How skiny is too skinny?
Conker has always been a skinny dog. He was way skinny when he was younger, and in December he got a bit too skinny for my liking. However, he is also very tall. His legs are like, almost sighthounish, so that really makes him look even worse than he really is. This was what he looked like in December.
Right now Conker weighs about 23.5 pounds and 18 inches at the shoulder.
First off, his head looks HUGE in this picture, so ignore that. But this is his profile. His chest isn't very deep, but he's got quite the thin waist going on there. It's a little hard to see because a bit of fliff is in the way, but it goes up a bit farther than that.
He's never been very round-shaped, always kinda like a torpedo. Again it's a bit hard to see, but his waist dips in quite a bit here too. His ribs are easily felt with a thin muscle covering.
You can see the dent behind his ribs a little in this one. I know there should be a bit of a dent, but on Conker' it's more of a DENT than a dent.
His pelvic and hip bones are pretty prominent. You don't notice so much when his tail is curled, but if you uncurl it, you can see those bones at the top bumping out. The lighter spot is where the bone is. These are very easily felt, as is the spine between them.
Sorry for terrible picture quality, the camera has gone missing and my cellular phone sucks at imaging.
Anyways, I'd like your input on this. Normally I'd just feed him more, but that's where the problem lies. He has turned into an immensely picky dog over the past couple months. He usually eats a large variety of raw meats, organs, boney meats, a couple grains like oatmeal and quinoa, as well as things like eggs and yogurt. I tried a couple kibbles that I found he could tolerate, and he'd eat them at first, then lose interest very quickly. Even splitting the feedings into two meals didn't work so well.
Anyways, I've been trying his raw foods again, and so far, he'll pick at some things one day, then leave them the next, then after that, eat everything, then go back to picking. Yet again, I normally wouldn't mind much, but he's always been skinny, and I've noticed that since he began to refuse meals, he's lost a bit of weight.
Vet said he was normal. No parasites. He acts the same, has boundless energy, loves to play, harass the Girls, and go for hikes. He drinks normal amounts of water, his poop is fine (when he'll eat), no weird mucus, no cough, no wheezing, nothing out of the ordinary except his apatite. Which, I might add, is HUGE, just not for whatever is offered to him. He will seek out MY food and attempt to steal it, then all of a sudden he doesn't want that and will try to steal from the other dogs.
I have tried tough love, cooking the meat partially, even adding stuff like molasses and honey, and all he'll do is either lick a bit off, pick through the food, or outright refuse it. Hes gone a whole week without eating what I've offered in the past, and I don't like that at all due to the weight issue.
It's odd, since sometimes he'll eat everything offered then suddenly not want any of it. And he acts like he wants it while I am preparing his food, but when I set it down, he'll turn his nose up in disgust and give me strange looks.
I really don't have a clue what is going on right now.
Has anyone had a similar experience? I don't think it's hypothyroidism, since that usually makes Shibas blow up, not lose weight. But, can it make them slim instead? I don't know too much about it.
Right now Conker weighs about 23.5 pounds and 18 inches at the shoulder.
First off, his head looks HUGE in this picture, so ignore that. But this is his profile. His chest isn't very deep, but he's got quite the thin waist going on there. It's a little hard to see because a bit of fliff is in the way, but it goes up a bit farther than that.
He's never been very round-shaped, always kinda like a torpedo. Again it's a bit hard to see, but his waist dips in quite a bit here too. His ribs are easily felt with a thin muscle covering.
You can see the dent behind his ribs a little in this one. I know there should be a bit of a dent, but on Conker' it's more of a DENT than a dent.
His pelvic and hip bones are pretty prominent. You don't notice so much when his tail is curled, but if you uncurl it, you can see those bones at the top bumping out. The lighter spot is where the bone is. These are very easily felt, as is the spine between them.
Sorry for terrible picture quality, the camera has gone missing and my cellular phone sucks at imaging.
Anyways, I'd like your input on this. Normally I'd just feed him more, but that's where the problem lies. He has turned into an immensely picky dog over the past couple months. He usually eats a large variety of raw meats, organs, boney meats, a couple grains like oatmeal and quinoa, as well as things like eggs and yogurt. I tried a couple kibbles that I found he could tolerate, and he'd eat them at first, then lose interest very quickly. Even splitting the feedings into two meals didn't work so well.
Anyways, I've been trying his raw foods again, and so far, he'll pick at some things one day, then leave them the next, then after that, eat everything, then go back to picking. Yet again, I normally wouldn't mind much, but he's always been skinny, and I've noticed that since he began to refuse meals, he's lost a bit of weight.
Vet said he was normal. No parasites. He acts the same, has boundless energy, loves to play, harass the Girls, and go for hikes. He drinks normal amounts of water, his poop is fine (when he'll eat), no weird mucus, no cough, no wheezing, nothing out of the ordinary except his apatite. Which, I might add, is HUGE, just not for whatever is offered to him. He will seek out MY food and attempt to steal it, then all of a sudden he doesn't want that and will try to steal from the other dogs.
I have tried tough love, cooking the meat partially, even adding stuff like molasses and honey, and all he'll do is either lick a bit off, pick through the food, or outright refuse it. Hes gone a whole week without eating what I've offered in the past, and I don't like that at all due to the weight issue.
It's odd, since sometimes he'll eat everything offered then suddenly not want any of it. And he acts like he wants it while I am preparing his food, but when I set it down, he'll turn his nose up in disgust and give me strange looks.
I really don't have a clue what is going on right now.
Has anyone had a similar experience? I don't think it's hypothyroidism, since that usually makes Shibas blow up, not lose weight. But, can it make them slim instead? I don't know too much about it.
Comments
He certainly is a rangy looking guy. Wonder if there is a little Jindo somewhere in his ancestry.
He's from a puppy mill originally, and a lot of mill dogs tend to be on the rangy side. He was also neutered quite young by the shelter I got him at, but I don't know if that actually affected his height or not.
It was very interesting to see him beside well-bred Shibas when I went to AZ in December. He's recognizable as a Shiba, but the body types are way different.
When you have a chance or the money, you may want to do a DNA test on Conker just out of curiosity.
The picky food behavior may be a result of growing up in a puppy mill environment.
The DNA test would be interesting, just to see if anything came up. A lot of them I am leery of, though, since I've seen some pretty wacky results. Maybe I'll do one on my two mixes since I know exactly what their parents were, to see if it gives me any wrong answers.
Saya first year of raw she had some bouts of pickiness, but she eventually came to love kidneys, tongue and heart after offering tiny bits each meal then putting up if she didn't eat it.
I seen other owners who say their shiba is picky with kibble so they rotate each bag or something. I don't know background of their dogs forgot..
Is shiba as a breed picky with food?
Yeah going without for whole week isn't good.
I mean wolves are on gorge fast type diet due to their natural lifestyle, but if need to they eat fruits and things and even then they catch mice till they get something more substantial..
I think tough love works sometimes, but sometimes it doesn't.
I'm not sure especially since cooking it won't help and so on..
Bella our boxer is hypothyroid and she would be lethargic and not want to play or get happy if you were around except when mom came home she loves her mommy. hehe
Also would get hyper with the vet and be happy to be with them.
They took blood and yeah test came back for hypothyroidism amazing how much change she has now she is on the meds.
She no longer spooks and runs off and acts afraid! I wonder if that was partially due to hypothyroidism plus dad yelling at her. Then she got lethargic once she got worse.. I dunno.
Yeah hypothyroidism can cause weight gain. Bella did gain weight I think she was 58lbs when she is usually 52 or 55 lb normal.
Coarse dad was giving her way more kibble in am then she needed so could be why.
Maybe a blood check could see if there is anything? I dunno.
Good he's very energetic because poor Bella she was so tired just layed on couch didn't want to play etc. She is a boxer so was very odd. Poor Saya would play bow scream at Bella because even with her bringing toys to her, running past Bella and play bowing Bella wouldn't play like usual.
She was sad her boxer pal was broken. hehe
I hope he gets better Who knows could be due to being puppy mill dog. I know you didn't just get him, but who knows.
Odd especially if teeth are good and not hurting.
1) I found I needed to add half a dozen eggs weekly to her diet (in addition to the 1 cup of kibble, 6-8 oz raw, and 2 oz cheese she was getting daily). I'm not sure how much dairy Conker can tolerate.
2) in order to get her to eat more I was adding dried anchovies and dried sardines (no salt or anything else added, I used the japanese type made for soup stock). Bonito flakes are also my friend.
3) decent goat cheese - chevre, plain. Cheapest I've found is at trader joes for about $4.75/lb. I was smearing it into kibble, and onto other food. You're looking to add as much fat as you can without upsetting his stomach.
4) my breeder suggested satin balls, as well as mac and cheese if things got really bad. Some breeders I met at a show suggested Fromm's canned food, Merrick's canned food, and also canned corned beef. The only one of these I've tried is satin balls as I'm a bit uncomfortable with the others (and a dogsitter gave her Merrick's which I had looked over first and she got quite ill). I've been advised by breeders (and mine is a proponent of raw) that fat and carbs will help her gain the weight.
I don't think he's too thin. We struggle with Vi's weight, but she is healthy, just built very slender with a seemingly very high metabolism and based on photos and description, she's thinner than conker. The real danger is that when they get sick they have so little excess that it only takes a day to get to an unhealthy weight, that and she gets a bit cold in winter. I know Conker has soom food intolerances so I'm uncertain how many of these suggestions are applicable for him. On the shiba side @lindsayt had a good whispered conversation with specific weight gain advice. When I'm not on a mobile device I'll include you on a response post.
I am curious if it's some sort of medical thing, but he hasn't shown any other signs of anything that I find abnormal. And I asked my vet about it, but she said he was healthy, and since he didn't have any obvious signs of anything wrong, to just try to get him to eat. Not too incredibly helpful there... I am reluctant to bring him back in because I have no idea what type of tests to ask for, since other than refusing food, there's nothing out of the ordinary going on. Plus I do not have a lot of money and cannot afford to pay for something that will not give an answer, so I can't just go in and ask for a ton of stuff to be run.
I do not think it's the heat, since he had been refusing food since before it got warm.
I was able to get him to eat a chicken back and half his meat last night, as well as a small amount of oatmeal. That is equivalent to just over one cup of kibble, which he does not do so well on. He needs twice that amount or he loses weight, which is what's been happening. When an already skinny dog goes off his food and starts to lose weight, I get worried.
He did eat all his meat today, but only because I mixed some of my roasted chicken and drippings into it. That's what he wanted, and in order to get it, he had to eat the rest of the meat, which was ground up so he couldn't pick very easily. But he won't touch anything else so far today.
He really likes raw eggs and will eat a lot of them (he normally gets an egg every day), and if it were up to him he'd only get eggs and roasted chicken. But that doesn't give him all the nutrients he needs, and if I meddle too much with it (adding supplements) he won't touch it.
Normally Conker gets around 820 calories a day. He would get about 10 ounces of meaty items (chicken back, muscle meat, some organs, etc.) and a cup of oatmeal with an egg and some canned fish mixed in. All that just to keep him lean. On kibble he needs over 2 cups, which is what my active 50 pound dog eats and stays in excellent shape.
He only showed interest in some chicken jerky treats that Sandra gave me, and a little of my beef jerky but I really don't want him eating that beef jerky. Too many odd things in it that I don't know if they are good or bad for dogs.
Conker decided Zuke's treats were okay while we were in the Badlands, as well as some freeze dried treats I had. Can't remember the brand. So he got a ton of those. Still zero interest in kibble. He ate part of an egg and a few slivers of sardine, but refused everything else. (This stumped me. Eggs were my go-to item for when he refused food, and now they are bad? I don't get it.)
Anywho, back at home, he ate a very small handful of kibble last night and today. Not enough to count towards anything productive. I tried about three different brands, but he wanted none of them. Refused eggs too. I tried a cornish hen, but he wouldn't even lick it.
Not too long ago, while I was sitting at the comp chatting and munching on a marinated, grilled, very rare hunk of steak, Conker decided it was heavenly and helped himself to a piece. Before I knew what he'd done, it was gone. So I gave him more. He ate about 6-8 ounces of steak (I wasn't keeping track. I was too excited about him eating something to do that.) which is about how much meat he'd get in a normal daily raw meal. I'm not too happy about him wanting MY steak, due to the marinade, and I hope that's not why he wanted it. But I'm gonna try steak again tomorrow, raw, and if he won't eat it, lightly grilled.
It would be nice if he'd eat this, since he's lost a bit of weight again. He's down to about 23.3 pounds, and is starting to show some rib.
We took a full panel and her pancreas were slightly low. Not pancreatitis, but the opposite. (I've yet to pick up the copy of the results so I don't have specifics.) The vet seems to be leaning towards exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (EPI) and she refused to vaccinate PoongSoon. The plan is to wait and see a couple of weeks.
I'm pretty unconvinced that it's EPI since skinny dogs are common, but I'm wondering if your vet did a blood test to rule it out for your dog.
I much prefer homemade to premade too. Cost mostly, but also then I know what I'm feeding. I've been thinking about getting a grinder too. I've been thinking about this one since the comments mention grinding bones for dog food with it: http://www.amazon.com/STX-TURBOFORCE-3000-SERIES-ATTACHEMENT/dp/B0012KJBR0/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=3DEKWP6VQ8QNH&coliid=IC5L7OX2S8QKZ
Kind of sounds like he's just one of those dogs that doesn't like to eat. I've had one before and it was hard to keep weight on her.