give the antler more of a smell?
@saya Toki normally grinds down the bone, but apparently he ate a big piece of it yesterday morning. My guess is he swallowed the last part whole, which would mean I should have taken it away from him. Had I known he would have done this, I certainly would have taken the last bit. He is a very easy chewer. Regular bullsticks (opposed to smoked) last him several weeks. Though, the smoked ones last about a day or two but they give him pudding poop, so we stay away from that. When he ate the oxtail, he had it for breakfast around 9-10am. He had "lunch" at 5-6pm, which was kibble and dinner at around 12am right before bed, kibble also. I've been feeding him three times a day because lately, his stomach has randomly decided it needs food in it the majority of the time or else it will purge the acid in form of yellow bile. No big deal, I've just been feeding him more often (same amount) and it works.
The antler ideas of getting one sawed in half and sitting in the kibble container are both excellent ideas I'll have to toy with.
I really just want some variety of things to chew on and for dental health. Toki seems to get bored of things somewhat easily, so variety helps.
I'm not interested in getting him on a raw diet, but I would actually really love to do so, however I don't think I am ready for that just yet. Too scary at the moment, lol!
(a little off topic and not pressing)
If anyone just happens to know about types of rice best suited for settling puppy stomaches, what exactly is it about rice that is so helpful? Toki got sushi rice this morning (all i had on hand), which is more starchy than normal white rice, which makes it sticky and easy to mold into shapes. I wonder if the starch has anything to do for him?
(and yes, with the leftovers I made onigiri with fried spam on top
he did best on chicken, and he liked to have some veggies with it and some pumpkin too.
Also, chicken bones are softer & easier for the dogs to chew & digest. ~
That is ridiculous. I would never require such a thing from my puppy buyers if I were to breed. I would prefer they fed a high-quality kibble over a crap brand, but I would not require they do so. I feel the same way about altering, vaccines, training, and just about everything else that comes with a pup. It's the buyers decision on how to feed and raise that pup, not mine, even if I would like it to be.
Anywho, I would give chicken a shot since he's reacted so badly to beef, and most people start with that since it's not as rich as other meats. That, or just giving him a very, very, very small slice as a snack. If he is okay with a tiny slice, slowly increase the size until his digestive system is used to handling raw meat. Yes, is does need to get used to it, and a sudden influx of a lot of material he is not accustomed to having can cause upset. Kibble is basically "pre-digested" by the cooking process and is actually more digestible, but not as bioavailable (which is important) as raw foods. Raw foods need more work (enzymes and juices) to break down right so a dog used to eating kibble won't have the right amount of juice produced for raw foods. But once the dog is used to eating it, his stomach produces the correct amount, is robust enough for raw foods, and it is no longer problematic for them to eat.
Also, ox tails are very fatty. A dog unused to eating raw foods (especially raw fat) will most likely explode if they eat a large quantity of fat for the first time. When I began feeding raw foods to Conker, I had to cut off as much skin and fat as possible or he'd get bad diarrhea. Now, he can eat a meal that consists of up to 50% fat and digest it fine.
So, start with something small and boney, but not too small that he can hork it down and get it stuck in his throat. If you are unsure of the size, hold onto it and let him gnaw off bite sized pieces. Remember, only let him have a little bit at first so you don't overload his system. Let him chew off a bit then stick it back into the fridge/freezer until you are ready to let him try a bit more.
I dunno about the rice. Regular white rice, cooked quite thoroughly, is highly and easily digestible by dogs who do not have an adverse reaction to it. Dogs cannot digest rice in it's raw form very well, and even cooking it to humans standards might not be good enough, so you've really got to cook it good if you want to work right. The canned pumpkin, and baked sweet potato, works good too, as you found out.
Conker enjoys sweet potatoes so I give him a baked slice every few days.
It probably can't really be enforced, but.....
It was the same for me...I woke up in the morning to multiple piles of diarrhea (try one million) and bile-y vomit. I was so worried about my baby and he looked so forlorn and exhausted.
@poeticdragon I have never even heard of people requiring raw diets! That blows my mind. While I certainly do think positively about raw diets, albiet not for me, I think the owners should be entitled to take their own dogs nutrition into their own hands. And while I am not a breeder, the breeders I have seen, they seem to all choose good homes for their dogs without diet contracts involved because they are not needed. Why keep the dog away from a good life because he can't go to a home with kibble. Though, @shibamistress brings up a valid point that the buyers have other choices, and I agree with that. As a buyer, you a have to find a breeder that fits with you and does things that you agree with, or else there is not a point in doing business with that breeder.
*as an update on Toki.... his poop looks like pumpkin puree. I was excited because it wasn't projectile diarrhea. I never thought I would be so excited about dog shit.
Some raw feeders make me mad at times they question me on why I give Saya plain Greek yogurt or why I give her blueberries and raspberries sometimes etc..
Saya loves plain Greek yogurt it's more as a snack or treat then part of her diet I don't get it often because most times I forget. Raspberries, blueberries, banana is fruit she likes coarse she only eats tiny bit of it if I give her too much she'll refuse to eat it all only amount she wants..
She doesn't get fruit too often it's more like a yummy treat.. Like I said if she didn't want it she won't eat it, but sometimes she'll eat the fruit I never force her to eat anything she doesn't like. So I put it away for next day or next week.
Some raw feeders are too uptight and treat kibble feeders like their killing their dog by feeding it kibble..
I'm more along the lines what works for you is great if your dog does well on home cooking diet great, if your dog does well on kibble great!
Raw works for Saya her health has improved, but I don't want to come off as type that pushes raw on everyone for some it's not for them. At least I hope I don't come off that way. hehe
Raw or home cooking shouldn't be done full time without research because your taking dogs nutrition in your hands.
As long as the kibble the dog eats has good ingredients and he/she is healthy that's fine for variety can always give items in small amounts like caned dog food, caned sardines, salmon, cooked meat cooked eggs etc..
Bella my parent's boxer is mainly kibble fed she gets wellness core ocean, but I do give raw once to four times a week as a dinner meal instead of kibble.
Bella got chicken quarters without skin or kidney on it once week and eventually I added tiny bit of things with the quarters in small amounts slowly.
I was going to feed Saya a rotation of different kibble brands with each bag used so she got different proteins and stuff and do raw as a once week treat, but with Saya's reverse sneezing and walking issues I decided to do raw full time..
She got her start as getting a raw egg once week as a snack at 6months then 7months I gave her a egg, lamb ribs as a meal for dinner once week and then at 8months I switched her to chicken cold turkey no skin or organs for week. Saya's stomach seems pretty tough she handled the switch fairly easily she has had loose to watery poop probably four or five times or more during her first year on raw, but she got through it.
Month ago she had bad diareah poor girl had to go and I ignored her signs.
She had to poop again in middle of the night so I took her out then she was fine and had loose poop in am. I didn't give her breakfast and gave her a skinless chicken drumstick for a bland meal and next day she did fine so I fed normally.
Her poop looked like it had a lot of treats so I think it was mainly due to her getting too much treats that day just my guess who knows maybe she had upset tummy..
Hope he's feeling better my vet in New Orleans always reccomended boiled chicken with rice for bland diet during diarrhea.. Pumpkin works great for it too.
No one on here really pushes raw on anyone it seems, which I love that about this forum.
Thanks for all of the helpful advice! I appreciate it!
I actually had a photoshoot today with fruit and Toki got to come along and try some new good eats. He seems to like pomegranates, but I wasn't sure if they were okay so I didn't let him eat it. He doesn't care for strawberries or raspberries. He is such a little man, he doesn't like things too sweet, lol!
I should look into the plain yogurt thing. I've seen that pop up several times already, so I should probably get on that. I know for a fact he loves it after there was an unsupervised incident with Toki and yogurt, haha! Though, I don't really know why people would question yogurt as a snack or treat. It is healthy.
http://www.dailydogshow.com/pomegranate-is-bad-for-dogs/
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081118173313AAt4jfO